[OU Discussion] Dugtrio

[YourAngst]

I like you re post Azpheil its well made and it does get the main point across as to why some people consider dug and its arena trap a good addition , however there are some parts of it i for one find are either vague or don t quite adress the issue

 

13 hours ago, Azphiel said:

Even though Arena Trap undermines a fundamental aspect of Pokémon that is switching, there are ways to play around it such as hazards or not letting your most important Pokémon getting chip damage to Dugtrio's range. Positioning is key against Dug

This is very true and i agree but like both Skye and me (i don t want to sound like a broken record so if interested go check out the first page of dug's disscusion where i replayed to ziios post) already said the outs/ways to play bad matchups : double switching , hazzards are already taken out of the ecuacion thanks to arena trap working in conjunction with magic bounce , not to mention all the teammates that benefit from this paring , stelth rock hydrei does well into dug + MB however like i said ( in the same post ^ ) volcarona dosen t care much about hydrei and can easly switch into it and not fear much from hydei

 

As for the part i found vague and i don t want to seem like i am grasping at straws

14 hours ago, Azphiel said:

If you have "0% chance of winning vs Dug+Magic Bounce" from team preview, then your team is the problem, not the Dug+Magic Bounce team. Each team, as solid as they can be, will inevitably be weak to a certain archetype because a perfect team does not exist.

If you were to simply replayce ''dug+magic bounce'' with anything that is considered too much for our metagame you can make the argument that nothing should ever be baned and eveything that is baned should be unbaned at once , dm hydrei welcome back , sd chomp return of the king , shaymin too much for uu? never heard of it .

14 hours ago, Azphiel said:

The problem lies in the playerbase not adapting their teambuilds to Dugtrio+Magic Bounce and in the difficulties that some players have to properly play against this archetype.

Yes , i know you said this first but the team preview one stood out more to me , again like me and many others have said in order to prepare for this team you will become a lot more exposed to other more used/popular mons this should at least rise an eyebrow as being  toxic and again like i did above :

 

The problem lies in the playerbase not adapting their teambuilds to arceus , keldeo , sd chomp , dm hydrei , brigth powder - sand vail chomp

 

Don t get me wrong i like you re post and even if it dosen t seem like it i do like to see TC members comeing here and telling us theyr thoughts regarding discussions like this but like i already pointed some part are too vague and others are just skipping around what is considered a bad matchup , not to mention the not adapting part , again by this logic you can just as well throw the most outrageous things in OU or any tier for that matter and just tell the playerbase ''addapt to it '' , '' play around it '' , for exemple i think that brigth powder - sand vail chomp should be allowed all you have to do is simply adapt to it and use ice beam - wide lens slowbro its easy , does the exmple i use sound very questionable and maybe even bad? Should not , is the ''same'' school of thought as useing shed shell on ttar

[gbwead]

14 hours ago, FlacuSkye said:

I think the main focus should be Dugtrio+Threat it enables (such as Volcarona). It adds nothing to the tier but ways to cheese through teams since it has the ability to consistenly trap all the Pokemon that their partners need gone in order to pull off a sweep. Tyranitar is the main one who suffers from its presence, it's a Pokemon that has proved itself to be a reliable check/counter to virtually all special attackers thanks to its bulk, SpD buff from Sand Stream, and access to Pursuit. Dugtrio enabling many cheese strategies that purely rely on match up fishing makes it, for me at least, not healthy for the metagame at all.
 

Offense, Rain and Stall, could it be by doing aggresive double switching with hazards, playing around sacrifices to mantain momentum or slowly getting their way with passive damage, all have their own ways to play all possible match ups, while Dugtrio teams usually don't. These teams depend on Dug getting rid of certain Pokemon, and in most occasions, it will not have anything useful to do, being just dead weight.
It's basically playing with restraint in the sense of "should i send Dugtrio here in case of X Pokemon i want to trap comes in or outright lose the match". Not only Magic Bounce teams, other options are being explored right now (Dug is paired with Espeon 66% of the times) that are being able to cheese a win let's say with Volcarona while also not losing to common considered answers to this archetypes such as Weezing, Zapdos, Togekiss, Chandelure (Empoleon, Chansey, Zapdos helps these teams a lot and also are helped by Dug trapping X Pokemon that threatens them).

In ADV, AT has not been banned because the power level is lower, if Dugtrio traps something in your team, you don't outright lose a huge defensive or offensive backbone of your team, since you also hand over momentum to your rival and there are many Pokemon that take advantage of the free turns a CB Dugtrio might give.
But in MMO meta, losing a Pokemon to Dugtrio is even more devastating because you could have lost the only possible answer you had to a certain setup sweeper. A single double switch into Dugtrio can mean your whole team structure gets destroyed.

Even if its attack stat is nerfed, Dugtrio will still be an unhealthy presence in the tier. The simple fact that it's only used in such flawed teams as described doesn't show that it's healthy, but the opposite.

It's really not that simple. There are very few Dugtrio teams that are actually decent because teambuilding around Dugtrio forces you to compromise in so many ways that leaves you vulnerable. Espeon and Serperior are viable to control hazards, but as walls they are extremely underwhelwing. They are one dimensional most of the time so they are easy to exploit. When you pair Dugtrio with Espeon and Serperior, you only have 3 mons left to build your team and 3 mons left is not enough to build something solid. I listed Espeon and Serperior, but to be fair, most Defogers and Spinners are in the same situation.

 

As for Volcarona, plenty of mons can counter it and do not fear Dugtrio like Chansey, Gyarados, Dnite, AV Mienshao, Chandelure, etc. Dugtrio can trap key mons on your team, but if your team is solid, you should have more than 1 option to stop mons like Volcarona in the first place.

Edited February 10 by gbwead

[JurassicMick]

15 minutes ago, YourAngst said:

The problem lies in the playerbase not adapting their teambuilds to arceus , keldeo , sd chomp , dm hydrei , brigth powder - sand vail chomp

 

Most of those aren't even playable due to how this game handles some leg mons wym. Also how do you want players to adapt to some mons like SD Chomp when there's so many issues around it not to mention that this meta lacks still some HA and mons that could actually help to reintroduce or at least test some of those mons. You can't adapt your team building if you lack the tools to make sure every archetype can have a chance against those threats.

 

Now going back to topic Arena trap on Dugtrio should be banned. There's already a lot of arguments about it and you have a lot of precedents out of this game about this decision as well. 

[YourAngst]

I think you missed the point of my post mick but yes ban dug or atleast complex ban it

[caioxlive13]

4 hours ago, gbwead said:

As for Volcarona, plenty of mons can counter it and do not fear Dugtrio like Chansey, Gyarados, Dnite, AV Mienshao, Chandelure, etc. Dugtrio can trap key mons on your team, but if your team is solid, you should have more than 1 option to stop mons likes Volcarona in the first place.

Do i'm on /vanish in this thread? Bcause what i've sayed on the first post of 5th page was 100% ignored on the bolded sentence. The only team that will have such thing would be stalls/semi-stalls since they can fit a lot of walls and has 2 mons ready to wall every single mon on OU.

Edited February 10 by caioxlive13

[gbwead]

3 hours ago, caioxlive13 said:

The only team that will have such thing would be stalls/semi-stalls since they can fit a lot of walls and has 2 mons ready to wall every single mon on OU.

Not true, plenty of offense or balance teams can carry several checks to most of the OU threats, this has nothing to do with stall. The main difference is that stall will want hard counters and offense will settle for more shaky checks in exchange for more direct pressure.

 

3 hours ago, caioxlive13 said:

The only team that will have such thing would be stalls/semi-stalls since they can fit a lot of walls and has 2 mons ready to wall every single mon on OU.

I said your team should have more than 1 option to stop mons like Volcarona. I did not say your team should have more than 1 option against every single OU mon.

Those things are not equivalent at all. Volcarona is more of a threat than a shitty Darmanitan. When teambuilding you should focus more on being able to handle Volcarona than being able to handle Darmanitan. Not all OU mons should be equally respected. Garchomp is significantly more viable than Infernape. Tyranitar is significantly more viable than Gastrodon. When teambuilding, you need to use your ressources wisely. If your only check to Volcarona on your team is a Tyranitar (not even amazing vs Volcarona to begin with), your team will not be super viable. You need to pair Ttar with a Chansey or a Gyarados or w.e in order to have a plan B when something goes wrong (freeze, burn, etc.) when you play. 

Edited February 10 by gbwead

[FlacuSkye]

10 hours ago, gbwead said:

It's really not that simple. There are very few Dugtrio teams that are actually decent because teambuilding around Dugtrio forces you to compromise in so many ways that leaves you vulnerable. Espeon and Serperior are viable to control hazards, but as walls they are extremely underwhelwing. They are one dimensional most of the time so they are easy to exploit. When you pair Dugtrio with Espeon and Serperior, you only have 3 mons left to build your team and 3 mons left is not enough to build something solid. I listed Espeon and Serperior, but to be fair, most Defogers and Spinners are in the same situation.

Yes, and that's why Dugtrio is obnoxious. Almost all of the teams built around it are terrible from a teambuilding perspective, and that is the problem. Dugtrio enables this, really flawed teams, that rely entirely on a favorable match up and usually lack the tools to play around a lot of stuff. The way i see it, Dugtrio is not great for the development of the OU metagame.

[Zokuru]

10 minutes ago, FlacuSkye said:

Yes, and that's why Dugtrio is obnoxious. Almost all of the teams built around it are terrible from a teambuilding perspective, and that is the problem. Dugtrio enables this, really flawed teams, that rely entirely on a favorable match up and usually lack the tools to play around a lot of stuff. The way i see it, Dugtrio is not great for the development of the OU metagame.

You don't need Dugtrio to cheese matchups, and Dug isn't that great at doing it either, you're using a flawed argument.

[vaguelylistless]

10 hours ago, JurassicMick said:

Now going back to topic Arena trap on Dugtrio should be banned. There's already a lot of arguments about it and you have a lot of precedents out of this game about this decision as well. 

Most of the arguments in favor of a Dugtrio (read: Arena Trap) ban tend to miss the forest for the trees.

 

The precedent is non-existent and to apply past decisions onto this ever-changing meta-game is absurd to me. As others have already brought up beforehand, new additions could violently shift the metagame to such an extent that you would be looking at an entirely different painting. One such example that happened recently is the addition of the Legendary Birds into the game. Zapdos easily dismantles Magic Bounce+Arena Trap Cores and provides so much more utility than what was previously imagined in the meta-game akin to Lando-T's ubiquity in Generation 5 to 8 OU.

[FlacuSkye]

8 minutes ago, Zokuru said:

You don't need Dugtrio to cheese matchups, and Dug isn't that great at doing it either, you're using a flawed argument.

Could you explain yourself better? Of course, you don't need it to cheese match ups at all, i mean, Hyper Offense kinda does it too, but saying Dugtrio it's not great at it is not true. Dugtrio is all about match up, it either has targets to trap, or it turns into pure death fodder. 

[vaguelylistless]

25 minutes ago, FlacuSkye said:

Could you explain yourself better? Of course, you don't need it to cheese match ups at all, i mean, Hyper Offense kinda does it too, but saying Dugtrio it's not great at it is not true. Dugtrio is all about match up, it either has targets to trap, or it turns into pure death fodder. 

I think the barrier to call a team archetype cheesy ought to be quite high. BP is a team archetype that I would consider heavily reliant on the match-up. Run into an opponent that has the tools to counter stat-passing (i.e. taunt, phasing moves, infiltrator) then your strategy becomes dust.

 

Unlike BP or any other noncompetitive strategies, Dugtrio is just one component of a team that provides support to its other teammates by eliminating pertinent threats. Functionally equivalent to any other Stall-breaker like Sub-NP Hydreigon, CM Espeon, Sub-SD Gliscor, etc. Win Conditions depend on the match-up but that shouldn't require your team to sacrifice 2-3 move-slots to function like BP teams do.

 

 

[FlacuSkye]

3 minutes ago, vaguelylistless said:

I think the barrier to call a team archetype cheesy ought to be quite high. BP is a team archetype that I would consider heavily reliant on the match-up. Run into an opponent that has the tools to counter stat-passing (i.e. taunt, phasing moves, infiltrator) then your strategy becomes dust.

 

Unlike BP or any other noncompetitive strategies, Dugtrio is just one component of a team that provides support to its other teammates by eliminating pertinent threats. Functionally equivalent to any other Stall-breaker like Sub-NP Hydreigon, CM Espeon, Sub-SD Gliscor, etc. Win Conditions depend on the match-up but that shouldn't require your team to sacrifice 2-3 move-slots to function like BP teams do.

 

 

Why are you comparing Nasty Plot Hydreigon and all that stuff with Dugtrio? And why are you talking about Baton Pass again in the end? "Just one component"? There's an archetype that literally revolves around Dugtrio.
I feel you are a bit lost... since Baton Pass is nerfed here too.

[Insou]

The main problem lies in the simplification of the rationalization process of whether Dugtrio can be identified as an overcentralizing Pokemon or not. Most of the argumentative points of this post has already been mentioned by other players such as @Azphiel, @Doctor, @Zokuru, @LiveLaughHate, and @Queza.

 

Evaluation of Dugtrio's Impact in PokeMMO vs Smogon

Dugtrio's dominance is incomparable compared to Smogon metagames ranging from the old generations to the newer gens, with black and white being the most relevant comparison to this topic. Despite the similarities in the available checks and counters for Dugtrio, as well as the defensive cores that exist within the OU Metagame, Dugtrio is not as potent as it is in BW and is not as centralizing due to the disparity in weather's usage and mechanics in PokeMMO. Unlike black and white, weather teams such as sand and rain are by far the most popular archetypes followed by hyper offense.  Normally, this argument can be downplayed by the similarities in the targets of Dugtrio in both metagames. Despite the incomparable usage, Both metagames frequently sees weather and utilizes dugtrio as a trapper to eliminate the opposing weather setter. In balance, or bulky offense, its functions remains relatively similar which pertains to its ability to remove a certain threat to its partners such as reuniclus or espeon or togekiss, which is often hindered by tyrannitar.

Moreover, its ability to remove certain threats for a particular core or archetype is insufficient as a form of justification of its classification as overcentralizing, or broken by any standards. While defensive tanks can be worn down effectively for dugtrio to showcase its ability to effectively trap and kill a certain mon, the fragility, existence of spinners, and its vulnerability to hazards limits its opportunities to enter the field. Therefore, it is often paired with a Pokemon that would be ranked near B or C by viability standards which corresponds to its slot ability, and its ability to fulfill its role in teams.

Most comparisons are supported by superficial form of evidence which incorrectly compares its utility as trapper in PokeMMO and its true impact in Smogon metagame formats. ESpeon+dugtrio's prevelance is incomparable to Mega sableye+Dugtrio. Mega sableye is far more centralizing and has more utility to offer than Espeon which not only neutralizes mega medicham's threat, but also prevents hazard stacking which complements sash dugtrio sets very nicely. In the Pokemmo metagame, based on wall breaking prowess, the strongest wall breaker that is comparable to Mega Medicham would be Gallade. In what way can Espeon counter Gallade? In what way can Espeon neutralize Gallade's threat much like how Mega Sableye can neutralize Mega Medicham's wall breaking prowess and limit its ability to create progress? Furthermore, due to the absence of Mega evolutions and z moves, Dugtrio's impact cannot be compared to gen 7 either.
Therefore most people will choose black and white OU as a more reasonable choice for comparison despite the aforementioned differences.

 

Relevant counterplays for Offensive cores including Dugtrio

Numerous counterplays exist for dugtrio, unlike sharpness, or the recently banned draco meteor which often constrained teambuilding for hazard stacking balance and bulky offensive archetypes that do not run AV Mienshao, AV superpower tyrannitar (which is a check, and not a counter due to focus blast, or empoleon (which again is a check, and not a counter due to focus blast). Gallade on the other hand threatens even the bulkiest psychic types in the metagame, namely reuniclus as sacred ignores defensive boosts which benefits from sharpness and swords dance sets. Gliscor, is threatened by ice punch which forces people to run impish to scout its possible sets and often proving unreliable. Metagross checks scarf and choice band sets of gallade, but is cannot be considered as a counter since swords dance life orb 0hkos with sacred sword.

Most people here consider arena trap as the primary constraint for most teams to find a form of counterplay without forcefully sacrificing a check for the prominent special attackers in the metagame which in this case is again tyrannitar which improves matchups against the likes of zapdos, hydreigon, and togekiss. As pointed out by @gbwead, while Tyrannitar solves the majority of the issues against a team of shed magic bounce, dugtrio removes what's supposedly one of the only reliable counter, despite the availability of certain others in Zapdos, and when using hyper offense, mold breaker lead Excadrill becomes an option which threatens Shedinja's freedom to wall threats that would typically eliminate Porygon. While Arena trap constraints teambuilding to some degree, once again, Dugtrio's efficiency as a trapper has diminished in the PokeMMO meta due to disparity in the usage of its primary targets to eliminate. Teambuilding without accounting for certain Pokemons is a fatal mistake that any player can make. 

Constructing defensive cores that doesn't account for dugtrio should immediately imply the need for reconsideration and a reevaluation of other threats that could possibly exists. Despite the inconsistencies in the argument that a team that is weak to dugtrio is weak to any ground types, the list of mons that check dugtrio are shared with other common ground types, but the difference in the roles exist between other ground type threats and dugtrio. One is a trapper, and others play a certain role which in this case could be a revenge killer, or sweeper such as scarf garchomp in balance or bulky offense or excadrill in sand. However, defensive cores that consist of suicune+garchomp+zapdos and amoonguss to deal with serperior is decent option for a counterplay. Offensively, weavile mamoswine exists to threaten the aforementioned magic bounce team. Additionally, Gliscor and amoonguss that is paired with an ice type such as weavile or an offensive pivot in rotom wash is also a decent option to mitigate the progress that it can create. Furthermore, hyper offensive consisting of hydreigon as a breaker which often utilizes nasty plot also threatens the team. Similar to bulky sets of excadrill that are present in other archetypes, Hyper offense with excadrill lead neutralizes magic bounce due to mold breaker; thus allowing the team to set rocks and to create an opportunity to bring in a potential threat to the defogger of the team which in case is serperior. 

The real issue lies in the inability to distinguish what is truly overcentralizing. Is it Dugtrio+magic bounce? Dugtrio's efficiency as a trapper? The consequences that Dugtrio creates as a trapper? Or is it some other Pokemon that is being overshadowed due to the irrationality in the decision to implement a gen 9 ability that does not have a readily available nor any reliable counters in the metagame where fairies are non-existent.

Most people's argument revolves around the idea that dugtrio forcibly creates progress by eliminating the primary constraint against certain offensive cores. However, there are limited opportunities for dugtrio to enter the field and to effectively or to instantly eliminate the said threat. For instance, in rain vs sun, dugtrio requires torkoal to be chipped below 60% in order to effectively trap and kill without the fear of burn or of it becoming a possible threat to its efficiency as a trapper. Furthermore, against tyrannitar which is the primary counter to the magic bounce togekiss team can be paired with garchomp or gliscor in bulky offense or balance which forces dugtrio out of the field. Hyper offense? Its unnecessary to even elaborate the plethora of options that are available to threaten the team.

However, outside of the available answers that exist for the magic bounce teams, let's evaluate more viable cores or teams that utilize dugtrio as its trapper. First dugtrio and reuniclus which is often supported by suicune and zapdos. This core is threatened by scarf hydreigon and sash breloom in offense. Amoonguss also limits the opportunities for zapdos to come into the field without fearing spore, which creates an opportunity for reuniclus to come in and only be threatened out with hydreigon if its not running colburr focus blast. If the reuniclus is running double dance which is a great option when paired with dugtrio to elimimate the likes of tyrannitar, then reuniclus becomes instantly threatened by dragon gem dragonite which guarantees a 2hko even when followed up with an iron defense or acid armour boost. In addition, flame orb conkeldurr's also threatens the defensive core that supports the duo as facade and ice punch can hit the likes of gliscor, garchomp and 2hko reuniclus on the switch. In addition, roar suicune can also prevent reuniclus from endlessly setting up with calm mind. Moreover, Taunt nasty plot dark pulse focus blast hydreigon also threatens a tyrannitar which is also an option to pair reuniclus with. 

 

Limitations of switching

Dugtrio preventing switching as a sole logical argument is not a valid example of its consideration as an overcentralizing pokemon in the metagame. Switching itself is not constrained by the presence of dugtrio, but rather due to its ability to deny an entry for a check for its offensive core to come into the field without any potential drawbacks. Simply having dugtrio in a team does not limit the opportunities for a half of the pokemons in the metagame, unlike a certain pokemon which does not need to be named. As much as dugtrio limits switching, its opportunities to also switch into a desired target has been limited due to the difference in mechanics such as rapid spin gaining a speed boost which formerly did not exist in black and white. Moreover, although there are plenty of other reasons, It is unnecessary to repeat the previous points that has been addressed.

 

 

Conclusion

As evident in the examples provided, we can conclude that teams with offensive cores revolving around dugtrio's role as trapper is constrained by vulnerabilities against other archetypes or prominent offensive cores in the metagame in order to complement its glaring weaknesses. However, this does not invalidate Dugtrio's competency or ability to perform well in the metagame, but a rationalization in the argument that dugtrio is not overcentralizing nor extremely unhealthy in the metagame by any standards. Ultimately I'm voting for DNB despite our inability to change the decisions of the tier council. 

Will probably edit this and add more points later that needs to be addressed.

[vaguelylistless]

24 minutes ago, FlacuSkye said:

Why are you comparing Nasty Plot Hydreigon and all that stuff with Dugtrio?

Because they function in a similar role to Dugtrio as a stall/wallbreaker on any other team. 

 

33 minutes ago, FlacuSkye said:

And why are you talking about Baton Pass again in the end? [...] I feel you are a bit lost... since Baton Pass is nerfed here too.

I know BP is nerfed to just drypassing in PokeMMO, I was using BP as a example of a "cheesy" team archetype that is match-up reliant by definition.

40 minutes ago, FlacuSkye said:

"Just one component"? There's an archetype that literally revolves around Dugtrio.

It isn't an Team Archetype but an Offensive Core. Arena Trap+Magic Bounce only requires two mons not a whole team:

Dugtrio @ Focus Sash  
Ability: Arena Trap  
Level: 50  
EVs: 6 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe  
Jolly Nature  
- Earthquake  
- Stone Edge  
- Reversal  
- Stealth Rock  


Espeon @ Leftovers  
Ability: Magic Bounce  
Level: 50  
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 6 Spe  
Bold Nature  
- Psychic  
- Baton Pass 
- Wish  
- Protect

Both Pokemon need each other to function well in a team. Dugtrio traps potentially dangerous threats which can either wall and trap Espeon with Pursuit while Espeon negates the opponent from breaking Duggie's sash with rocks, spikes or other forms of status. This core is no different from cores like DragMag in its offensive capability. That is what I mean when I allude to the fact that it is just one piece of the pie.

 

I wish others were better at understanding what I am trying to convey rather than just run to assumptions but I guess that is just something I need to work on.

 

 

[Frag]

Most people defending trio just pointing the obvious, it's true that trio is shit vs some archetypes, but against the other half it's a 100% win condition.

Duels should be decided by skilled players, not by the ones who preffer some easy wins with match up fishing.

 

Trio impact in the half of matchups is just too high compared with other mons, and thats why it should go.

[FlacuSkye]

1 hour ago, vaguelylistless said:

Because they function in a similar role to Dugtrio as a stall/wallbreaker on any other team. 

 

Dugtrio is not a stallbreaker nor wallbreaker, it's a trapper, or revengekiller if you want too.
 

 

1 hour ago, vaguelylistless said:

I know BP is nerfed to just drypassing in PokeMMO, I was using BP as a example of a "cheesy" team archetype that is match-up reliant by definition.

Baton Pass chain teams have been considered extremely strong outside PokeMMO too, if you are bringing it up just as cheesy as Dugtrio, then that means Dugtrio should also get banned, right?

 

 

1 hour ago, vaguelylistless said:

It isn't an Team Archetype but an Offensive Core. Arena Trap+Magic Bounce only requires two mons not a whole team:

Both Pokemon need each other to function well in a team. Dugtrio traps potentially dangerous threats which can either wall and trap Espeon with Pursuit while Espeon negates the opponent from breaking Duggie's sash with rocks, spikes or other forms of status. This core is no different from cores like DragMag in its offensive capability. That is what I mean when I allude to the fact that it is just one piece of the pie.

 

I wish others were better at understanding what I am trying to convey rather than just run to assumptions but I guess that is just something I need to work on.

 

 

I mean yeah that's one core that's used a lot but still Dugtrio manages to fit into Stall/Semi-Stall without the need of Magic Bounce; these stalls really need Dugtrio as an incredibly important asset that can trap threats and such

Edited February 11 by FlacuSkye

[caioxlive13]

1 hour ago, Frag said:

Most people defending trio just pointing the obvious, it's true that trio is shit vs some archetypes, but against the other half it's a 100% win condition.

Yea, the arguments in general are with heavy flaws. They sayed that: "Dugtrio has low usage, so it should stay because it's not a threat, despite their Uncompetitive nature." or something in those lines, but when they were discussing KR cloyster, they sayed on the lines of: "F*** their low usage, he is uncompetitive and should be banned." 

 

When people say that the players experienced favour defensive play in arguments, now i see that this is infact true and complaints are legit. Most teams dugtrio enables, are either stall teams who use it to kill the opponent's wallbreaker, or semistall teams, and they're defending with Tough Claws the mon doesn't get banned for being Uncompetitive.  Now, when KR Cloyster was there, there was every month a thread asking for his ban for Uncompetitiveness. Which team has absolutely no chance to win since everything was slower than him, without cloyster even firing a shell smash?? I don't need to answer that.

Before someone says: "But you defend also an uncompetitive strat too that are Serperior Defog" to try to claim i'm a hyprocit for even consider talking about uncompetitiveness of some mons, i consider things uncompetitive when the ways to abuse it are not in opponent's hands, which the strat I defend happens to be(To have raised evasion you depend on your opponent to mindless defog on you, and 3 braincells makes him not do that).

 

Also in the thread, there is gbwead, who idk which side he is in. He literally tried to contrary my argument and backfired.

11 hours ago, gbwead said:

 

Those things are not equivalent at all. Volcarona is more of a threat than a shitty Darmanitan. When teambuilding you should focus more on being able to handle Volcarona than being able to handle Darmanitan. Not all OU mons should be equally respected. Garchomp is significantly more viable than Infernape. Tyranitar is significantly more viable than Gastrodon. When teambuilding, you need to use your ressources wisely. If your only check to Volcarona on your team is a Tyranitar (not even amazing vs Volcarona to begin with), your team will not be super viable. You need to pair Ttar with a Chansey or a Gyarados or w.e in order to have a plan B when something goes wrong (freeze, burn, etc.) when you play. 

The whole point of my argument is simple, because we have so many threats on OU we have to use our resources wisely and that's why dug teams are so powerful, most teams , worried about more common threats , will not have something ready for him. And also if you put an mon that happens to check the same mons that another, pairing tytar + chansey for example, is just a mere bonus, because you don't put the Chansey there exactly for Volcarona. You put it there worried about other stuff like Serperior or Hydreigon for example. 

Edited February 11 by caioxlive13

[Helmut]

1 hour ago, Frag said:

Most people defending trio just pointing the obvious, it's true that trio is shit vs some archetypes, but against the other half it's a 100% win condition.

Duels should be decided by skilled players, not by the ones who preffer some easy wins with match up fishing.

 

Trio impact in the half of matchups is just too high compared with other mons, and thats why it should go.

Actually predicting is the best counter to Dug so skill is definitely involved

Edited February 11 by Helmut

[FlacuSkye]

1 minute ago, Helmut said:

Actually predicting is the best counter to Dug so skill if definitely involved

sure "skill" can be used as an argument to not ban anything never
not like the dug player can have skill too

[vaguelylistless]

1 hour ago, FlacuSkye said:

Dugtrio is not a stallbreaker nor wallbreaker, it's a trapper, or revengekiller if you want too.

 

Baton Pass chain teams have been considered extremely strong outside PokeMMO too, if you are bringing it up just as cheesy as Dugtrio, then that means Dugtrio should also get banned, right?

 

I mean yeah that's one core that's used a lot but still Dugtrio manages to fit into Stall/Semi-Stall without the need of Magic Bounce; these stalls really need Dugtrio as an incredibly important asset that can trap threats and such

Dugtrio roles are dependent on whatever the trainer feels suits the team but within the Arena Trap+Magic Bounce Core that countless others have brought up, Trio functions as a stall/wallbreaker that allows for its teammates to flourish outside the pressure of whatever threatens them. Although, this is just semantics.

 

I used BP Teams showcase how wide the disparity could be when it comes to being match-up reliant. I never implied that Dugtrio was even comparable to BP in that aspect. See Here:
 

Quote

 

I think the barrier to call a team archetype cheesy ought to be quite high. BP is a team archetype that I would consider heavily reliant on the match-up. Run into an opponent that has the tools to counter stat-passing (i.e. taunt, phasing moves, infiltrator, etc) then your strategy becomes dust.

 

Unlike BP or any other noncompetitive strategies, Dugtrio is just one component of a team that provides support to its other teammates by eliminating pertinent threats. Functionally equivalent to any other Stall-breaker like Sub-NP Hydreigon, CM Espeon, Sub-SD Gliscor, etc. Win Conditions depend on the match-up but that shouldn't require your team to sacrifice 2-3 move-slots to function like BP teams do.

 

And while I realize that Dugtrio has more utility outside of Arena Trap+Magic Bounce cores, there is a sufficient amount of counter-play for Dugtrio that I and others, that share my stance on the matter, deem to be healthy for the tier and not as overbearing as others are exaggerating it is. Yes, it is frustrating to have one of your mons trapped by Dug but I don't consider that grounds for a ban. I am firmly on the side of DNB and hope that this reflects on TC's decision surrounding the matter.

 

Hopefully this gets the message across.

 

 

[FlacuSkye]

22 minutes ago, vaguelylistless said:

Dugtrio roles are dependent on whatever the trainer feels suits the team but within the Arena Trap+Magic Bounce Core that countless others have brought up, Trio functions as a stall/wallbreaker that allows for its teammates to flourish outside the pressure of whatever threatens them. Although, this is just semantics.

but dugtrio is not a stallbreaker... it's a trapper, its role will always be to trap
 

 

23 minutes ago, vaguelylistless said:

I used BP Teams showcase how wide the disparity could be when it comes to being match-up reliant. I never implied that Dugtrio was even comparable to BP in that aspect.

sooo why are we bringing it up? you mention there´s a gap between baton pass and arena trap and yea. bp is a move, arena trap an ability. their way of being match up reliant is different, and just because you consider baton pass teams to be more cheesy doesn't mean arena trap is less unhealthy.
 

 

36 minutes ago, vaguelylistless said:

And while I realize that Dugtrio has more utility outside of Arena Trap+Magic Bounce cores, there is a sufficient amount of counter-play for Dugtrio that I and others, that share my stance on the matter, deem to be healthy for the tier and not as overbearing as others are exaggerating it is. Yes, it is frustrating to have one of your mons trapped by Dug but I don't consider that grounds for a ban. 

the problem i see is that the checks and counters mentioned for this style are mentioned only when considering like 2 of the most used teams; metagames change and adapt, and it may take time for people to see a pokemon's true strength, what if now dugtrio starts being used more with chansey, empoleon, skarmory? with dugtrio, there are a lot of options yet to be explored.
 

 

51 minutes ago, vaguelylistless said:

I am firmly on the side of DNB

dw you already said it before we know

[vaguelylistless]

8 hours ago, FlacuSkye said:

but dugtrio is not a stallbreaker... it's a trapper, its role will always be to trap.

As I said before, just semantics. It can trap and break down walls. At the end of the day, this is just something meaningless to get hung up about.

 

8 hours ago, FlacuSkye said:

sooo why are we bringing it up? you mention there´s a gap between baton pass and arena trap and yea. bp is a move, arena trap an ability. their way of being match up reliant is different, and just because you consider baton pass teams to be more cheesy doesn't mean arena trap is less unhealthy.

Please just read the quote, especially the parts in bold. The implication with my earlier statement is that there is a vast wealth of difference, in cheese, between BP and AT. Which follows directly into how there are forms of counter-play for AT that are utilized widely in the tier.

 

9 hours ago, FlacuSkye said:

the problem i see is that the checks and counters mentioned for this style are mentioned only when considering like 2 of the most used teams; metagames change and adapt, and it may take time for people to see a pokemon's true strength, what if now dugtrio starts being used more with chansey, empoleon, skarmory? with dugtrio, there are a lot of options yet to be explored.

I somewhat agree with you but that is why we should give it time.

 

Dugtrio isn't even a necessarily great mon and oftentimes requires both MB and TP support to not break it's sash and to switch in safely. In addition, we have Zapdos' first foray into the metagame which threatens to break down such offensive cores with ease. Let alone numerous potential checks and counters which can easily handle Dugtrio which others have highlighted beforehand. Metagames tend to fluctuate and shift and yet it may take time for people to fully realize a pokemon's strengths and weaknesses.

[Busso]

1. Possessing banning Dugtrio before thinking about banning Gallade's pokemon or ability is a bit of a joke, if it is true that Dugtrio is good for opening holes in both stall and baland and offensive teams, but you will never see him sweep entire teams like Gallade, I think that before considering banning Dugtrio you should think about Gallade if you plan to balance Ou's competitiveness, if you want to achieve a good balance it is not to remove DugTrio and just leave that poke free.

 

 

 

 

 

[FlacuSkye]

omg why is a gallade ban being brought in a thread about dugtrio

there's and a time and a place for everything

[gbwead]

3 minutes ago, FlacuSkye said:

omg why is a gallade ban being brought in a thread about dugtrio

there's and a time and a place for everything

When you clean your house, you need to start with the ceiling and end with the floor. Busso just means that if the objective is to clean up OU to achieve balance you must start with top priorities like Gallade and then you can look at low priorities like Dugtrio.