[OU Discussion] Snorlax [Test banned]

[pachima]

10 minutes ago, Hotarubi said:

Wow, just wow.....

Please ban this and stop the "stale chansey meta" defense.

Or atleast ban body slam!

This is exactly what you ask for @Tyrone

Barely having a snorlax free ou after the new items are available feels like support to test the 

Test ban of snorlax.

Chansey is much more easy to get around. After this lax ridiculous meta, I wouldn´t even mind getting against chansey.

 

EDIT: And page King.

Edited September 19, 2016 by pachima

[Hotarubi]

2 minutes ago, pachima said:

Chansey is much more easy to get around. After this lax ridiculous meta, I wouldn´t even mind getting against chansey.

 

EDIT: And page King.

100% agree with this.

I welcome a chansey any day vs a snorlax.

Snorlax cant be called a spdef wall like chansey.

Its both that wall and it's a sweeper too.

Complete total cancer.

[gbwead]

The Incredible M'champ !

Round 4

Sebat vs Wiriketchup

 

Wiriketchup's Snorlax is completly walled by Sebat's Milotic and yet Snorlax still manages to pressure severely the opponent. If it wasn't for Diglett coming in as a RK, Wiriketchup would have most likely won. 

[DoubleJ]

41 minutes ago, pachima said:

Chansey is much more easy to get around. After this lax ridiculous meta, I wouldn´t even mind getting against chansey.

 

EDIT: And page King.

I don't mean to sound salty, so bear with me when I say this: there will be a discussion thread, or at least a number of players posting about how unhealthy a meta dominated by Chansey really is. So whether you are getting hit by 30% Body Slam paralysis or having to dodge Thunderwave spam, it really doesn't matter much. What Snorlax offers to the meta is the ability to strike back with your special defense wall in a variety of different ways. Chansey just flat out has one moveset, swapping between Toxic and Thunderwave as it evades Growth Jolteon and Venusaur. 

 

A number of posters have already made it apparent that one of the absolute worst things about a Chansey meta is the fact that the safest switch in to Chansey, is another Chansey. Bleh. 

 

Currently, we have one of the most diverse, popular, and fun OU tiers we have ever encountered. We will always have something to complain about, so what's the real problem here? Being unable to account for versatility and having your counter-team counter-teamed, or Snorlax actually being uncompetitive/unhealthy? After reading through most of this thread, I believe it's the former. 

[gbwead]

4 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

Currently, we have one of the most diverse, popular, and fun OU tiers we have ever encountered.

A poll would be help us determine whether or not this is true ^^

[DoubleJ]

7 minutes ago, gbwead said:

A poll would be help us determine whether or not this is true ^^

I think we've already discussed how terrible polls are regarding discussion threads countless times. Subjectively Objectively, we can simply look at usage stats (yes a large variety of pokemon are being used) and the popularity of OU tournaments (256-man tournaments filling). The only argument that is valid is how "fun" OU currently is. I have my complaints, but I still find this version of OU much better than any prior rendition.  

Edited September 19, 2016 by DoubleJ

[kevola]

1 hour ago, DoubleJ said:

There they go again, listing every move a Snorlax could ever run to counter you! When was the last time you saw Crunch on Snorlax, c'mon brah!

Sub + Crunch is a set some run. As is Sub + Surf

 

Kinda forces you to bring both Rhydon and Dusclops if you want to counter it which I find quite annoying 

Milotic is one Pokemon that consistently does well against it but it isn't fair if everyone is forced to run that. The fact that it can get many moves to counter different Pokemon means it's horrible to prepare against 

Edited September 19, 2016 by kevola

[gbwead]

2 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

I think we've already discussed how terrible polls are regarding discussion threads countless times. Subjectively, we can simply look at usage stats (yes a large variety of pokemon are being used) and the popularity of OU tournaments (256-man tournaments filling). The only argument that is valid is how "fun" OU currently is. I have my complaints, but I still find this version of OU much better than any prior rendition.  

I actually think our current meta is getting worse and worse as time goes by. In couple of months - if not already - it could easily be the worse OU meta I have ever seen in PokeMMO. 

 

Like this comment if you agree ^^ (polls are fun, more fun than Snorlax)

 

[Hotarubi]

7 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

I think we've already discussed how terrible polls are regarding discussion threads countless times. Subjectively Objectively, we can simply look at usage stats (yes a large variety of pokemon are being used) and the popularity of OU tournaments (256-man tournaments filling). The only argument that is valid is how "fun" OU currently is. I have my complaints, but I still find this version of OU much better than any prior rendition.  

On the other hand.

I FEEL snorlax is absolutely taking away from the fun of the game.

Opinions are the least valuable type of information here.

Whats needed to be decided is if snorlax is factually healthy for OU GAMEPLAY.

BASED on facts.

[DoubleJ]

2 minutes ago, gbwead said:

I actually think our current meta is getting worse and worse as time goes by. In couple of months - if not already - it could easily be the worse OU meta I have ever seen in PokeMMO. 

 

Like this comment if you agree ^^ (polls are fun, more fun than Snorlax)

 

Can you at least explain why you think this tier is getting "worse and worse" as time goes by? The only two negatives I can see is the prevalence of SubSwagger Jolteon in matchmaking and players freely spamming Body Slam for paralysis rather than trying to predict with Snorlax. Beyond this I've seen a wide variety of pokemon being used (which is always fun) and a variety of different sets showing up. 

 

Again, is Snorlax being in the tier a pain in the ass for a player's counter-team or is it truly just a problem for every player?

 

 

[Hotarubi]

7 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

players freely spamming Body Slam for paralysis 

 

Again, is Snorlax being in the tier a pain in the ass for a player's counter-team or is it truly just a problem for every player?

 

 

So basically my stance is that building a substantial counter for snorlax in its entirety can often times cause a severe weakness to other pokemon.

Once snorlax ends up not being in the match and you planned to counter it just to be safe.... No snorlax and often times said poke end up being a weakness rather than a strength had you faced snorlax.

Freely spamming bodyslam hoping for para has pretty much become a strat.

That single fact is whats ruining the OU tier currently making it less fun to play overall.

I was happy once milotic was implemented, but remembering snorlax was in the ou tier took away from that joy for me.

[RysPicz]

For me the meta looks like that:

A poke to counter lax appears, becomes good at it (Rhydon).

Snorlax adapts to it and fucks you over in official because your team scouted the opponet's main Snorlax counter and Snorlax used Surf. Get rekt.

Another poke appears (Dusclops). Snorlax adapts. Uses Sub and Crunch.

Another poke appears (Skarm). Snorlax adapts, uses Fire Blast or flamethrower.

 

Sure Snorlax can't run all the moves at once but he really does not fucking have to when scouting in this game is so easy and not discouraged at all. All he needs is a proper set against a previously scouted enemy. Matchmaking is a different story but we all know that it's the tournaments that really matter, and regardless, Snorlax is a problem in matchmaking as well.

 

And obviously keeps spamming paraslam everywhere, paralyzing and haxing every poke not immune to it, seriously deciding the outcome of the match. I even described my example of how my Snorlax screwed over my enemy thanks to paralyze and hax.

Besides I've seen a fucking whole lot of battles where people just sacked their entire party to set up their curselax at the end and win with it, for me it became way too good not to use and it causes problems to literally every player.

 

I've watched the replays that Jim, Nik and Gbweak posted and I'm fucking disgusted about this poke to a degree where I belive Snorlax is even more cancerous than a goddamn Dugtrio

 

E:

Let's not forget about CB Lax made to pursuit trap and fuck your Starmie sideways, preventing you from spinning

Edited September 19, 2016 by RysPicz

[Hotarubi]

3 minutes ago, RysPicz said:

For me the meta looks like that:

A poke to counter lax appears, becomes good at it (Rhydon).

Snorlax adapts to it and fucks you over in official because your team scouted the opponet's main Snorlax counter and Snorlax used Surf. Get rekt.

Another poke appears (Dusclops). Snorlax adapts. Uses Sub and Crunch.

Another poke appears (Skarm). Snorlax adapts, uses Fire Blast or flamethrower.

 

Sure Snorlax can't run all the moves at once but he really does not fucking have to when scouting in this game is so easy and not discouraged at all. All he needs is a proper set against a previously scouted enemy. Matchmaking is a different story but we all know that it's the tournaments that really matter, and regardless, Snorlax is a problem in matchmaking as well.

 

And obviously keeps spamming paraslam everywhere, paralyzing and haxing every poke not immune to it, seriously deciding the outcome of the match. I even described my example of how my Snorlax screwed over my enemy thanks to paralyze and hax.

Besides I've seen a fucking whole lot of battles where people just sacked their entire party to set up their curselax at the end and win with it, for me it became way too good not to use and it causes problems to literally every player.

 

I've watched the replays that Jim, Nik and Gbweak posted and I'm fucking disgusted about this poke to a degree where I belive Snorlax is even more cancerous than a goddamn Dugtrio

Even more cancerous than dugtrio.

<3 forfiter 100% agreed.

 

 

[gbwead]

11 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

Can you at least explain why you think this tier is getting "worse and worse" as time goes by? The only two negatives I can see is the prevalence of SubSwagger Jolteon in matchmaking and players freely spamming Body Slam for paralysis rather than trying to predict with Snorlax. Beyond this I've seen a wide variety of pokemon being used (which is always fun) and a variety of different sets showing up. 

 

Again, is Snorlax being in the tier a pain in the ass for a player's counter-team or is it truly just a problem for every player?

I have explained why Snorlax is uncompetitive several times already and I know you read my posts since you commented on them. I don't have the energy to explain how I feel about Snorlax in OU all over again, but feel free to look back at first pages of this discussion thread. 

 

The fact that 256 man bracket are filling up or that we see a lot of different pokemons being used has little to do with the current meta, but more with how the game have changed from a technical standpoint. Over the past 6 months, the player base from which usage is gathered has significantly increased thanks for matchmaking and automated tournaments. New players = new playstyles = new pokemons being used. Saying OU is fun because 256 man brackets are filling up is absurd since we only had one 256 man bracket tournament so far. There is no comparison to be made here.

[Spaintakula]

On 9/17/2016 at 0:21 PM, Hotarubi said:

LF  A decision to made on this.

I'm pretty sure nobody can justly defend snorlax staying in the OU tier, aside from the claim that the Chansey meta was stale.

I see no reason why it should stay if pokemon like TTAR, and Salamence sit in the UBER tier.

 

15 pages and you think all of those were filled by everyone agreeing snorlax is aids? It's a discussion for reason, no need for false assumptions

[OrangeManiac]

39 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

I think we've already discussed how terrible polls are regarding discussion threads countless times. Subjectively Objectively, we can simply look at usage stats (yes a large variety of pokemon are being used) and the popularity of OU tournaments (256-man tournaments filling). The only argument that is valid is how "fun" OU currently is. I have my complaints, but I still find this version of OU much better than any prior rendition.  

Yeah, exactly. If you look at the usage table of OU now compared to what it has been.. I don't think it has ever been this 'diverse'. The only unhealthiness what comes to Snorlax is about itself, Snorlax itself might be just too good in too many ways. What comes to the tier usage around it, I see nothing to complain about. I can see the complaints about the 'fun' factor, biggest issues being parahax and lack of idiot proof counters but it's another question how legitimate these concerns are what comes to decide if it's Uberworthy. And let's remember that a ban from OU has to be really thought out, not just something you can experiment with because boohoo I lost a tourney against one noob using annoying lax. (Yes, I'm aware it's very nubbish Pokemon lessening the importance of good playing compared to RNG but like I've said it belongs in the game)

[Hotarubi]

2 minutes ago, Spaintakula said:

15 pages and you think all of those were filled by everyone agreeing snorlax is aids? It's a discussion for reason, no need for false assumptions

So whats your stance on snorlax then?

Or are you also just against a stale chansey meta....?

[DoubleJ]

Just now, gbwead said:

I have explained why Snorlax is uncompetitive several times already and I know you read my posts since you commented on them. I don't have the energy to explain how I feel about Snorlax in OU all over again, but feel free to look back at first pages of this discussion thread. 

 

The fact that 256 man bracket are filling up or that we see a lot of different pokemons being used has little to do with the current meta, but more with how the game have changed from a technical standpoint. Over the past 6 months, the player base from which usage is gathered has significantly increased thanks for matchmaking and automated tournaments. New players = new playstyles = new pokemons being used. Saying OU is fun because 256 man brackets are filling up is absurd since we only had one 256 man bracket tournament so far. There is no comparison to be made here.

But you didn't answer my question about why the meta is getting "worse and worse". I'd like to hear your perspective on this. 

 

Also, I didn't say OU is "fun" because 256 man tournaments are filling up, I said OU was "popular" because 256 man tournaments are filling up. Actually, I even disputed my own claim that OU was "fun". I do agree though that the popularity is skewed by new game mechanics which offer more players to be included. And in addition, having new players, new playstyles, and new pokemon being introduced is something that is extremely healthy for the game. Maybe someone will find that hard counter to Snorlax that some players so desperately need. 

 

Random question, but do usage stats include unranked matches in addition to ranked and tournament play?

[Spaintakula]

Just now, Hotarubi said:

So whats your stance on snorlax then?

Or are you also just against a stale chansey meta....?

I'm not against a stale chansey meta, I'll adapt anyway. You all wont, and in 2-3 months time, if lax is banned, another discussion will come about chansey's unhealthiness to the metagame, and you'll start doing the same circle that's been going for a while now, hoping for a better metagame, while knowing deep in your mind you're never gonna get it, so it's something to do until X things come to the game. What we can do is just adapt to one metagame and work with it, and not constantly switch back and forth. But hey, it's pokemmo, things always go like that, so you all have to adapt to that too.

[OrangeManiac]

2 minutes ago, Hotarubi said:

So whats your stance on snorlax then?

Or are you also just against a stale chansey meta....?

Just please stop with these loaded questions. Acting like you can see only one counter-argument against Lax ban isn't only absurd but incredibly arrogant.

[Tyrone]

2 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

Random question, but do usage stats include unranked matches in addition to ranked and tournament play?

No they don't. So the 250 daily duels on average is excluding the most common matchmaking system... 

OU Is the most popular it's ever been, even when taking playerbase growth into consideration.

 

It has to be well thought through to make a change to a metagame that's currently very liked generally.

[gbwead]

1 minute ago, DoubleJ said:

But you didn't answer my question about why the meta is getting "worse and worse". I'd like to hear your perspective on this. 

Imo, considering Snorlax leaves little to no place for creativity, the meta can only get worse by becoming stale and utterly booring where skills no longer determine who is the winner of a duel. Once again, I am refering to the fact that unhealthiness is directly related to centralisation in the case of Snorlax and I am also refering to the fact that players will eventually lose interest in playing competitively in PokeMMO since there is nothing competitive about our current meta. 

[DoubleJ]

Just now, Tyrone said:

No they don't. So the 250 daily duels on average is excluding the most common matchmaking system... 

OU Is the most popular it's ever been, even when taking playerbase growth into consideration.

 

It has to be well thought through to make a change to a metagame that's currently very liked generally.

Thanks, but also another question. How does Smogon's usage statistics work, do they include absolutely every match on the system? Hopefully the devs can implement a system for garnering usage statistics which can be portrayed in game. 

 

And also I wish you guys luck when you do get a chance to meet up on TS and finally make a decision here. I'm currently polling LYLE regarding a potential Snorlax ban. I'll return here with the results. 

[DoubleJ]

1 minute ago, gbwead said:

Imo, considering Snorlax leaves little to no place for creativity, the meta can only get worse by becoming stale and utterly booring where skills no longer determine who is the winner of a duel. Once again, I am refering to the fact that unhealthiness is directly related to centralisation in the case of Snorlax and I am also refering to the fact that players will eventually lose interest in playing competitively in PokeMMO since there is nothing competitive about our current meta. 

That is a very bold and very subjective statement to make, and it's unfortunate to see honestly. As we've argued countlessly, Pokemon is inherently RNG prone and thus is not dictated completely upon skill. 

 

It's interesting to have such a different viewpoint from you, where you see the meta becoming more and more centralized when I actually see the meta becoming more and more diverse as players think of ways to stop Snorlax. No longer do you simply see Skarmory or Rhydon, but rather very intriguing sets on Venusaur, Ludicolo, and Gyarados. We see more mixed attackers and more teams that support those mixed attackers. We're seeing Snorlax lose its ability to sweep with Curse and have to rely more and more on gimmicky sets such as Sub + Fire Blast/Surf, which truly inhibit its ability to make an impact on a match other than by snagging an unfortunate 30% paralysis with Body Slam. 

 

At the end of the day, this is an extremely subjective decision that is about to be made and it's on you and the rest of the council members to make it. Don't exhaust yourself arguing your points with us, but rather prepare your case for your other council members. Those are the people you have to persuade, not myself or the community. 

 

Spoiler

Also, just for shits and giggles, Bold Milotic with Haze + Recover hard counters every popular Snorlax set. Body Slam paralysis actually boosts Milotics defenses and provides an extra bump to its stalling capability (also prevents Toxic from killing it off). It isn't trapped by anything and it can really put a thorn in Snorlax' side. This is just for those players that really have no clue how to stop Snorlax (Belly Drum when?)

 

[Spaintakula]

9 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

Thanks, but also another question. How does Smogon's usage statistics work, do they include absolutely every match on the system? Hopefully the devs can implement a system for garnering usage statistics which can be portrayed in game. 

 

And also I wish you guys luck when you do get a chance to meet up on TS and finally make a decision here. I'm currently polling LYLE regarding a potential Snorlax ban. I'll return here with the results. 

To answer you that, I think they use a system where they have a usage list for every 100 poins on ladder or so. Usage for ladder players with 1000-1100, then 1100-1200, and etc. Idk how they generalize the usage statistics, or where they take it from the most, but that much I know.