Tier Reset Announcement and Discussion

[Arimanius]

6 hours ago, XPLOZ said:

Yes and no. I'm complaining about Lax which can learn Body slam, so more about Lax than anything else as it seems that we don't want complex bans.

I don't think that body slam is a problem on other Pokemons. It's a problem on Lax because Lax is a huge special wall with a very good attack. Add to this his stab body slam, and Lax is extremely punishing. It comes on nearly all the special attackers and put those amazing paralysis. Lax without Body slam wouldn't be the same at all, and would be a loooooooot less unhealthy, in my opinion.

Yeah I get where u're coming from and I personally have to face hax every single match, even more against snorlaxes so I understand but yeah I don't think we could punish one pokemon for just one move, I know complex bans are not a thing and possibly won't be a thing either (I don't get why since there are just a few few pokemons that could use this) so I get your reasons but still, I think that won't make it banworthy but idk, snorlax has always been problematic, first because of curse (not much of a problem now) now because the body slam spam and parahax that is indeed annoying as hell

 

EDIT: And Pageking cause why not? :3

Edited June 17, 2016 by Arimanius
Pageking Dominance! :D

[codylramey]

I use miltank a lot and Bslam paras have won me more than one match in unranked. Maybe we should just ban bodyslam xD

[codylramey]

Can we have a serious discussion about banning bodyslam?

 

I know it may sound silly but the move doesnt really add anything to the meta. There is a much more powerful move available in return and every pokemon that uses body slam learns it. The ONLY reason to use body slam is for parahax, which is not only frustrating to play against it could be argued that it is unhealthy because people are only using it for the rng aspect behind it and its not unprecedented to ban things for that reason. Also, in the OU meta at least, there is only one pokemon that can avoid being parad while constantly taking bslams and that is dusclopse.  I can see banning bodyslam as being only positive, but ofc im a lil bias. Any thoughts?

[Gunthug]

5 hours ago, codylramey said:

Can we have a serious discussion about banning bodyslam?

 

I know it may sound silly but the move doesnt really add anything to the meta. There is a much more powerful move available in return and every pokemon that uses body slam learns it. The ONLY reason to use body slam is for parahax, which is not only frustrating to play against it could be argued that it is unhealthy because people are only using it for the rng aspect behind it and its not unprecedented to ban things for that reason. Also, in the OU meta at least, there is only one pokemon that can avoid being parad while constantly taking bslams and that is dusclopse.  I can see banning bodyslam as being only positive, but ofc im a lil bias. Any thoughts?

I don't think it deserves much of a discussion. If your logic is "we should ban it because it doesn't add anything to the meta" then an enormous amount of moves would likewise be banned. If your logic is "we should ban it because a more powerful move exists" then an enormous amount of moves would likewise be banned. If your logic is "we should ban it because x Pokemon can abuse it" then we should just ban X.

 

Body slam on its own isn't a problem - for most Pokemon, thunder wave is a more reliable option if your aim is to paralyze something. Yes, snorlax can be very annoying when utilizing this move (and miltank to an extent) but a Pokemon like Lapras certainly isn't a problem with body slam, so I see no credible argument whatsoever for a flat ban of the move 

[codylramey]

My argument is not either of the two things that you just said. My argument is that it is a move that is only chosen because of the RNG aspect. There is not one pokemon that would chose Bslam over return if not for parahax. This rng aspect is "cancer" and makes the meta worse off. To what extent is up to individual interpretation, but i do believe that the move is cancerous enough discuss banning and, aside from the rng aspect, useless enough that there would be no downside to banning it.

 

If the rest of the community doesnt agree then you know w/e. But it was worth bringing up imo.

[Gunthug]

23 minutes ago, codylramey said:

My argument is not either of the two things that you just said. My argument is that it is a move that is only chosen because of the RNG aspect. There is not one pokemon that would chose Bslam over return if not for parahax. This rng aspect is "cancer" and makes the meta worse off. To what extent is up to individual interpretation, but i do believe that the move is cancerous enough discuss banning and, aside from the rng aspect, useless enough that there would be no downside to banning it.

 

If the rest of the community doesnt agree then you know w/e. But it was worth bringing up imo.

First, if youre saying that a move that's only chosen over a superior move because of the RNG aspect deserves a ban, then Flamethrower should be banned because the only reason people run it over fire blast is the miss chance.

 

Not to mention, this same discussion has come up time and time again in later gens, often with much more problematic mechanics, and it's been denied time and time again. Lava plume is a gen 6 later gen move with a 30% chance to burn, and it has absolutely no competitive use over flamethrower/fire blast other than the burn chance - however, it's never been deemed problematic enough to even warrant a discussion. Scald is another one that has frequently come up, and there are a bunch of reasons why scald is MUCH MORE uncompetitive and problematic for the metagame than body slam - and even so, the pretty overwhelming consensus is that scald doesn't deserve a ban because of this.

 

And finally, a move that is currently being discussed heavily on smogon (but only in PU) is Dynamicpunch, which has the same base power as cross chop but has a 100% chance to confuse if it hits. Notice that its a 100% chance (far higher than body slam's 30% chance to para), and the consensus is STILL that the move doesn't deserve a flat ban, since only a couple of pokemon (machoke, namely) can even abuse it due to their ability, no guard, which takes away its 50% accuracy. So, your argument shows a complete lack of information regarding similar situations in comparable metagames, and it simply doesn't warrant a discussion here.

 

Honestly, I find thunder wave to be several degrees more uncompetitive than body slam, but I don't see you complaining about how a move that literally has a 100% chance to land a status that takes turns away from your opponent "deserves a ban." How you can call a 30% chance to paralyze "cancer for the meta" while 100% chance doesn't even come up on your radar is beyond me

Edited June 21, 2016 by Gunthug

[Gunthug]

I'll add that this isn't an unreasonable request or anything, Cody, a lot of very very respectable players in later gens are the ones bringing up the scald/dynamic punch discussions and I know your intentions are good. I can say pretty confidently though that it's not something the tier council will be discussing for the reasons I mentioned above

[codylramey]

30 minutes ago, Gunthug said:

First, if youre saying that a move that's only chosen over a superior move because of the RNG aspect deserves a ban, then Flamethrower should be banned because the only reason people run it over fire blast is the miss chance.

The RNG that comes with bslam and the RNG that comes with fireblast or any less than accurate move is completely different. You know that and i suspect i dont have to explain to you why it is different.

30 minutes ago, Gunthug said:

So, your argument shows a complete lack of information regarding similar situations in comparable metagames, and it simply doesn't warrant a discussion here.

We have gone against smogons decisions before, its not unprecedented that we do it again if we think it would better our meta. We banned baton pass where smogon complex banned it. What i am asking is not going against ban criteria so i dont see why the tier counsel would flat out disregard the suggestion should the comp community want it.

 

The difference in thunder wave and bslam is that when i send in a pokemon that gets twaved, if needed that pokemon to not be parad then i made a bad play. If i send in a pokemon that can take a bslam and it gets parad then i have bad rng. And i do not believe that we as a comp community should have to deal with this particular rng aspect (bslam para) and that it could be banned without effecting anything else.

 

25 minutes ago, Gunthug said:

I'll add that this isn't an unreasonable request or anything, Cody, a lot of very very respectable players in later gens are the ones bringing up the scald/dynamic punch discussions and I know your intentions are good. I can say pretty confidently though that it's not something the tier council will be discussing for the reasons I mentioned above

I do appreciate this post statement as i felt like you were talking down to me in your first post. But i ask you to keep an open mind with this, i am not asking you to go against ban criteria so should the comp community show interest in this to at least consider giving it thought. But if you come on here and say "Its not going to happen" anyone who may agree with me, and there may not be anyone, wont feel that it is worth it to voice their opinion.

Edited June 21, 2016 by codylramey

[RysPicz]

Reminds me of the "discussion" Zeb raised once to ban Aerodactyl cuz rockslide flinches

 

I'll allow myself to make some assumptions after playing the meta in every tier (both ranked/ unranked and officials), I don't like speaking about stuff I didn't experience myself.

 

OU: Snorlax deserves AT LEAST a discussion thread. What is it's usage right now? Like 60%? Using Snorlax has literally no downsides. I played few guys who were sacking their entire party hoping for a curselax comeback after I couldn't phaze it out.

Then, after Snorlax, we have to think about mixed: Meta, Blaziken and finally orbed physical (or with TBolt in Gyara's example) Gyarados and Heracross. Mixed Metagross is impossible to wall, with it's orbed HP Fire/ Shadow Ball/ Meteor Mash/ Psychic it covers the entire tier to the range of 2hko on every poke with the appropriate move (except swampert maybe).

Mixed Blaziken is a bit less of an issue as Arcanine can still switch on it and proceed to morning sun to make Blaziken kill itself with orb recoil, other than this probably only Gyarados can switch in and only if Blaziken does not carry Thunderpunch (which they very often do).

Gyarados and Heracross are similar examples, SD Heracross is scared away practically only by Skarmory, Gyarados by Cloyster and maaaaaaybe Pory2 (or HP Elec Swampert) and you have to carry a check/ counter for them or otherwise they will ravage through your party. Definietly all four are "S" ranked OUs with Snorlax being an issue enough to warrant a discussion thread.

 

UU: Doge is gone which is great, but... Dodrio is still there. Also except Dodrio I'm also worried about Miltank but Dodrio is just broken.

 

NU: A clusterfuck. Kingler is broken, Granbull is broken, Sharpedo is broken. Mixed Queen also looks scary as fuck in there but I haven't played it myself and it's a fucking pain to breed one.

Only safe switch for Kingler is Tangela/ Bellossom. Poliwrath sounds cool in theory but in practice it cannot scare Kingler away with any of it's moves and has no reliable recovery.

Granbull has no safe switches.

Sharpedo's only (semi) safe switch is Poliwrath which will progressively get worn down and after killed, Shark will consume the entire party. Even bulky grass types will die after orbed crunch + Ice Beam (maybe Bello can live but this depends too much on IVs, spread and natures).

 

 

Pls fix

[londark]

About the body slam ban thing.

 

The problem isn't Body Slam in itself, it's just that Snorlax is the perfect abuser for it. Do Tauros run it? Do Slaking run it? Do other normal types run it? The main pick of Body Slam for Snorlax is the fact that 30% of the times (on papar) it "fixes" Snorlax speed issue beeing low, by cutting the opponents speed, and doing non negligable damages. If the move is in fact abused by only one pokemon the problem most likely isn't the  move in itself.

 

Let's compare it with scald. Every single water(and non) type that can learn it uses it, barring Hydropump for the way better damage, instead of the more powerful Surf (15 bp i think) and that's why, supported by the fact that scald is litterally cancer, you can argue that the move in itself could be an issue.

 

Dynamicpunch is another issue, similar to body slam actually, since the only 3 real abusers of it are Machop in LC ( scarf no-guard is really ebin ), Machoke and Machamp (to a lower extend Golurk line as well ), and the only reason for that is their ability, most other pokes won't ever consider running it except for meme pourpose

 

[gbwead]

I don't think Body Slam is banworthy, but I do get where Cody is coming from.

 

I don't think Body Slam can be compared to any other hax moves. Rock Slide can miss, only has 75 bp instead of 85 and a flinch's impact only last one turn. We also have very good Rock resistance pokemons in OU that can threathen rock slide spammers directly. Dynamic Punch confuses the target. Confusion can be removed by switching out unlike para. I suppose there must be some own tempo pokemons that don't care about the confusion. Ghost types can probably avoid the confusion as well. Scald is very similar to Body Slam, but there are still major differences. From the little I know about OU ORAS, water absorb pokemons and natural cure pokemons don't really care about Scald. In PokeMMO, nothing likes to take a para. We don't have electric types that have reliable recovery. Dusclops is the only thing that doesn't get rekd by a body slam para, but Dusclops is a bait to so many things that relying on it becomes problematic. 

 

Despite all of that, it is pretty evident to me that Body Slam is not the problem since Snorlax is the only pokemon that truly benefit from it in a cancerous way. I have seen some Gyarados play Body Slam before, but I don't believe it is very good. The main reason why some Gyarados run Body Slam is probably because they don't have 100% happiness. Miltank in UU/OU doesn't have Snorlax's raw power and really suffers from choosing Body Slam over Return. I have seen in NU someone play a Lapras Waterfall/Body Slam/DD/Substitute. It was pretty good. Hiding behind a sub, spamming Body Slam until para and then using the para momentum to set up more DD. Choosing Body Slam over Return on Lapras is a big sacrifice though, as it restricts its direct sweeping potential a lot.

 

Imo, the main reason why Body Slam is so effective on Lax is because Lax puts tremendus pressure as soon as it comes in play. Even if Snorlax was playing Return, there are still not many pokemons that can counter it. There are so many way to play Snorlax to avoid getting hard countered. It is so difficult to gain back momentum against Lax and Body Slam lax makes what's difficult nearly impossible.

 

4 hours ago, RysPicz said:

SD Heracross is scared away practically only by Skarmory, Gyarados by Cloyster and maaaaaaybe Pory2 (or HP Elec Swampert)

What kind of non sense is this? Just play Gligar and Tangela like everyone else xD

 

[OrangeManiac]

Where are UU and NU Tier Discussion requests btw? Writing those to other threads kinda get confusing.

[codylramey]

Isnt snorlax only at 40 something percent 4fi? Still, i wouldnt mind getting rid of him because he magnifies the problems i have with bslam. I have no comment on the other stuff tho.

[pachima]

vaporeon and specially defensive ludicolo check rly well mixed meta. Granbull rly depends on prediction to be able to destroy switch ins.

[RysPicz]

9 minutes ago, pachima said:

vaporeon and specially defensive ludicolo check rly well mixed meta. Granbull rly depends on prediction to be able to destroy switch ins.

Yeah vap is legit, but spec def Ludi isn't really very common, you only keep seeing the defensive ones (cuz schwampert I guess).

Granbull on the other hand does not depend on prediction as long as it carries Orb, which it should, as it gives Granbull enough firepower to 2hko every poke in the tier (maybe bar shuckle)

[Grimreminder]

I have been gone for  over maybe 2 to 3 years. And all I can say is that there is no point in a reset when it's going end up as the same result. Snorlax is going to get send back to Ubers in a couple weeks of usage because there are so many people that will complain about it. If you have to reset for a second time but bring less Pokemons back to the OU meta, there's some wrong right there. The physical / special in my opinion was half ass done. Yes, it kinda did made a lot of Pokemons a lot better but in return it fuck over a lot of pretty good pokemons. And the reason why I say half ass is that instead of adding the 4th physical/special moves to help make this split more effective, the developers wants to still use the same 3rd generation moves. Making the split completely pointless in my opinion. All I can is that the only way that can solve this problem (which I know a lot of people will know what I'll say) is pretty simple. It's either add all of the 3rd generation mons to use or it's time to move up a generation. I know a lot of people love this because of nostalgia. But it's time to move on. If this still continues to be a problem, then you really should not be surprise. I have low expectations in the reset mainly due to past experience with the reset.

 

P.S. You have every right to disagree or agree with me as these are my own opinions. But due to past experience, if you have to response this comment with insults, then your comments are irrelevant to me. i'm not trying to come off as negative but expressing what I feel about this reset. If you can't handle a opinion then get the fuck off of the internet.

 

Also hello to anyone that remembers me.

Love you guys and Peace

^_^

[Gunthug]

20 hours ago, Grimreminder said:

I have been gone for  over maybe 2 to 3 years. And all I can say is that there is no point in a reset when it's going end up as the same result. Snorlax is going to get send back to Ubers in a couple weeks of usage because there are so many people that will complain about it. If you have to reset for a second time but bring less Pokemons back to the OU meta, there's some wrong right there. The physical / special in my opinion was half ass done. Yes, it kinda did made a lot of Pokemons a lot better but in return it fuck over a lot of pretty good pokemons. And the reason why I say half ass is that instead of adding the 4th physical/special moves to help make this split more effective, the developers wants to still use the same 3rd generation moves. Making the split completely pointless in my opinion. All I can is that the only way that can solve this problem (which I know a lot of people will know what I'll say) is pretty simple. It's either add all of the 3rd generation mons to use or it's time to move up a generation. I know a lot of people love this because of nostalgia. But it's time to move on. If this still continues to be a problem, then you really should not be surprise. I have low expectations in the reset mainly due to past experience with the reset.

 

P.S. You have every right to disagree or agree with me as these are my own opinions. But due to past experience, if you have to response this comment with insults, then your comments are irrelevant to me. i'm not trying to come off as negative but expressing what I feel about this reset. If you can't handle a opinion then get the fuck off of the internet.

 

Also hello to anyone that remembers me.

Love you guys and Peace

^_^

A grim reminder of what happens when you only read the OP

[LifeStyle]

So uh, why are Kingler/Granbull still NU?

[RysPicz]

7 minutes ago, LifeStyle said:

So uh, why are Kingler/Granbull still NU?

Granbull is actually manage-able because NU is pretty fast paced, I haven't had any problems with it yet. What worries me more than Granbull is Sharpedo which has no reliable switchin at all (my HP grass one 2shoted a Poliwrath after it took some very minor damage coming from crunch). Kingler and Sharpedo are my main concerns right now but we:

a) DO not have a discussion thread for either

b) We do not have NU viability thread

c) We do not have a NU Tier discussion request thread

 

 

For fuck's sake TC leaders stop slacking off. Ban Dodrio already and get to work.

[YettoDie]

The problem with Sharpedo is that is a fast mixed attacker, has a massive possibility to basically 2shot the whole tier bar a couple of pokes. Even tho NU has basically changed to include some faster pokes like Electrode which have become more common lately, noone will think about switching in Electrode on an incomming Sharpedo attack. The only 'reliable' switch in on Sharpedo is Scyther, but thats only on a predicted EQ.

 

I guess it might be smart to take Sharpedo under the loop, as LO made it hella strong.

[BlackJovi]

8 minutes ago, Appelsap said:

The problem with Sharpedo is that is a fast mixed attacker, has a massive possibility to basically 2shot the whole tier bar a couple of pokes. Even tho NU has basically changed to include some faster pokes like Electrode which have become more common lately, noone will think about switching in Electrode on an incomming Sharpedo attack. The only 'reliable' switch in on Sharpedo is Scyther, but thats only on a predicted EQ.

 

I guess it might be smart to take Sharpedo under the loop, as LO made it hella strong.

isn't defensive poli the most commonly used switch in for sharpedo? 

 

just dont know why u used scyther as example as the only 'reliable' switch in lol 

Edited July 4, 2016 by BlackJovi

[YettoDie]

1 minute ago, BlackJovi said:

isn't defensive poli the most commonly used switch in for sharpedo? 

I did mention bar a couple of pokes, 0 SpA Life Orb Sharpedo Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Poliwrath: 73-86 (37 - 43.6%), would it be healthy to basically have to run Poli to counter sharpedo?

[LifeStyle]

2 minutes ago, BlackJovi said:

isn't defensive poli the most commonly used switch in for sharpedo? 

Ye and it walls it so ez lmao

Sharpedo isn't scarier than CB Dedge Granbull, it can literally revenge kill some shit every turn if you don't have a reliable switch in

[BlackJovi]

Just now, Appelsap said:

I did mention bar a couple of pokes, 0 SpA Life Orb Sharpedo Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Poliwrath: 73-86 (37 - 43.6%), would it be healthy to basically have to run Poli to counter sharpedo?

people dont only use poli cuz its a nice pedo counter, but its a nice defensive poke overall imo 

[YettoDie]

Just now, LifeStyle said:

Ye and it walls it so ez lmao

Sharpedo isn't scarier than CB Dedge Granbull, it can literally revenge kill some shit every turn if you don't have a reliable switch in

"walls it so easy", hp grass is still an easy 3hko, also never said granbull wasnt scary, it is. Downside of Bull is that is quite slow, 65 with no invest, 97 max, 106 jolly, quite a couple of pokes are either naturally faster or with a bit of investment. Sharpedo does have the 161 speed with + nature, not many pokes reach that.