[OU Discussion] Dugtrio

[YourAngst]

What is the TC's stance regarding dug?

[Mkns1070]

On 2/13/2024 at 7:10 PM, LeJovi said:

So is alcohol. Guess what? It's allowed. 

But it’s cool

[gbwead]

Minors should not be allowed to play Dugtrio.

[caioxlive13]

This thread became a s***show at this point. I'd ask for a vote, but with LNY event in-progress is unlikely TC wants to do anything now. Can we know after the event(when a answer is likely to come) which side TC is more likely to vote(in favor of a ban or against it)?

[Axelgor]

15 minutes ago, caioxlive13 said:

This thread became a s***show at this point. I'd ask for a vote, but with LNY event in-progress is unlikely TC wants to do anything now. Can we know after the event(when a answer is likely to come) which side TC is more likely to vote(in favor of a ban or against it)?

On 2/15/2024 at 5:09 PM, YourAngst said:

What is the TC's stance regarding dug?

The vote as it stands is 3 in favor and 3 against.

[Matthzinxl]

5 minutes ago, Axelgor said:

 3 against.

😔

Wait, if we have 6 members and the votes are tied, what happens?

Edited February 22 by Matthzinxl
jsuaiaoqkqjh

[Doctor]

26 minutes ago, caioxlive13 said:

This thread became a s***show at this point.

wonder why

[Munya]

20 minutes ago, Matthzinxl said:

😔

Wait, if we have 6 members and the votes are tied, what happens?

No ban happens.

[vaguelylistless]

28 minutes ago, Munya said:

No ban happens.

Nice!

[Ziiiiio]

 

于2024/2/14 PM10点48分，SakuyaZ 说：

Endeavor+sub+eq+ sucker punch set is way broken

Endeavor + sucker punch is fine, and sub is.... Dugtrio need eq+reversal+rock tomb, You have to give up one of them and loss huge amont of pkm to kill, and in real game it is hard to success.

 

 

[Doctor]

1 minute ago, Ziiiiio said:

 

Endeavor + sucker punch is fine, and sub is.... Dugtrio need eq+reversal+rock tomb, You have to give up one of them and loss huge amont of pkm to kill, and in real game it is hard to success.

 

 

And I would argue Sucker Punch is kind of a must too if you want to succesfully trap and kill lead Focus Sash Excadrills that will Rapid Spin turn 1 to break your sash then outspeed you and EQ. Same goes for trapping and killing stuff like Starmie that might have spinned before Dug even enters the field. Endeavor is just garbage on Dug no matter how you look at it, it might be a cute idea and could work in some scenarios but for the sake of consistency in its building it's just not good. There's a reason why Endeavor + prio move isn't used on ANY Pokémon at all, and while Arena Trap allows it to be somewhat more effective, at that point you just have a gimmick mon that doesn't really represent what Dugtrio does. 

[gbwead]

49 minutes ago, Doctor said:

And I would argue Sucker Punch is kind of a must too if you want to succesfully trap and kill lead Focus Sash Excadrills that will Rapid Spin turn 1 to break your sash then outspeed you and EQ. 

For what's it's worth, Rock Tomb can also do that.

[Doctor]

1 hour ago, gbwead said:

For what's it's worth, Rock Tomb can also do that.

I think with Rock Tomb you miss the 2HKO on Starmie of EQ+ SP but I might be wrong on this. Although the real point is that, yeah, Duggy’s moveset is already packed as is, Endeavor would be like the last move you’d want on it.

[vaguelylistless]

4 hours ago, Doctor said:

I think with Rock Tomb you miss the 2HKO on Starmie of EQ+ SP but I might be wrong on this. Although the real point is that, yeah, Duggy’s moveset is already packed as is, Endeavor would be like the last move you’d want on it.

Using the Standard Bulky Set:

 

252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 82-97 (49.1 - 58%) -- 58.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Dugtrio Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 78-92 (46.7 - 55%) -- 9.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

(Sucker Calc: possible 3HKO if you low roll)

 

252 Atk Dugtrio Rock Tomb vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 34-40 (20.3 - 23.9%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 82-97 (49.1 - 58%) -- 58.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

(Rock Tomb Calc: 3HKO but you risk a scald burn)

 

Using the LO set:

 

252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 82-97 (60.7 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Dugtrio Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Starmie: 78-92 (57.7 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

(Sucker Calc: guaranteed 2HKO)

 

252 Atk Dugtrio Rock Tomb vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 33-39 (24.4 - 28.8%) -- possible 5HKO

252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 82-97 (60.7 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

(Rock Tomb Calc: guaranteed 2HKO due to LO recoil)

 

Your intuition is correct. To secure the 2HKO you need to be quite match up reliant on which Starmie set you are running into and, at the time of posting, only 37.55% of Starmie sets can guarantee a 2HKO. 4MSS is quite the conundrum with running Dugtrio but I wouldn't go as far as to say that Endeavor would be the last move one would want to be running.

 

Also, don't tell me that my sarcastic post about Endeavor Duggie fooled you guys?

 

 

[epicdavenport]

On 2/22/2024 at 7:34 AM, Munya said:

No ban happens.

Shouldn't the council be odd numbered to prevent locks?

 

[Munya]

4 hours ago, epicdavenport said:

Shouldn't the council be odd numbered to prevent locks?

 

If it were an odd number it would require a vote of 5-2 to pass and it still wouldn't.  1 vote difference isn't enough to pass a vote with current rules. Needs to be at least 2.

[caioxlive13]

29th Febuary is when the vote happens. I will let a final argument there before the vote in hopes of it being changed. Mainly will focus on telling why some arguments against the ban are wrong/flawed, and reiterate some of my past points.
 

1. People not telling that dugtrio is uncompetitive / telling that are on an acceptable degree of uncompetitiveness. 

This i've seen a little there. And i have to tell something: The conditions to met an acceptable degree of being uncompetitive is very high. Mostly i like to use the Abusing ways as a limiter. If you can abuse without heavily depend of opponent's actions and are uncompetitive, then it's bannable. Giving examples:
-  Magnet Pull is not bannable because you heavily depend of your opponent gets a KO with an steel type or stay with it on the field for too long. But teams bring often one or two steel types(You can't trap all the team) and can play around magnezone easily by pivoting , predicting and using Whrilwind/Roar for skarmory and empoleon, when he is switching on you , or using quake in case of Excadrill. Also, there is scenarios on your steel type won't get a KO or if gets, it will be done it's job and can die peacefully, or the KO of it it's actually benefical for you(You can after Magnezone gets a KO with HP Fire enter with nite and use DD for Free since Magnezone is prob locked.)
 - Serperior with Contrary, boosting evasion with defog, not bannable too, because to abuse you depend on your opponent mindlessy using defog on you, which 2 braincells prevent that easily. Only 550 Elo does that, and your hazard removal having Rapid Spin and not defog, throws this strat on the window.
- However arena trap is far different. Your Flying-types and Levitates won't get all KOs on a match , eventually you has to go into grounded mons to get some KO and they may end trapped, either they does a slow pivot or sacrifice themselves to dug enter and trap the opposing mon. Also, at best you had 2 mons immune to trapping, and may had one or no mon, meaning you can have your entire team trapped depending on your team

2. Restricting Teambuild not being a problem

People tells that there is no problem bring counters to dugtrio and adapt your teambuild. That if was before 2021 could be a possibillity, but currently is not. This i bringed on the post, and was commented before by @ArtOfKilling - "There is over 20 threats on OU right now and you can't build a solid 3 x 3 team that covers all of that". You has to be selective and choose which mons you can and can't cover, and you will obviously choose to cover the top used mons, being a bonus countering a lower one. Is 100% normal and that make Dugtrio very powerful, teams having absolutely nothing to cover dugtrio or at best one mon ready for him, without the intent for that mon to counter dug in the first place. And that's because of Dug's low usage. Mons with low usage, that has a decent niche on OU, ends up being very powerful due to that. 

3. Precedents

People forgot often about previous bans that can act later as precedents. Dugtrio is being asked to stay due to low usage, despite being uncompetitive. But, some years ago, they banned King's Rock and gets it nerfed. Why i'm talking about that ban in specific? Because KR was banned due to it being Uncompetitive, despite their low use. So, it's not fair to dugtrio not get banned if he gets the exact same precedents than an thing that was banned, uncompetitiveness despite low use.

My opinion remains the same: Ban Dugtrio. There is nothing left to discuss.

Edited February 25 by caioxlive13

[VelociRaptorr]

[Doctor]

1 minute ago, VelociRaptorr said:

this man really likes moles

[Munya]

As of today the vote on Dugtrio is concluded, it will not be banned with a split vote 3:3.