specs / scarf

[DoubleJ]

To be honest, I'm a little upset that these items were introduced. In all fairness, we have been told since the beginning of time that we wouldn't be getting Gen 4 items, moves, or abilities until the dev team implemented a Gen 4 region. Sadly now, we've been given these items and honestly have no clue what other Gen 4 (or later gen) aspects we might be getting and when. I think a reset is necessary, but there shouldn't be a reset if we can only expect more 'gamebreaking' items, moves, or abilities tossed in all willy-nilly here and there. 

 

Devs done trolled the comp scene with this one. 

 

 

EDIT: If the tier council does anything, it's to reintroduce (or just test) Snorlax since it can't take Choice Specs (Special Power Band or whatever) attacks from Starmie, Jolteon, Alakazam, and other hard hitting special attackers. 

Edited April 14, 2016 by DoubleJ

[axx]

idk about lax, best specials barely 3hko, not to mention a para and you are done for

[spoiler]

mixed defenses
252 SpA Choice Specs Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 144 HP / 176+ SpD Snorlax: 85-102 (33.5 - 40.3%) -- 37.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Starmie Hidden Power Fighting vs. 144 HP / 176+ SpD Snorlax: 74-88 (29.2 - 34.7%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 144 HP / 176+ SpD Snorlax: 93-111 (36.7 - 43.8%) -- 99.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Starmie Hidden Power Fighting vs. 144 HP / 176+ SpD Snorlax: 80-96 (31.6 - 37.9%) -- 0.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

full special wall
252 SpA Choice Specs Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Snorlax: 79-94 (29.5 - 35.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Starmie Hidden Power Fighting vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Snorlax: 68-82 (25.4 - 30.7%) -- 2.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Snorlax: 87-103 (32.5 - 38.5%) -- 4.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Starmie Hidden Power Fighting vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Snorlax: 76-90 (28.4 - 33.7%) -- 95.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

mixed defenses
252 SpA Choice Specs Alakazam Psychic vs. 144 HP / 176+ SpD Snorlax: 85-102 (33.5 - 40.3%) -- 37.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Alakazam Hidden Power Fighting vs. 144 HP / 176+ SpD Snorlax: 90-106 (35.5 - 41.8%) -- 83.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Alakazam Psychic vs. 144 HP / 176+ SpD Snorlax: 93-111 (36.7 - 43.8%) -- 99.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Alakazam Hidden Power Fighting vs. 144 HP / 176+ SpD Snorlax: 98-116 (38.7 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

full special wall
252 SpA Choice Specs Alakazam Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Snorlax: 81-96 (30.3 - 35.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Alakazam Hidden Power Fighting vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Snorlax: 84-100 (31.4 - 37.4%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Alakazam Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Snorlax: 88-105 (32.9 - 39.3%) -- 13% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Alakazam Hidden Power Fighting vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Snorlax: 92-110 (34.4 - 41.1%) -- 63.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

[/spoiler]

[RysPicz]

Ban the items from tournament mode/ matchmaking until more of gen4 stuff will be implemented.
Problem solveds

[Kiliminati]

Ban the items from tournament mode/ matchmaking until more of gen4 stuff will be implemented.
Problem solveds

So until never?

Can we seriously expect them to implement the life orb and various generation 4 moves/abilities any time soon? I highly doubt it. And don't even try to start thinking about the implementation of generation 4 Pokemon- I'll be an old man by that point. Edited April 14, 2016 by Kiliminati

[BlackJovi]

Ban the items from tournament mode/ matchmaking until more of gen4 stuff will be implemented.
Problem solveds

That would be dope 

[bigbangattack]

Personally i thought it was an awesome implementation and if you can get mad about spicing up a very grindworthy mmo then i chalk that up to ungratefullness..
it will be bumpy qith the tiering process but the current tiers while not ideal are very playable...and ill enjoy seeing what movesets and pokemon become more viable over the next month or two. Lets face it....choice band alone kinda sucked....i would like to see some assault vest though.
And we have a good chance at getting our gengar and snorlax back hopefully even dragonite so im down....its amazing that everyone who hated the gengar ban is mad now that these items make his return possible....sorry devs you cant please this crowd

[XPLOZ]

Not sure about unbanning gengar, it still has his huge versability. The only difference is that now it can be spec'd or scarf'd, which makes it even more scary xD

[Gunthug]

To be honest, I'm a little upset that these items were introduced. In all fairness, we have been told since the beginning of time that we wouldn't be getting Gen 4 items, moves, or abilities until the dev team implemented a Gen 4 region. Sadly now, we've been given these items and honestly have no clue what other Gen 4 (or later gen) aspects we might be getting and when. I think a reset is necessary, but there shouldn't be a reset if we can only expect more 'gamebreaking' items, moves, or abilities tossed in all willy-nilly here and there. 

 

Devs done trolled the comp scene with this one. 

 

 

EDIT: If the tier council does anything, it's to reintroduce (or just test) Snorlax since it can't take Choice Specs (Special Power Band or whatever) attacks from Starmie, Jolteon, Alakazam, and other hard hitting special attackers. 

Haha the devs have been blindsiding us for years. The great yenpocalypse, fusion breeding, phys/special split - you can almost count on them pulling the rug out from under us about once a year. I guess I'm just numb to it now - we can either roll with the punches or quit, and we both know that one of those options is a lot easier said than done

[codylramey]

Yea, i understand that the tiering process is going to be long but damn it seems like you people just want to find anything and everything to complain about. I like that the meta is going to change, i like that there are going to be new and exciting threats to worry about, and honestly i think that these items are going to make more pokemon more viable which is awesome. We can freeze UU and NU as they are now, test a OU with a reset (maybe bar salamence) and then go from there.

[bigbangattack]

Not sure about unbanning gengar, it still has his huge versability. The only difference is that now it can be spec'd or scarf'd, which makes it even more scary xD

Biggest problem with gengar imo was sub with resistance to bullet seed and 3 attacks which isnt as vable now that it cant sub on more threats due to fear of choice scarf

[Thunderprime]

Ban the items from tournament mode/ matchmaking until more of gen4 stuff will be implemented.
Problem solveds

this guy cant be more right

[Kurodashi]

Idk if it is the right way to go or not but I don't feel like the 2 items should be banned.

 

As some others have stated some communication between devs/TC to get some information about possible future implementations is needed I am sure TC will be happy to communicate.

[SirYurop]

Imo is a cool addition to metage sure we need 2 grind new pokes but give it a couple of months and u will see a lot of diversity on a more offense oriented metagame.

im also down for tiers reset..may only lax n mence get to ubers again

[LuisPocho]

is it me or people are not using the new choices too much in pvp? 

[CodeAlchemisT]

is it me or people are not using the new choices too much in pvp?

Maybe people want to surprise others in tourney, we will notice actual usage there.

[OrangeManiac]

Even though Specs and Scarf wouldn't be used on a lot of Pokemon, for me it's still enough change to invalidate the power structures our tiers have. We don't seem to acknowledge that the difference between our current OU and NU isn't exactly that big. Hypno and Gardevoir are separated by 2 tiers and Hypno isn't exactly 'that much worse' than Gardevoir, for example. In usage one thing always leads to another.

 

In addition, the reasons for bans with Snorlax, Dugtrio, Gengar, technically Blissey too don't apply to our state of metagame anymore. Heck, I'd even argue the reasons of bans with pseudo 3 aren't exactly justifiable either as they were. Do I think they would be banworthy in our current metagame? Well, sure.. but technically speaking.

[codylramey]

Idt ttar is banworthy nymore bc scarf allows more pokes to outsoeed at +1. Im sure there are some that disagree which is why a test should happen imo.

[LuisPocho]

Even though Specs and Scarf wouldn't be used on a lot of Pokemon, for me it's still enough change to invalidate the power structures our tiers have. We don't seem to acknowledge that the difference between our current OU and NU isn't exactly that big. Hypno and Gardevoir are separated by 2 tiers and Hypno isn't exactly 'that much worse' than Gardevoir, for example. In usage one thing always leads to another.

 

In addition, the reasons for bans with Snorlax, Dugtrio, Gengar, technically Blissey too don't apply to our state of metagame anymore. Heck, I'd even argue the reasons of bans with pseudo 3 aren't exactly justifiable either as they were. Do I think they would be banworthy in our current metagame? Well, sure.. but technically speaking.

well, thats true, but we are starting from the point that they seems to be super game breaking... and I was thinking, we didnt even considered that they could be not that important in pokemmo

I could argue that there are some good reasons that make choice banders better than choice spec and choice scarf, but my point is that now that I havent seen many choice scarf and spec doing great plays (well I have seens mostly OU matchs) Im starting to seriusly consider that those items are not that game breaking

[R3TR0NIX]

well, thats true, but we are starting from the point that they seems to be super game breaking... and I was thinking, we didnt even considered that they could be not that important in pokemmo

I could argue that there are some good reasons that make choice banders better than choice spec and choice scarf, but my point is that now that I havent seen many choice scarf and spec doing great plays (well I have seens mostly OU matchs) Im starting to seriusly consider that those items are not that game breaking

Starmie

[OrangeManiac]

Something to consider:

Salamence - 135 base atk - CB Dlaw (80 power) = OP asf
Alakazam - 135 Sp. Atk - Specs Psychic (90 power) - raw power literally stronger than the most OP Pokemon we considered in our meta. The only difference is Zam can be walled to death. Which means we have two archetypes: Hyper physical offense or Dugtrio + Specs offense.

Fucking yay.

@Luis

Something doesn't need to be gamebreaking to affect the meta. Because we have bliss and umb we might not even get that much trouble with specs but it still controls the meta hugely. Predicting 50% Umbreon usage. What comes to scarf, it always makes mid speed tier sweepers better and fast sweepers less reliable.

Edited April 18, 2016 by OrangeManiac

[LionKIng]

Damn I think im starting to have a little man crush on orange. You have been speaking my mind with your posts on the situation. Yes a reset should be done but ONLY if the meta is not gonna change for at least 6 months, this meaning no new items, no new pokemons no new nothing. If the devs are planning on introduciing new stuff then pls hurry up so we can have a reset ASAP.

 

As I see it right now, stuff that were previously banned in OU to Ubers may or may not be still banworthy but we atleast need to try. And IF those pokemons, mainly blissey and lax because they are walls, stay OU then stuff like pory may move down to UU based on usage. So a reset would benefit all the tiers and not only OU.  

 

Also, as I see it right now, with the addition of scarf and specs, some pokemons may be troublesome in the lower tiers for the lack of sp def wall in them because of lax blissey being banned in OU, meaning that its all scaled up (this is all speculations, but pory would be UU, cleff would prob be NU). The sp def walls in NU and UU can't handle the raw power of specs, specially in NU, the best sp def wall before specs was raichu, wich now gets 2 hited by everything that is neutral damage to it, wich is a huge problem for the tier. 

 

So instead of trying to fix all 3 tiers at the same time, by banning specific mons that are now too strong for the meta , we should be having a reset and then target a tier at a time and see from there whats obviously too strong and slipped down by usage and then deal accordingly with them so we can have 3 healthy tiers.

 

I also fear that like we've seen when something gets moved down, people don't use them right away because A)They werent ready for it or B )they don't ahve the ressources to breed them. This will affect heavyly the usage and the overseing of a tier. People that have for exemple lax vs people that don't have it will show, and people will say lax is too strong because they don't have one themselves, or because they just werent ready for a lax meta vs people that were. This goes for every tier, when something gets moved down we should have a notice so we can prepare for it, mentally and resource wise. So, for a tiering by usage to be 100% reflecting the true meta, we need a period of time to prepare for it, or else the above problems will happen every time and will biase either the theorymon behind banning a poke because it was deamed too good, or watching a poke go by and stay in a tier just because people were not ready for it to then realise it was too op to start with but nobody had the ressources or taught it was going to get banned fast so they never bred one because it was a ''waste'' of money. 

 

 

TL;DR we need a reset but only if theres nothing planned to change the meta in the following months after the reset is done, it takes time to do tiers properly and I don't think people feel like having screwed up or non existing lower tiers 4/12 months a year. At least I don't. 

Edited April 18, 2016 by LionKIng

[DrCraig]

I haven't made too serious of a post yet and for the most part I don't mind the outcome. No matter if we reset, unbans, or stay the same, the usage will sort the tiers back out will it bother me much. I do think it would be appropriate to unban Pokemon in order to reevaluate bans. As for the lower tiers, I haven't but much thought into it, but for OU it's only fair that Blissey, Snorlax, Gengar and Dugtrio get their band lifted. Each of them was banned under cloudy suspect tests for being unhealthy and now with new items which potentially threaten them more, they could possibly be fine in the tier. Reevaluting each of their band would be nice. Our meta has changed a ton since then and of course this is due to the lack of banned mons, but it's pretty offensive which should help these mons remain in check. I don't approve of unbanning ttar, mence and Dnite however because I don't think the new items effect them enough and if anything they are receiving more options. Overall I'm pretty indifferent to the issue though. I could see why unbanning these Pokemon would be a waste of time also. Unbanning Pokemon could be justified but we should probably stick to what we have now. Im pretty confident usage will do its thing.

Tl;dr Unbanning Snorlax/Bliss/Gar/Dug would be fair and understandable but I don't think it's necessary. Usage will sort the shit out.

[AQA]

252+ SpA Choice Specs Wailord Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Snorlax in Rain: 168-198 (62.9 - 74.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Wailord UBER  :)

 

 

please ban choice scarf from NU or weather teams are R.I.P.

[Kurodashi]

please ban choice scarf from NU or weather teams are R.I.P.

 

I heard a few times that the bands should be banned in the lower tiers but imo if we ban them from the lower tiers (and allow in OU) it would fake the usage statistics.

We don't know a lot as of now but something that is currently NU might be UU once we get usage statistics or even something that wasn't really viable will be playable in NU

 

Aslong as the bands don't get a general ban they need to be allowed in every tier not only one.

[BurntZebra]

I mean specs/scarf won't be banned when the devs implemented them to improve the meta in the first place.

Also weather teams weren't that viable in the first place anyways.