[OU Discussion] Chansey (Remains OU)

[KaynineXL]

That is a bit of a stretch. If you think special sweepers are good here, you must think they are descendants of god in gen 6 where they psyshock/life orb/nasty plot/choice specs/scarf/focus blast. That being said, special attackers do have the advantage of being faster than the average physical attackers. Alakazam and espeon wouldn't be that great, but they happen to outspeed every physical attacker besides aero. I guess choice scarf is the double edged sword of offensive pokemon. I don't really think the meta will be trapinch+3-4 special sweepers, just because special sweepers can get blocked pretty easily by a secondary special wall or aerodactyl/metagross

Not to mention Pursuit is a menace for most special attackers, more so than physical attackers which usually have some bulk.

[LuisPocho]

You wanna play a game where everyone needs aero? Or the 1st one to calm mind his ho fire zam sweaps the game? Cause thats what losing chansey means. Besides aero and tauros there are no really viable physical attacker that can sweap like zam and jolt. (Talking about speed here) while zam and jolt can setup and rock the world with little support, aero and tauros will need their choice band or they will be shit sweapers.

Im pertaining to chansey banned meta btw

I personally dont always run chansey cause smart offensive players sweap me whenever i switch my chansey out, try grabbing some comps bra like sd ursa, hera, blaziken and you will love seeing your oponent running chansey.

With no chansey you can still stop special attackers... umbreon and pory are still good walls, garde, venu and ludi are good too... and many pokes can resist 1 hit (machamp with some hp evs can survive 1 psychic from starmie WTF)... they need +1 sp atck to 1hko most of the pokes, but all those fast sweepers are paper and there is no priority special attacks; and both pokes and attacks dont have so much variety... jolteon would still be walled by half the meta, so no problem for aero...  in OU most special sweepers are weak against pursuit... not forget about dragon dance gyarados and kingdra and agility metagross... endure/salac users

even withouth chansey I think physical sweeper will be better than special sweepers... but they would become a huge menace and would be good

about you losing whenever you switch your chansey out, I dont believe thats a valid point, in tournaments many many players use chansey and still dont instantly loose all their walls against heracross/ursa  (I personally run a lot ursa, meta, machamp, etc and I always know its not free kill just because a chansey appeared)

[SpartacusGD]

With no chansey you can still stop special attackers... umbreon and pory are still good walls, garde, venu and ludi are good too... and many pokes can resist 1 hit (machamp with some hp evs can survive 1 psychic from starmie WTF)... they need +1 sp atck to 1hko most of the pokes, but all those fast sweepers are paper and there is no priority special attacks; and both pokes and attacks dont have so much variety... jolteon would still be walled by half the meta, so no problem for aero... in OU most special sweepers are weak against pursuit... not forget about dragon dance gyarados and kingdra and agility metagross... endure/salac users

even withouth chansey I think physical sweeper will be better than special sweepers... but they would become a huge menace and would be good

about you losing whenever you switch your chansey out, I dont believe thats a valid point, in tournaments many many players use chansey and still dont instantly loose all their walls against heracross/ursa (I personally run a lot ursa, meta, machamp, etc and I always know its not free kill just because a chansey appeared)

I didnt mention free kill, but 1 mispredict of the chansey user can cost him alot. Thats my point. Actually even chansey itself CAN lose to alakazam / espeon. And you mentioned aero, yeah i know that already read my post again and see i mentioned it. Chansey is a fckin chansey lol. It was UU once ffs. Haha. I get all the hate on blissey and lax thats cool, but chansey come on. We all can deal with this. Ou is becoming a tier to eliminate all sp def walls, umbreon? P2? Picture sub rain dance kingdra for example. Idk just my opinion chansey is very far from any uber characteristic

[KaynineXL]

This is how much I don't care about Chansey. I'd take Blissey and Gengar back in a heartbeat :)

 

Fuck you Lax, stay where you are.

[DoctorPBC]

Salamence would fix the Chansey problem


Jus saiyan

[Robofiend]

What about just bringing Gengar back and not Blissey?

 

EDIT: And Tyranitar

Edited January 27, 2016 by Robofiend

[KaynineXL]

What about just bringing Gengar back and not Blissey?

I was against Gengar ban in the first place.

 

I would be down.

[Vaeldras]

What about just bringing Gengar back and not Blissey?

 

EDIT: And Tyranitar

 

The idea is to unban tyranitar so we can allow gengar to stay, right?

if this is the case, you'd better focus on tyranitar first.

I was taking a break from the game when the split happened and i only got back when it was already banned so i don't know why exactly it was banned in the first place.

What exactly changed that would make tyranitar ok now?

[Robofiend]

The idea is to unban tyranitar so we can allow gengar to stay, right?

if this is the case, you'd better focus on tyranitar first.

I was taking a break from the game when the split happened and i only got back when it was already banned so i don't know why exactly it was banned in the first place.

What exactly changed that would make tyranitar ok now?

 

Not entirely srs on this one, but I was never really in favor of Tyranitard getting the boot in the first place because of how quickly we tested and then banned it - essentially one tournament. Being entirely srs, I'd prefer that we get Scizor, Jirachi and Focus Blast before we really try to bring it back though.

[codylramey]

Not entirely srs on this one, but I was never really in favor of Tyranitard getting the boot in the first place because of how quickly we tested and then banned it - essentially one tournament. Being entirely srs, I'd prefer that we get Scizor, Jirachi and Focus Blast before we really try to bring it back though.

Haha focus miss only works 50% of the time. Bullet punch would be nice doe. Wouldnt jirachi get rekt by EQ? Or levitate?

[Robofiend]

Haha focus miss only works 50% of the time. Bullet punch would be nice doe. Wouldnt jirachi get rekt by EQ? Or levitate?

 

Rachi outspeeds neutral Ttar and its bulky enough to swap in on Rock Slide. It's also a nice way to stop to DD/Taunt/STABs sets that expect Skarmory. Swampert's also there to stop Quake/Slide sets or take coverage attacks like Fire Punch. Also, if we got Rachi, I'd hope we hhave Scarf, U-Turn and Iron Head.

 

Oh and focus miss is 70%

Edited January 28, 2016 by Robofiend

[RysPicz]

Ima be offtopic but shouldn't this go to viability thread? Also im up for bringing down ttar even though I know it is going to be banned soon after. I will repeat myself from the discussion about bringing Zard down:
Im gonna make you regret it the very first tournament it will be allowed in.

[DrCraig]

Ima be offtopic but shouldn't this go to viability thread?

Read like 3 comments up its not off topic really. Tyranitar isn't coming down also, if you read 3 comments up, its theory.

[spoiler]But I mean it's the same thing as Rhydon anyway right[/spoiler] Edited January 28, 2016 by DrCraig

[RysPicz]

Read like 3 comments up its not off topic really. Tyranitar isn't coming down also, if you read 3 comments up, its theory.
[spoiler]But I mean it's the same thing as Rhydon anyway right[/spoiler]

My bad, tough to read in work at phone while sitting in toilet.
Either way, there are 2 ou officials coming up (qualifier and tt). Lets pay attention to Chansey in the matches, nothing was done in OU since dug ban which was in October i think. If you do not want to ban Chansey then at least give us an idea of how to fix that broken tier instead of sitting and doing nothing. Edited January 28, 2016 by RysPicz

[Vaeldras]

My bad, tough to read in work at phone while sitting in toilet.
Either way, there are 2 ou officials coming up (qualifier and tt). Lets pay attention to Chansey in the matches, nothing was done in OU since dug ban which was in October i think. If you do not want to ban Chansey then at least give us an idea of how to fix that broken tier instead of sitting and doing nothing.

 

the discussion was opened in october, but the ban actually happened 41 days ago.

[OrangeManiac]

My bad, tough to read in work at phone while sitting in toilet.
Either way, there are 2 ou officials coming up (qualifier and tt). Lets pay attention to Chansey in the matches, nothing was done in OU since dug ban which was in October i think. If you do not want to ban Chansey then at least give us an idea of how to fix that broken tier instead of sitting and doing nothing.

If you feel like the tier is broken in some way, there's a thread to request an OU discussion. If you feel like the tier is broken because Chansey then yes, everyone here has read your stance on this and all arguments will be taken into consideration when a decision whether something is banworthy.

But if your premise is that the tier is broken without explination it's hard to take you seriously right now. Edited January 29, 2016 by OrangeManiac

[RysPicz]

If you feel like the tier is broken in some way, there's a thread to request an OU discussion. If you feel like the tier is broken because Chansey then yes, everyone here has read your stance on this and all arguments will be taken into consideration when a decision whether something is banworthy.
But if your premise is that the tier is broken without explination it's hard to take you seriously right now.

I think I have voiced myself enough in the discussion about Chansey. I feel like it is causing the tier to be shit but council does nothing with it. So I am asking, what are your suggestions.
My objective is to make a healthy and enjoyable tier for everyone. How about you?

[OrangeManiac]

I think I have voiced myself enough in the discussion about Chansey. I feel like it is causing the tier to be shit but council does nothing with it. So I am asking, what are your suggestions.
My objective is to make a healthy and enjoyable tier for everyone. How about you?

If your objective is to make an enjoyable tier for everyone, why wouldn't you listen to those numerous people in this thread who have perfectly reasonable arguments against the banning of Chansey? If there was a universally agreed perfect metagame, that would have been made ages ago. Obviously this stuff is subjective as heck. When there are suggestion to make the metagame better, those ideas will be heard from us. At the same time we're open to hear any suggestions to make the metagame better.

Also suggesting that it's even questionable to you that the goal of the tierlist council is anything else than make a healthy and enjoyable tier makes me really wonder why did I bother to respond this kind of stuff. Especially to an ex-council member who should know how this stuff works: and that isn't doing major decisions based on by unsure opinions. Edited January 29, 2016 by OrangeManiac

[RysPicz]

If your objective is to make an enjoyable tier for everyone, why wouldn't you listen to those numerous people in this thread who have perfectly reasonable arguments against the banning of Chansey? If there was a universally agreed perfect metagame, that would have been made ages ago. Obviously this stuff is subjective as heck. When there are suggestion to make the metagame better, those ideas will be heard from us. At the same time we're open to hear any suggestions to make the metagame better.
Also suggesting that it's even questionable to you that the goal of the tierlist council is anything else than make a healthy and enjoyable tier makes me really wonder why did I bother to respond this kind of stuff. Especially to an ex-council member who should know how this stuff works: and that isn't doing major decisions based on by unsure opinions.

This goes both ways. Why won't you listen to numerous perfectly accurate arguments of people who want to get rid of it from ou? Yeah it is subjective but if there are so many people complaining about one poke then something is obviously wrong.
My suggestion is to test ban the pink blob for 4 tournaments (see: Scizor). There you go.
About tiering and me being a council member in the past, you do not know shit Orange. You know nothing Jon Snow.
And yeah I am questioning councils decisions as it seems like it is just like it was when I was in council back then but I won't take out my dirts in priv, I will let you know via pm/ ingame.

[XPLOZ]

My opinion :

 

First let's talk a bit about chansey's ban.

I think that it is not necessary. Chansey is a weaker Blissey, it can only attack with seismic toss while the last one can play many special moves which forces the opponent to scout the moveset before taking a bad super effective hit. Chansey has also one status move : either toxic or twave. Many pokemons are immune to those moves (poison, steel... to sponge the poison and ground, electric... to sponge the paralysis). Just manage to make a team which can deal with both. While those skarms/foretress can setup some spikes, things like rhydon, marowak or metagross will laugh at twave or toxic and put pressure on opponent's team. Also, we have some guts users : Machamp / Heracross / Hariyama / Ursaring. Every of them can come at an opportune time and do massive damage. Even some special attackers can take down chansey. Yes special attackers, I am not joking, you just have to be a bit creative (I know that it is complicated for a lot of players who used to play generic sets). By thinking about it shortly, i can see already 2 possibilities, and one of them is already tested and approved. Not gonna tell too much about it cause you know, I need an invite for the OU championship.

Come on guys, we had to deal with Blissey all this time, and we can't even take down her little sister in OU ? I didn't even talk aout the possibilities of playing mixed sweepers, something that the community seems to have forgotten.

 

Some comment about a possible come back of gengar/blissey and even ttar. Guys, we have to focus about making a competitive game. Banning things to then unban them is pointless and doesn't fit at all this purpose. We need a kind of stability. I am not saying that the metagame has to be stagnent and that we musn't ban anything. But we need some consistency with the decisions that are taken. When recent players start to settle in PokeMMO's competitive scene, we can't just take them down by changing drastically the metagame (with a COME BACK on a previous decision !!!) and even more in a game where grind is huge. If something is broken, of course we have to discuss it and eventually ban it. Also if the game mechanics change (for example with the physical/special split), we can review some decisions. But we are not in this case here. Of course, I do not talk in any interested way, I have those 5-6 gengars with different sets, i would be able to adapt myself very quickly.

Apart from that, i don't really get the point of unbanning Gengar and Blissey. If we banned them before, there are reasons. What is going to happen if we do that is simple : Gengar will be everywhere, as it was before and Blissey will be the only solution against Gengar so everyone is gonna play it, even more than chansey. It will destroys the diversity of special walls : cause yeah there is at the moment some diversity. We can see some Ludicolos, Gardevoirs, Porygons. Don't expect to see them again if we bring back the 2 others. Our meta has obvious balancing problems, because of this 3G/4G mix. But i really think that the special defensive side had been already a lot weakened with the bans of Bliss, Snorlax & Ttar. From the view of a OU player, our OU metagame is very decent at the moment. Diversity is possible, and the tourneys' winners prove it (UU is a lot worse and it'd be maybe preferable to focus on this).

Finally, some people talked about unbanning ttar... Do you even know what this means ? In my opinion, if we unban one of the 4 monsters (including salamence, dragonite, ttar & snorlax), we just have to unban all of them to "balance" everything. Such a bad idea for the reasons I talked about before.

Edited January 29, 2016 by XPLOZ

[DrCraig]

Well said XPLOZ

[Robofiend]

Finally, some people talked about unbanning ttar... Do you even know what this means ? In my opinion, if we unban one of the 4 monsters (including salamence, dragonite, ttar & snorlax), we just have to unban all of them to "balance" everything. Such a bad idea for the reasons I talked about before.

 

Mostly joking on that one, sorry for the red herring. 

 

I agree that unbanning Gengar isn't the best option. I personally find the current state of OU to be pretty agreeable, minus some annoying parts like Linoone or super heavy stall teams (which can get rekt pretty hard by Blaziken or Ursaring in the right conditions). I think it's cool that a lot of new sets have been used since Gengar/Trio were banned: from Block Metagross to Blaziken to CB Swampert to Subseed Sceptile, there are a lot of options now that would go by the wayside if everyone had to readapt to running 3 Gengar counters every match.

 

EDIT: @4f

 

I understand that you're frustrated, but I think that the majority of the council thinks Chansey is annoying but ultimately not a major problem for the game. We don't think that because we just think that, we think that because that's generally what people have said in the thread - it's not banworthy but it is a huge pain in the ass.

 

Earlier in this thread, I pushed a lot for a ban, but after the Dugtrio ban and some more meta adaption, I've kinda lost my will to ban it. I'm not entirely sold on that point of view: maybe in a month when literally everyone is using it, it will be overcentralizing or broken. But right now I think its flaws are just too exploitable for us to make sense of a ban.

 

More than anything, its hard to see what banning Chansey would fix. Lots of other pokemon can Wish/Protect stall, spam Toxic and cleric teammates (although I have said that Chansey's NC ability is a really important improvement in the past). The most annoying parts about Chansey (Toxic/ST chip damage/Cleric) would still be present in other forms. Stall will never die, sadly, it's just something that happens.

Edited January 29, 2016 by Robofiend

[Spaintakula]

Mostly joking on that one, sorry for the red herring. 

 

I agree that unbanning Gengar isn't the best option. I personally find the current state of OU to be pretty agreeable, minus some annoying parts like Linoone or super heavy stall teams (which can get rekt pretty hard by Blaziken or Ursaring in the right conditions). I think it's cool that a lot of new sets have been used since Gengar/Trio were banned: from Block Metagross to Blaziken to CB Swampert to Subseed Sceptile, there are a lot of options now that would go by the wayside if everyone had to readapt to running 3 Gengar counters every match.

This is the thing people should be focusing on, instead of finding reasons to ban the little pink cunt. I know there's not much to work with, since we still don't have the proper resources from later gens, but for the love of god, I'm pretty sure people can spend more time thinking of a way to go around chansey than to insist on banning it. In our twisted metagame. There are ways to deal with it, and I can see people saying "But that makes chansey too centralizing, ban it", no,  it just turns out chansey is gonna be the one poke that defines the metagame, and I'm talking after all the bans that is. More bans would be futile, atleast that's what I think, feel free to disagree, not like we all have the same view on it anyway.

[Albeast33]

We've been on this topic for months now. Scizor is going to have a final decision made on it before you guys reach a decision.

 

My input on the topic is that we need to reset the meta completely. One ban is always going to lead to another because by taking away one thing, you're taking away something's weakness, possible making it too much to handle now. We don't want to see a vigorous cycle.

 

As a beginner comp breeder, I have had to breed 9 Pokémon, yet I don't have a proper competitive team yet because of how much the tiers are constantly changing. 

 

I'm for whatever route gives us stability.

[OldKeith]

We've been on this topic for months now. Scizor is going to have a final decision made on it before you guys reach a decision.

My input on the topic is that we need to reset the meta completely. One ban is always going to lead to another because by taking away one thing, you're taking away something's weakness, possible making it too much to handle now. We don't want to see a vigorous cycle.

As a beginner comp breeder, I have had to breed 9 Pokémon, yet I don't have a proper competitive team yet because of how much the tiers are constantly changing.

I'm for whatever route gives us stability.

So how do you imagine a reset will bring stability?