[Mechanics Discussion] Bullet Seed + Icicle Spear

[OldKeith]

Since about any other move is updated to the later generations, it is about time to discuss Bullet Seed and Icicle Spear.

 

List of pokemon that learn the move:

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Bullet_Seed_(move)#Learnset

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Icicle_Spear_(move)#Learnset

 

Odds of hitting...

2 times - 1/3

3 times - 1/3

4 times - 1/6

5 times - 1/6

 

Average power = 79,2

 

Basically, power becomes 25 from 10. When asking one of the developers why the power has not been updated, the answer I received was pretty much "because Senile does not want to". With the absence of abilities such as Skill Link or Technician, these moves are nowhere near overpowered and I would like to see them in game, as it would make a lot more pokemon more viable, especially the grass move which would provide many grass types with a good physical STAB move.

 

Perhaps it is time the competitive community discussed this.

Edited September 8, 2015 by OldKeith

[flavajabari]

i'd rather get the absent aiblities & moves

[Darkshade]

i'd rather get the absent aiblities & moves

 

I'm sure we all would, but that does not bring very much to the discussion.

 

----------------------------------

And to be fair to Senile, the quote is not accurate, and he had presented some good arguments against updating multi hit moves to abide by the mechanics of later generations.

 

I'm looking forward to hearing what people have to say.

[DoubleJ]

+1. The more creativity in competitive play the better it's going to be.

[Shaniqualela]

+1 because afaik there is NO physical grass or ice moves. Every other type has at least one physical move with 60+ power (except bug?)
(Shadow punch, thief, epunches)

[TheGloriousWalrus]

+1 because afaik there is NO physical grass or ice moves. Every other type has at least one physical move with 60+ power (except bug?)
(Shadow punch, thief, epunches)

I think razor leaf is physical with base 55, close enough.

 

But yeah support, could make some creative sets

also

PHYSICAL CLOYSTER

Edited February 26, 2015 by TheGloriousWalrus

[OldKeith]

Well, there is Leaf Blade that is strong but not everything gets it.

[codylramey]

Hmm its an interesting idea. Does anyone have a list of pokes who would actually benifit from this? 

 

Also one meta game benefit i can see from this is if this would make it to where there are more pokemon with multi hit moves running around then sub wont be as safe of a move anymore. Especially if icecicle spear becomes popular bc most of the pokes i can think of that abuse sub are resistant to bullet seed.

[RysPicz]

Does anyone have a list of pokes who would actually benifit from this?

Heracross

Octillery

Breloom

Sect (should we discuss ubers?)

Ludicolo

Swalot

Cradily

Cacturne

 

Probably only those for now. Rest of those pokes that learn bullet seed can actually use Leaf Blade which is overall much better.

Also, Breloom really needs Technician to abuse Bullet Seed to it's fullest. For now it'd be just a desperate move to increase the viability of some pokes that are otherwise much less viable.

 

Forgot to like the OP as I agree with that, sorry Keith, correcting that mistake now

[Munya]

how come 

 

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Rock_Blast_%28move%29 

 

isn't on that list, isn't it pretty much the same thing?

[ThinkNice]

Heracross doesn't really benefit from it. It hits Swampert harder but CB Megahorn shrecks it anyway. I guess Breloom gets some benefit from it. Also inb4 Curse Exeggutor new meta.

Breloom vs Vap, FP (225 power)
Bullet Seed 37,5 x 5 (188 power), bad

Edit: wops times 2 against Vap ofc so 376 lel. To match FP power you need 3 hits exact (225)

Icicle Spear Cloyster doe, can also run Rock bladt for Gyara

Edited February 27, 2015 by ThinkNice

[RysPicz]

how come 

 

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Rock_Blast_%28move%29

 

isn't on that list, isn't it pretty much the same thing?

Afaik it's only diffrence is the accuracy (our 80 compared to future 90) and not base power.

[Munya]

Ah, I figured it was the same type of discussion since it would end up being the same average power with it becoming the same as it is in future gens as these 2 would be.

Edited February 27, 2015 by Munya

[Gunthug]

pin missile beedrill new meta

[Blue]

I agree with this .As doublej said it promotes creative play and also will make many pokes ,which arent so good atm, very legit to use vs sub users like jol/rhydon. I dont see any downside implementing this.

[Gilvy]

Bump, is this still planned ?

[BurntZebra]

Bump, is this still planned ?

don't think it was on pts so probably not for another 6 months

[Barrage]

We already messed up the meta enough. Might as well go the whole 9 yards. I don't see a reason beyond "because I don't want to". Like this is not going to be negatively impactful. It's not like we are tampering with the delicate balance of a metagame, we're just adding in something else onto our pile of changes. Gen 4 mechanics without moves or abilities is wild to begin with.

[Gunthug]

We already messed up the meta enough. Might as well go the whole 9 yards. I don't see a reason beyond "because I don't want to". Like this is not going to be negatively impactful. It's not like we are tampering with the delicate balance of a metagame, we're just adding in something else onto our pile of changes. Gen 4 mechanics without moves or abilities is wild to begin with.

senile's main argument against the implementation of these moves (iirc) was that it would encourage a strategy based on RNG, over using a more sure fire move like giga drain. However, now that giga is special and bullet seed is one of the only viable physical grass moves, I dont think that argument holds much weight. Same goes for icicle spear, though ice punch is definitely more prevalant than physical grass moves.

 

What I'm saying is, I agree with you that there's no real reason NOT to implement these changes - if we're not getting gen4 moves anytime soon, these will at least help a little bit for those pokes who are stranded in 'no man's land' between gens

Edited June 9, 2015 by Gunthug

[ThinkNice]

lf breloom viability (although also need technician)

[Excelimpulse]

Lf gen 4 abilities and moves. I cry knowing they will not come for awhile.

[Viking]

Lf gen 4 abilities and moves. I cry knowing they will not come for awhile.

95% of the actual community are not waiting for that.

[Excelimpulse]

95% of the actual community are not waiting for that.

pretty sure scarf specs abilities and moves would solve a lot of problems if not all of them.

[Yaguarete]

im agree, leaf blade is the only grass physical move, and a big part of grass type pokes doesnt has acces to it. it could be a great adition to some pokes like parasect, piloswine, corsola, octillery, etc. other pokes like breloom and cacturne would be at least beneficiated; the ability to break substitutes is always a great thing.

[Arimanius]

In that case, pin missile should be included too I think, same reasons