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[OU Discussion] Dugtrio


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image.png.1cf3f9308d05fb042df455a6ae8689c1.png

 

What is this?

 

This is a discussion thread for the community to share their opinion of Dugtrio's presence in the PokeMMO OverUsed (OU) tier and the impact of its ability Arena Trap.

 

What to know?

 

Dugtrio and its ability is a controversial topic in PokeMMO, with discussion often flipping back and forth on whether it is broken, uncompetitive, unhealthy for the meta or even a thing that shouldn't be considered for a ban. All this discussion largely comes from Arena Trap, invalidating some susceptible Pokemon in the tier which die as it is pivoted by a U-turn / Volt Switch, predicted switch, a revenge killer, or even in a direct switch helped by Focus Sash.

Trap is a unique strategy that can be incredibly infuriating for opponents, but a strategy nevertheless. Dugtrio is effective in balanced, offensive and mostly stall teams, and its unique speed tier with access to priority can keep hyper-offensive teams and overpowered threats in check.

Dugtrio's capability to eliminate threats for its teammates is incredibly amazing, making many sweepers in the game more reckless than they should, is capable of taking off the map common counters of various Pokemon such as Togekiss, Espeon, Reuniclus, Volcarona, Gengar, Xatu, Shedinja (most common allies of Dugtrio), so we get great synergy and cores when teambuilding around this ability because it makes more restrictive the options to deal with the allies of Dugtrio. 

Explaining all this context, Dugtrio + Arena Trap is being considered for a possible ban from the Over-Used Tier. It currently meets several banworthy definitions, whether that is uncompetitive (invalidates certain elements of play), unhealthy (restricts the meta), or Uber-support (makes very easier other Pokemon to sweep).
 

Noteworthy sets:
Standard Set (Focus Sash):
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Reversal / Sucker Punch
- Stealth Rock / Swords Dance

Choice Set (Choice Band):
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Aerial Ace / Pursuit
- Sucker Punch

Damage calculations when trapping:
(common spreads in the tier)

Spoiler

252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 93-109 (26 - 30.5%)
252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 82-97 (60.7 - 71.8%)
252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kabutops: 138-164 (102.2 - 121.4%) 
252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Espeon: 108-127 (77.1 - 90.7%) 
252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Espeon: 70-84 (40.6 - 48.8%)
252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 72-85 (49.6 - 58.6%)
252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 72-85 (40.6 - 48%)
252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kingdra: 76-90 (50.6 - 60%)
252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 52-63 (27 - 32.8%)
252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 37-45 (19.2 - 23.4%)
252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Blissey: 285-336 (78.7 - 92.8%)
252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 127-150 (35 - 41.4%)
252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 48-57 (23.1 - 27.5%)
252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Suicune: 64-76 (30.9 - 36.7%)
252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 134-158 (64.7 - 76.3%)
252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 134-158 (76.5 - 90.2%)
252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 42-51 (31.1 - 37.7%)
252 Atk Dugtrio Aerial Ace vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 140-168 (103.7 - 124.4%)

252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Torkoal: 84-98 (47.4 - 55.3%)
252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 116-138 (74.8 - 89%)
252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Metagross: 86-104 (45.9 - 55.6%)
252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Infernape: 188-224 (124.5 - 148.3%)
252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 76-90 (41.5 - 49.1%)
252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 192-228 (132.4 - 157.2%) 
252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Weavile: 102-120 (70.3 - 82.7%) 
252 Atk Dugtrio Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Weavile: 136-160 (93.7 - 110.3%)
252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 256-304 (176.5 - 209.6%)
252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mamoswine: 85-102 (45.9 - 55.1%)
252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gallade: 102-120 (71.3 - 83.9%)
252 Atk Dugtrio Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 51-60 (34 - 40%)
252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 216-254 (116.7 - 137.2%) 
252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 76-90 (42.2 - 50%)
252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 76-90 (35.8 - 42.4%)
252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darmanitan: 230-272 (127.7 - 151.1%)
252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Reuniclus: 63-75 (29 - 34.5%)
252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Reuniclus: 91-108 (41.9 - 49.7%)
252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 64-76 (28.9 - 34.3%)
252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 6 Def Amoonguss: 94-112 (42.5 - 50.6%)
252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 43-52 (23.7 - 28.7%)
252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 6 Def Ferrothorn: 58-69 (32 - 38.1%) 
252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 78-93 (51.6 - 61.5%) 
252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mienshao: 108-127 (77.1 - 90.7%)
252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mienshao: 108-127 (62.7 - 73.8%)
252 Atk Dugtrio Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 272-320 (170 - 200%) 
252 Atk Dugtrio Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Volcarona: 180-216 (93.7 - 112.5%)

Give us ur input!

Edited by Lumiere
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But on a real note tho, Dugtrio doesn't add anything competitively other than the existence of a a boring style which relies heavily of trapping Tyranitar to prevent sand from killing Shedinja which is immune to many typings. One part of the chain goes weak and that whole team gets thrown under the bus. Good day for Tyranitar users

Edited by ArtOfKilling
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Yes , yes , yes , THANK YOU! THANK YOU 100 TIMES! ❤️

 

Finally we can discuss about this expect there is not much to discuss , to me dug dosen t have uber support characteristics , however dug and its arena trap it is as  unhealthy and uncompetitive as it can get , main problem being how well it pairs with its best buddys magic bound espeon and shedninja , this synergy alone is so powerful that despite the format being 6v6 - 1v1 at a time , dug makes it fell like a 1v3 at a time and you can t do anything regarding this combo , some may say use x or use y and this makes it even more restrictive to teambuilding

 

There is no positive aspect dug and its anthics bring to the game idc what anyone says dug is toxic and promots a toxic playstyle  , please ban it soon

Thank you

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1 minute ago, gbwead said:

Also, here is an idea. How about not buffing Dugtrio's attack from 80 to 100? Dugtrio was litteraly NU by usage back when it had a base stat of 80... 

Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think I would change that much *currently*. At the time he was NU/UU, we didn't have Espeon Magic Bounce for example, Dugtrio's biggest partner currently, and we also didn't have Serperior contrary, Dugtrio's third biggest partner. Things have changed, again maybe I'm wrong, but a damage change on him wouldn't change what he currently does that much

Screenshot_20240205-172852.png

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14 minutes ago, Matthzinxl said:

Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think I would change that much *currently*. At the time he was NU/UU, we didn't have Espeon Magic Bounce for example, Dugtrio's biggest partner currently, and we also didn't have Serperior contrary, Dugtrio's third biggest partner. Things have changed, again maybe I'm wrong, but a damage change on him wouldn't change what he currently does that much

Screenshot_20240205-172852.png

Espeon and Serperior have been OU for a while. That's nothing new. Togekiss and Volcarona are also well supported by Dugtrio and have lost a lot of viability over the years. We are not in a specific meta where Dugtrio is suddenly more powerful. Dugtrio will always have mons to support and others to trap. The atk buff just increases the quantity of mons that can be supported by Dugtrio and the number of mons Dugtrio can trap. 

Edit: Also, Espeon and Defog Serperior (not any Serperior) are not as big of threats as Togekiss and Volcarona were in 2019.

Edited by gbwead
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Well, I think that after a long time without giving my public opinion like tc in the forum, now is the time to do it again.

I will try to start from the essentials, Arena trap is such an uncompetitive skill that it limits a fundamental part of playing this, switching, there is no counterplay when dugtrio enters the field to eliminate a mon at the right time, since Dugtrio enters the field well, you know that you have lost a poke and you have no way to avoid that, some will probably say "Shed shell or shuca berry" to which I proceed to answer, Are you seriously going to sacrifice an item that is so important in most of dugtrio-only cases that you probably won't encounter in every duel? In addition to the fact that Tyra Shuca or others end up losing vs Reversal Dugtrio.

 

The next point I will address is that unlike normal matches, from the moment you see a dugtrio on the other team you know that the victory is decided by the matchup, it is just a matter of waiting for dugtrio to come in to eliminate your wincon vs. that team.

I will give an example:
We have a team with dugtrio, espeon calm mind, volcarona safeguard and togekiss (other things can be added that benefit more from Tyra or Volca not being there), tyranitar can eliminate one, but what happens then? You can't let trap rocks go for free because Espeon is usually good against top rock setters, so most of those matchups are played without hazards. This is what will happen, he will drop the one who is least useful to him, dugtrio will come in and eliminate tyranitar, then he only proceeds to win with one of these because his way of stopping them has been eliminated, this only reveals that the matchup is what but it influences when playing a team with dugtrio, and that doesn't just happen with tyranitar. Excadrill, volcarona infernape, gallade etc have the same problem, they are all good against these teams but it is a matter of time before they fall against dugtrio.

 

Next point, limitation when building, dugtrio even has a fundamental role when someone builds a team, because you know that you can't play so many things that touch the floor and are eliminated, that limits the number of combinations that you may want on your team, I don't think these teams are invincible, but if you fill many ways to counter these teams besides tyranitar you end up being weak to another form of equipment, for example rain or some offense, etc.

The worst thing is that wanting to abuse these teams is complicated, taking advantage of the momentum that dugtrio leaves is almost zero, the example I will give is gyarados or dragonite, when playing it with mandibuzz or porygon they make it impossible to take advantage of these 2, the next offensive that is What happens to me is scizor, but you see that volcarona and zapdos are just as viable with dugtrio, the only way I see to be able to punish dugtrio well is with hydreigon, but volcarona is still an answer to this one, so you should pray accordingly having the right sweepers to be able to abuse dugtrio, this is further aggravated because the rock setters that can place stealth rocks vs espeon or xatu like excadrill end up being eliminated by dugtrio, which further confirms my theory that the matchup vs these teams eliminates all types of skills.

 

The other topic I want to touch on is that the reward of playing dugtrio is much greater than the risk itself, as the generation progressed we received teleport which is a way to bring dugtrio without losing its focus sash, teleport spam or baton pass in these teams are in charge of keeping the dugtrio sash untouchable even after eliminating the threat that you had to erase, so it gives you the room for error to be able to eliminate another mon that is difficult for you or one that is weak.
In addition to the fact that it can greatly influence the viability and use of some pokes, sword dance excadrill is almost invisible and can really be a good option in the meta, but why would you take a mon that only entered the field to be erased by a mole of 3 heads?

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I agree about everything regarding Dugtrio limiting teambuilding and sometimes screwing players over based on match up before duels even begin.However, let's not act like playing Dugtrio puts you automatically at an advantage because that's not true.

 

30 minutes ago, Huargensy said:

I don't think these teams are invincible, but if you fill many ways to counter these teams besides tyranitar you end up being weak to another form of equipment, for example rain or some offense, etc.

This statement is not related to Dugtrio. Teambuilding is all about compromise and teambuilding against Dugtrio's team do not make you more vulnerable compared to teambuilding vs any other archetype. You do not need to play obscur unviable mons has counter measures to Dugtrio's teams, plenty of mons can do that on their own or can do that as a pairing with mons they naturally want to play with. 

 

46 minutes ago, Huargensy said:

The other topic I want to touch on is that the reward of playing dugtrio is much greater than the risk itself, as the generation progressed we received teleport which is a way to bring dugtrio without losing its focus sash, teleport spam or baton pass in these teams are in charge of keeping the dugtrio sash untouchable even after eliminating the threat that you had to erase, so it gives you the room for error to be able to eliminate another mon that is difficult for you or one that is weak.
In addition to the fact that it can greatly influence the viability and use of some pokes, sword dance excadrill is almost invisible and can really be a good option in the meta, but why would you take a mon that only entered the field to be erased by a mole of 3 heads?

Absolutely not. The reward of playing Dugtrio is not much greater than the risk itself. Most teams around Dugtrio have extreme flaws because of Dugtrio. Sometimes Dugtrio has nothing to trap or nothing valuable to trap to justifty its spot on a team. When that happens, Dugtrio becomes a liability and this happens all the time. It's not some rare occurence. Dugtrio brings nothing defensively to teams and relies on Focus Sash, heavy support from its allied mons and/or prediction in order to come on the field. Whatever advantage Dugtrio brings to teams, that advantage comes at a huge teambuilding cost. Sometimes the advantage is worth the cost, sometimes it's not. That's why Dugtrio teams are all about match up fishing. And I agree that can be gross from a competitive stand point, but that doesn't make Dugtrio broken. Unhealthy, that's arguable. AT being uncompetitive to an unaccpetable degree, that's also arguable. But given the current state of OU, Dugtrio is far from broken (UBER).

 

As for SD Excadrill, we surely don't see it often (that doesn't mean it's unplayable) because we have stuff like Chomp, Breloom, Gliscor, etc. everywhere. You can't blame Dugtrio with less than 4% usage as the main reason Excadrill SD is not played more, that's riddiculous. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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56 minutes ago, gbwead said:

. But given the current state of OU, Dugtrio is far from broken (UBER).

 

 

 

 

 

 

At no point did I say that it was broken, but it is unhealthy and indirectly affects the meta from many points. Does limiting teambuilding and favoring the fish matchup much more seem healthy to you? Out of other points that can be touched

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Had to agree with huar. However, the biggest problem of dugtrio is the combination of their unhealthiness/uncompetitive-ness, and the state of the metagaming right now. There is so many threats we can't cover everything, so we have to be selective and focus on the most used ones, with countering a lower one being a bonus. And given that dugtrio has lower use, most teams are simply not ready for him. The fact that our metagaming is unstable makes our teambuild weird, in a attempt to cover threats(My team would love a taunt serperior, but given that Rain is a bigger threat i'm forced into AV serp.), and even that proves to not be enough

Edited by caioxlive13
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9 minutes ago, Huargensy said:

At no point did I say that it was broken, but it is unhealthy and indirectly affects the meta from many points. Does limiting teambuilding and favoring the fish matchup much more seem healthy to you? Out of other points that can be touched

A lot of mons limit teambuilding and favors match up fishing. When it comes to Dugtrio, I agree that a case can be made that Dugtrio does those things to an unacceptable degree. I personally don't think Dugtrio is a problem, but I can see why someone might feel it should be banned and that's fine by me.

 

Like I said, I agree with what you said at first. I don't agree with the later portion of your post where you painted a picture of Dugtrio giving an unfair advantage (implying brokeness) to whoever plays it, because that's not the case imo.

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I am a big fan of darmanitan, tyranitar, kabutops and I hate dugtrio, But I think dugtrio is far from uber.....

 

Dugtrio leads a spetcial and intersting playstyle. half of the game will rely on rock setters and defogers from both side, a team with weak rock setter and dugtrio's prey will lose to this kind of playstyle for sure, because that's how dugtrio team works, and that how players design dugtrio team.

 

Spetcialize some pokemon will reflect this bad feeling back to Dugdrio team, Such as Steathrock hydregon, mentor smash Metagross. Or CB rockblast ttar/kabutops.

 

Dugtrio team does not limit the choice of pokemon, CM/skill swap Brongzone, NP rotom, Timid CM Suicune has been picked by many high elo players to solve Dugtrio+Togekiss. It makes team builds even more. 

 

Finally, we banned DM hydre, because with draco mentor hydregon has no safety check, We nerfed Gallade, because Sableye was the only solution. What dugtrio does? traping some of togekiss/espeon checks but there are still plenty of checks left, they check togekiss/espeon also wont trapped by it.

 

It is not healthy for a team to have a chance of winning against all team types, bad mu is most common thing in this game. I play rain these days and I have almost no chance to win heavy trick room team, They can just set tr and kill 3 mons with no brain and thinking. Every team will meet this kind of problem, some hates stall and some hates rain. This kind of thing is very unlikely, just like Dugtrio's usage.

 

 

 

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I totally agreed with what huargensy said, dugtrio is unhealthy to the meta and should get banned. Not because of it is broken or something, but due to the boring play style it leads.

Especially in the current rank game, we can see there are so many dugtrio team with togekiss (Volca, Superior, Shedinja, Espeon). The main reason of this phenomenon is due to the dugtrio teams has its no-risk playstyle. The only thing player need to do is strength up and trap the opponents threat. This kind of team has its SOP to most of situation and don't need to think or take risk; moreover, this kind of team highly rely on RNG in game, whatever finch, paralysis, flame body.. These facts show that this playstyle is not only boring, but also rely on luck which is not healthy in the meta.

 

A common dugtrio team nowdays is: defensive superior, defensive Volca, Sp defensive Pory2, Defensive Espeon, togekiss and dugtrio. You can see this team appear in rank really often and no more creative, due to it has the SOP to the current common team and pokemon like trap Tyran, Kabutops... This team highly rely on the RNG and meta, the common strategy is safe switching and waiting for the hax or trap the threaten. After that player only need to strength up and recover. The common solution facing this team is SD Weavile which is also restricted by the meta, and it is not a good choice to being the sweeper(bullet punch, mach punch, stealth rock).

 

Thus I think the dugtrio should get banned in the PVP game.

 

Edited by bobliu
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39 minutes ago, Ziiiiio said:

 

 

Dugtrio leads a spetcial and intersting playstyle. half of the game will rely on rock setters and defogers from both side, a team with weak rock setter and dugtrio's prey will lose to this kind of playstyle for sure, because that's how dugtrio team works, and that how players design dugtrio team.

 

Spetcialize some pokemon will reflect this bad feeling back to Dugdrio team, Such as Steathrock hydregon, mentor smash Metagross. Or CB rockblast ttar/kabutops.

 

Dugtrio team does not limit the choice of pokemon, CM/skill swap Brongzone, NP rotom, Timid CM Suicune has been picked by many high elo players to solve Dugtrio+Togekiss. It makes team builds even more. 

 

 

 

 

Damn, Rotom Nasty doesn't can vs Serpe and it's also one that they use a lot, not even Chansey or Shedinja, which are things they usually accompany them with, Hydre's most used set suffers from the same thing, Metagross and Kabutops are Trapp by Dugtrio, after all that's what dugtrio is for to eliminate those who can place sr in front of espeon, if you play trio toxic you deal with suicune, and suicune doesn't touch shedinja either so you end up losing due to pp stall between shedinja-> baton pass, manual change to shedinja again until you have to switch to suicune, bronzong cm suffers from the same thing, none of what you mentioned is relatively good against certain matchups vs dugtrio, except that hydreigon nasty does have dark pulse or flame, although nasty sub is preferred before, of course In case bronzong skill swap is too far-fetched, searching for such specific things reflects the problem a lot, druddigon can put a lot of pressure to the point of being able to leave rocks on this team, let's play it

 

I don't consider dugtrio to be an uber by itself, but a condition for a suspect is not to be healthy for the meta, although it is not considered an uber like sd chomp or gallade could be, it does not contribute anything healthy to the meta, arena trap is anything but competitive

For some reason he has been banned in smogon since the incorporation of focus sash

 

 

Edited by Huargensy
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1 hour ago, Ziiiiio said:

I am a big fan of darmanitan, tyranitar, kabutops and I hate dugtrio, But I think dugtrio is far from uber.....

 

Dugtrio leads a spetcial and intersting playstyle. half of the game will rely on rock setters and defogers from both side, a team with weak rock setter and dugtrio's prey will lose to this kind of playstyle for sure, because that's how dugtrio team works, and that how players design dugtrio team.

 

Spetcialize some pokemon will reflect this bad feeling back to Dugdrio team, Such as Steathrock hydregon, mentor smash Metagross. Or CB rockblast ttar/kabutops.

 

Dugtrio team does not limit the choice of pokemon, CM/skill swap Brongzone, NP rotom, Timid CM Suicune has been picked by many high elo players to solve Dugtrio+Togekiss. It makes team builds even more. 

 

Finally, we banned DM hydre, because with draco mentor hydregon has no safety check, We nerfed Gallade, because Sableye was the only solution. What dugtrio does? traping some of togekiss/espeon checks but there are still plenty of checks left, they check togekiss/espeon also wont trapped by it.

 

It is not healthy for a team to have a chance of winning against all team types, bad mu is most common thing in this game. I play rain these days and I have almost no chance to win heavy trick room team, They can just set tr and kill 3 mons with no brain and thinking. Every team will meet this kind of problem, some hates stall and some hates rain. This kind of thing is very unlikely, just like Dugtrio's usage.

 

 

 

I agree that bad match ups are a thing and do exist , they will exist even with or without dug in the tier however , no matter how bad a match up is and you find yourself geting the short end of the stick those bad matchup can still be won ,( and i don t mean won by geting hax/ lucky during the game) there are outs from bat matchups, those outs are comeing or should be comeing from you not you re opponent makeing a mistake ( spolier: wich is the only out that can happen when faceing a dug team) things like double switching for exemple is the most well know out of a bad matchup , good switching in a bad matchup along side risk management of when to stop geting momentum with switching and start attacking or doing something else that gives you progress , like geting up rocks/hazzzards, are the bread and butter of geting out of the bad matchup and wining that bad matchup .

 

I know that those things are not possible in every matchup , some are so unplayble that nothing can save you and yet more offten then not you can still pull a vicotry over a bad matchup , ofcourse it does require you to stay on top of the game and make no mistakes but it is possible and that is one of the beautys of competitive mons.

 

Dug being the way it is , double switching its no longer an option since not all of you re pokemon want to face dug , most of them will die in one move from dug and then you are left with no answers for you re opponents threats you re bigest out from this bad matchup is already out of the question .

 

The second out wiche  would be geting hazzards up  , keeping hazzards up and spreading damage is also out of the question , all of this one thanks to dugs strong synergy with MB espeon and shedninja , like i said above the synergym of those 3 is so strong and overwhelming that you are constantly faceing 3 mons all at oance , you can t even reliably get hazzards up against this team , i know since ive faced this team a fair bit already at this point , if you do get them up most likely means you are out of resources to have a chance at wining .

 

The fact that this dug team has a low usage rate makes thigns even worse , since you won t see it comeing and preparing for it in the builder means you have to use something like hydregon or wevile , im not saing that those are bad mons and thet they have no other purpuse other then being good against this team however this makes it very restrictive to teambuilding , not to mention that volc can easly come in and scare both of those 2 out since it beats them quite hard

 

tl:dr ban dug

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I am always amazed by the fact this even requires a discussion. Arena trap (or trapping in general) was deemed uncompetitive in every format since forever, before someone comes and mention magnet pull, it has a whole limited niche, not the same.

 

I would vote against it ever being considered healthy, and the screen on gbwead post, showcases exactly why, why would focus sash be the most used or even the only used item as a whole? 

 

 

Ban dugtrio, ban any uncompetitive ability, no point discussing.

Edited by razimove
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Trying to emulate Smogon isn't gonna solve PokeMMOs problems, Dug is doing an ADV OU-like job here, it's far from broken or unhealthy. In fact it requires skill to build with, play with and play against. Also its usage is very low, there are a lot of problems with high usage in the game right now that aren't adressed, it would be good that the tiering council take care of that instead of trying to make PokeMMO a Smogon copycat mindlessly; and I say that when I'm someone who's pretty sucessful on Smogon and have had to play countless metas with Dugtrio allowed (before its bans or ADV OU). Banning Dugtrio here would be a crazy mistake. 

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I don't know what the point of comparison is here with adv, there is no focus sash so it is more complicated to put dugtrio freely because it has a more exploitable margin of error, it has less base attack (although that is not so important), it does not have the tools to taking it onto the field as freely as there is now, and of course not having a preview of the team makes it harder for you to recognize the threat you need to eliminate. (Not to mention that you are forced to use cb so it ends up being boost bait for salamence or others). Besides, nothing there is made stronger than it really is thanks to dugtrio 

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Always the same people advocating for the same uncompetitive stuff. ZzzzzZzz


I could see the different arguments being made that Dugtrio might not be broken in OU, that it is low used, maybe not with a great winrate either.
Altho none of that ultimately matters because the mon is, has been and will be deemed uncompetitive by a large majority of the playerbase.

While it is possible to build your team so that the mon becomes completely useless, it doesn't mean that we should allow an ability that disrupts any form of "standard" or logical teambuilding and that may bring an instant win from preview against a large enough amount of teams that an otherwise Untiered mon is beign brought to OU.

 

I am of the opinion that Arena Trap should be banned as a whole accross all tiers (idk about other formats) that we have 🙂 

Edited by TohnR
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The topic is OU Discussion Dugtrio. Arena Trap should not be affected at all by w.e decision being reached here. Otherwise, the thread would be about Arena Trap in OU and not Dugtrio in OU. There is no reason why Diglett and Trapinch end up nerfed when they accomplish nothing already.

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