[PSL 6] Week Four

[Gunthug]

Just now, Rendiz said:

I'm going to be honest I can't remember the decisions you had but for the most part the reasons they had were pretty fucking poor. Wasn't Guerinfs excuses that he went out and got drunk and forgot about it? That doesn't even seem remotely comparable to a random ass earthquake.

I don't remember any of the specific activity decisions really, but the reason doesn't matter. When you set a rule in stone, it gives everyone notice that there will be no exceptions and that's how it deters people from scheduling late, not showing up to their first "time," etc. If you make an exception, even for an earthquake, you lose the intended effect of the rule. As has been brought up already, this is the risk you run when you schedule on Sunday right at the deadline, and it sounds like there was ample time to make a sub. It sounds like no sub was made because your team was banking on JJ bending the rules, which is ridiculous

[DoctorPBC]

15 minutes ago, Gunthug said:

I don't remember any of the specific activity decisions really, but the reason doesn't matter. When you set a rule in stone, it gives everyone notice that there will be no exceptions and that's how it deters people from scheduling late, not showing up to their first "time," etc. If you make an exception, even for an earthquake, you lose the intended effect of the rule. As has been brought up already, this is the risk you run when you schedule on Sunday right at the deadline, and it sounds like there was ample time to make a sub. It sounds like no sub was made because your team was banking on JJ bending the rules, which is ridiculous

No sub was made because I was in surgery and Forf was asleep just FYI

 

ill add my 2c later when I'm off data 

[Rendiz]

1 minute ago, Gunthug said:

I don't remember any of the specific activity decisions really, but the reason doesn't matter. When you set a rule in stone, it gives everyone notice that there will be no exceptions and that's how it deters people from scheduling late, not showing up to their first "time," etc. If you make an exception, even for an earthquake, you lose the intended effect of the rule. As has been brought up already, this is the risk you run when you schedule on Sunday right at the deadline, and it sounds like there was ample time to make a sub. It sounds like no sub was made because your team was banking on JJ bending the rules, which is ridiculous

 

I understand the concept of a deadline but I don't think making an occasional exception based on a very extreme circumstance would cause the rule to lose its intended effect. In the majority of real life scenarios where deadlines are set in place they would almost always make exceptions for freak events such as this, and considering this is a game with little to no importance nothing has been lost from this and the situation is still salvageable. I do admit however that this would open up a grey area which would be undesirable the chance of anything falling into that would be slim and seems like a pretty poor reason do deny this. This seems very reminiscent of the slippery slope argument that is constantly disregarded as a solid argument so it doesn't seem particularly solid here.

 

About the scheduling time / lack of substitution I already addressed it in my previous rant where the first is more yangs fault if we were to place blame. For lack of substitutions considering our shitty situation of having a temp manager + some very unreliable subs there was little options for substitutions to be made. And considering nobody had any idea what was happening with Ari you can bet that we weren't "banking on JJ bending the rules" we really had no options.

[Gunthug]

4 minutes ago, Rendiz said:

 

I understand the concept of a deadline but I don't think making an occasional exception based on a very extreme circumstance would cause the rule to lose its intended effect. In the majority of real life scenarios where deadlines are set in place they would almost always make exceptions for freak events such as this, and considering this is a game with little to no importance nothing has been lost from this and the situation is still salvageable. I do admit however that this would open up a grey area which would be undesirable the chance of anything falling into that would be slim and seems like a pretty poor reason do deny this. This seems very reminiscent of the slippery slope argument that is constantly disregarded as a solid argument so it doesn't seem particularly solid here.

 

About the scheduling time / lack of substitution I already addressed it in my previous rant where the first is more yangs fault if we were to place blame. For lack of substitutions considering our shitty situation of having a temp manager + some very unreliable subs there was little options for substitutions to be made. And considering nobody had any idea what was happening with Ari you can bet that we weren't "banking on JJ bending the rules" we really had no options.

The burden of proof here lies pretty heavily with those attempting to disturb the status quo, which is what everyone signed up for this season. Every single manager knew about the strict no extensions rule, and there is no gray area whatsoever, thats the point. You can't just dismiss any and all merit to the slippery slope argument that easily - it's entirely reasonable to think that by carving out an exception to one rule just to appease 10 people in a meaningless pokemon game, as youve repeatedly referred to it, JJ's other "set in stone" rules will get called into question as well.

 

To make things worse (Can't 100% confirm this because I'm not in the manager's PM thread), it seems the entire team is threatening to walk over one week's result - a week they can't even win, only tie. We can debate the ruling like adults, or we can hold the league hostage like little kids kicking and screaming. You seem to be doing the former, but rumors are that there's a pretty stubborn group who chose the latter, and that's just pathetic. That "it's just a pokemon game" argument spins both ways, especially re: quitting over a tie/loss

[DaftCoolio]

5 minutes ago, Rendiz said:

About the scheduling time / lack of substitution I already addressed it in my previous rant where the first is more yangs fault if we were to place blame. For lack of substitutions considering our shitty situation of having a temp manager + some very unreliable subs there was little options for substitutions to be made. And considering nobody had any idea what was happening with Ari you can bet that we weren't "banking on JJ bending the rules" we really had no options.

If it wasn't until friday they made contact its both of there faults, should of set an earlier time considering managers (and players should of been as well) were all well aware of the consequences of missing a match. The unforeseen should of been foreseen (as in something may come up best to get the match done asap) and so should of set an earlier time.

[DoubleJ]

Can we all stop for a minute and remind ourselves that yang offered multiple times on Sunday and that ari chose 6-7pm edt as the best fit for his schedule?

 

The argument that yang is somehow at fault is a weak one. 

[Laz]

 

Spoiler

Ik this doesn't concern me but I'm just wondering, since a natural disaster is the cause of arimanius activity loss ( with proof ) is there any chance for yangsam to offer a rematch to arimanius tomorrow/today and settle it down, and let it be an exception for PSL6, implying this won't happen again as the chances of it happening again during this PSL 6 is really really as low as me encountering a shiny. If that match weren't to decide the outcome of that long week matches I'm sure no drama would have been caused.
Just a though cuz team8, no bias.

 

[Rendiz]

18 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

Can we all stop for a minute and remind ourselves that yang offered multiple times on Sunday and that ari chose 6-7pm edt as the best fit for his schedule?

 

The argument that yang is somehow at fault is a weak one. 

I think its pretty safe to say that evenings are the best times for most people. I think its also pretty safe to say that someone scheduling their match for the weekend is also extremely likely since people have lives and that is when the majority of people have the most free time. Hence weekend evenings are inherently going to be some of the most popular times for battles to be scheduled at. Taking these things into account and then taking into account that the Saturday option that was offered as well as no prior communication was initiated I don't think Ari can necessarily be blamed for the late scheduling. Sure he could have initiated the communication earlier but since he said he was busy earlier in the week it seems unlikely that the time / date would have been different.

 

I'm not trying to say it's Yangs fault, I'm trying to say that it wasn't really Ari's fault, more of a product of circumstance.

[whilt]

It's wrong to fault Arimanius for not scheduling earlier as a lot of you have suggested. That's hindsight bias. It was well within his rights to choose a best-fit schedule, regardless of how many options yang may have brought up. His intent to participate in his match is explicitly expressed insomuch as both parties agreed on a time, if not for an event that no one saw coming. In an event of this magnitude (pun not intended), it's insufficient to dismiss contentions simply because we ought to 'foresee the unforeseen.' In the same sense, I doubt that any one manager was clairvoyant enough to predict an earthquake when they subscribed to the 'status quo' with all its rules written in stone. You are downplaying the uniqueness of this case by leaving its judgment to mere technicality. Cases such as this are the very reason why we have safeguards such as the force majeure clause applied in our international laws. Really, how stubborn are we to reject what is right as expressed by law in its most grand narrative? 

 

This is a pro hac vice case. It demands a judgment just as sound.

Edited October 17, 2016 by whilt

[NikhilR]

1 minute ago, whilt said:

It's wrong to fault Arimanius for not scheduling earlier as a lot of you have suggested. That's hindsight bias. It was well within his rights to choose a best-fit schedule, regardless of how many options yang may have brought up. His intent to participate in his match is explicitly expressed insomuch as both parties agreed on a time, if not for an event that no one saw coming. In an event of this magnitude (pun not intended), it's insufficient to dismiss contentions simply because we ought to 'foresee the unforeseen.' In the same sense, I doubt that any one manager was clairvoyant enough to predict an earthquake when they subscribed to the 'status quo' with all its rules written in stone. You are downplaying the uniqueness of this case by leaving its judgment to mere technicality. Cases such as this are the very reason why we have safeguards such as the force majeure clause applied in our international laws. Really, how stubborn are we to reject what is right as expressed by law in its most grand narrative? 

Saying that it is wrong to fault Ari for not scheduling earlier is in itself bias. 

[gbwead]

6 hours ago, Kizhaz said:

it just seems childish

3 hours ago, Telf said:

you're all acting childish and you guys should move on

54 minutes ago, Gunthug said:

we can hold the league hostage like little kids kicking and screaming. 

When defiance is described as a childish and pathetic act, smh.

 

[whilt]

Just now, NikhilR said:

Saying that it is wrong to fault Ari for not scheduling earlier is in itself bias. 

Clearly, you missed my point. 

 

Further, in response to the criticism of my team being childish and dumb (or what have you) for withdrawing, you should know that we are doing this as a matter of principle. We simply find it futile to participate in an environment that we now know to be unjust. 

[JIceJDragon]

Tbh there is too much petty drama for this small and miniscule decision

It has been said before that there are no extensions and no exceptions to the deadline, it was also stated that a week suspension and activity loss was possible

From what I can tell I think JJ was wrong to give yangsam the win, but I wouldn't have given it to Arimanius either. Both were at somewhat of a fault but not big enough to give their opponent the win. That being said Cuboned would have still lost 5-4 to Carmello and the result is the same. This pettiness is somewhat annoying because Cuboned is crying over one loss but if they were as good as they say they are, they would get their shit together and win the rest of their matches. Like since they couldn't tie with Carmello, they are just gonna throw and lose against Swampert? Like The Savage Swamperts? thats like losing to UFO @DoctorPBC , dont do that. If you want to prove yourself, I'd start by having your trump card get some wins in the beginning of the week not the end and then winning ur weeks until you (maybe) face Carmello Komalas again in the Semifinals and show them what you are truly made of. Stop complaining about corruption and all that bullshit, its just one loss, I mean its not like you were gonna win the week anyway. At least this way you get more credits instead of points. Just get the fuck over it

[Mike]

When did PSL turn into a court room? Jesus. Anyway you can't really do anything about getting hit by a fucking earthquake. We should be glad he is still alive. Give him the match imo, this won't ever happen again.

[NikhilR]

1 minute ago, whilt said:

Clearly, you missed my point. 

 

Further, in response to the criticism of my team being childish and dumb (or what have you) for withdrawing, you should know that we are doing this as a matter of principle. We simply find it futile to participate in an environment that we now know to be unjust. 

 

12 minutes ago, whilt said:

It's wrong to fault Arimanius for not scheduling earlier as a lot of you have suggested. That's hindsight bias. It was well within his rights to choose a best-fit schedule, regardless of how many options yang may have brought up. His intent to participate in his match is explicitly expressed insomuch as both parties agreed on a time, if not for an event that no one saw coming. In an event of this magnitude (pun not intended), it's insufficient to dismiss contentions simply because we ought to 'foresee the unforeseen.' In the same sense, I doubt that any one manager was clairvoyant enough to predict an earthquake when they subscribed to the 'status quo' with all its rules written in stone. You are downplaying the uniqueness of this case by leaving its judgment to mere technicality. Cases such as this are the very reason why we have safeguards such as the force majeure clause applied in our international laws. Really, how stubborn are we to reject what is right as expressed by law in its most grand narrative? 

 

This is a pro hac vice case. It demands a judgment just as sound.

Okay then let me elaborate on your 2nd para. Both players are fault for not scheduling earlier. Yes, it's absolutely within the player's rights to choose a best fit schedule for them, but the player should notify the other of their best fit schedule as early as possible. Seeing as how this was done on Saturday, it's pretty fucking late and both players are at fault. His intent to participate is duly noted and I know that seeing as how I was his PSL teammate, but it matters so fucking much of how many options yang brought up. The reason why you have a backup time is EXACTLY in the case of these unforeseen circumstances. Ask XPLOZ how he initiated the scheduling and finalized it all well in advance. Do you know what time 6-7 PM EDT was for yang? 6:30 AM, which is basically a time at which yang was willing to duel. No manager was clairvoyant enough to predict the earthquake, but you don't have to be clairvoyant to make sure your player is online at the time scheduled time of his battle. You don't need to be clairvoyant to check what the scheduled time of the battle was and you don't need to be clairvoyant to arrange for a sub incase your player misses the deadline because this is what a manager / captain is supposed to do beforehand, like how Kiz subbed in NightArch when tim didn't meet the deadline for his duel. All of this should have been planned before.

 

What happened to Ari sucks ass, but if you ask your manager / captain as to what could've been done to avoid this mess, something definitely could've been done. 

[CCMayhem]

 

 

5 minutes ago, NikhilR said:

 

Okay then let me elaborate on your 2nd para. Both players are fault for not scheduling earlier. Yes, it's absolutely within the player's rights to choose a best fit schedule for them, but the player should notify the other of their best fit schedule as early as possible. Seeing as how this was done on Saturday, it's pretty fucking late and both players are at fault. His intent to participate is duly noted and I know that seeing as how I was his PSL teammate, but it matters so fucking much of how many options yang brought up. The reason why you have a backup time is EXACTLY in the case of these unforeseen circumstances. Ask XPLOZ how he initiated the scheduling and finalized it all well in advance. Do you know what time 6-7 PM EDT was for yang? 6:30 AM, which is basically a time at which yang was willing to duel. No manager was clairvoyant enough to predict the earthquake, but you don't have to be clairvoyant to make sure your player is online at the time scheduled time of his battle. You don't need to be clairvoyant to check what the scheduled time of the battle was and you don't need to be clairvoyant to arrange for a sub incase your player misses the deadline because this is what a manager / captain is supposed to do beforehand, like how Kiz subbed in NightArch when tim didn't meet the deadline for his duel. All of this should have been planned before.

 

What happened to Ari sucks ass, but if you ask your manager / captain as to what could've been done to avoid this mess, something definitely could've been done. 

 

 

I am lost, is this earthquake metaphorical? 

*eats popcorn*

[RysPicz]

14 minutes ago, NikhilR said:

but if you ask your manager / captain as to what could've been done to avoid this mess, something definitely could've been done. 

Unfortunately nothing. Doc had a surgery, I was asleep. What could've been done here?

I dunno but during 5 seasons (6th now) I've been asking players to play their fucking matches. Ari showed intentions of playing, came online after earthquake hoping to play his match asap and... well, he can't play his match because host decided otherwise. At the end, ironically, the host who ensured that he will make sure that matches will get played in the 'hype' thread, makes the match impossible to play. Bias at it's best.

 

This used to be the "best competitive experience" in PokeMMO

 

Notice the past tense ;v)

 

And yeah, I sure am not going to play my match unless Ari gets to play his. If you do not want to allow those 2 to play, you can pretty much withdraw me from PSL- nothing of value will be lost anyway with my shitty 1-2 record. I didn't wanna play this season anyway and did it only for Doc.

 

@DoctorPBC

Sorry fam, I told you at the beggining I fear that something like that will happen...

 

E:

Spoiler

I miss Orange as a host. This was prob the best season I ever played with him as a host

 

Edited October 17, 2016 by RysPicz

[NikhilR]

1 minute ago, RysPicz said:

Unfortunately nothing. Doc had a surgery, I was asleep. What could've been done here?

I dunno but during 5 seasons (6th now) I've been asking players to play their fucking matches. Ari showed intentions of playing, came online after earthquake hoping to play his match asap and... well, he can't play his match because host decided otherwise. At the end, ironically, the host who ensured that he will make sure that matches will get played in the 'hype' thread, makes the match impossible to play. Bias at it's best.

 

This used to be the "best competitive experience" in PokeMMO

 

Notice the past tense ;v)

 

And yeah, I sure am not going to play my match unless Ari gets to play his. If you do not want to allow those 2 to play, you can pretty much withdraw me from PSL- nothing of value will be lost anyway with my shitty 1-2 record. I didn't wanna play this season anyway and did it only for Doc.

 

@DoctorPBC

Sorry fam, I told you at the beggining I fear that something like that will happen...

What you could've done is maybe have someone else in charge to make the decisions while you two were away. Or maybe find a way that someone can get in touch with you in case of such emergencies. Maybe one of your other teammates who were online could've done something about this because Joey had been posting periodically about this. Yes the host wants to make sure that battles are played, it's why he allowed Ari to be subsituted so that a match could take place rather than immediately leading it to an activity decision. The same host also made his intentions clear when dealing with such matters, so again I ask, why wasn't a sub made beforehand? Maybe it's because you did assume Ari to play his match but if you're scheduling your match on the last day, it's always best to have a sub in place and there's no valid reasoning for not doing so. 

[Spaintakula]

Sorry but so relatable

 

[Moetal]

So hey @Spaintakula you're still coming to pay me right?

[Guerinf]

I'd like to back the Cubones on that point as i kind of think the decision made is understandable but quite unfair.

Indeed, it's always easy for external people to find a way how matches could have been done and what could have been done to avoid the situation. When i see people saying that when doc was in surgery and forf another N-1 could have been put in charge i just wonder if people do the same for their team. The answer is obviously no. Sometimes shit happen and you didn't predict it. Hopefully, we are mature and smart enough to understand those problems and take adequate actions to solve them.

Here we have Ari who's a well known and appreciated player. We all know he wanted to play his match but this unfortunate event happened and he is punished for something he isn't responsible for. We can blame him for schedulling only on sunday, but we all know how schedduling works : you often try to be the most accomodative possible even if you need with your opponent to change your program a little. And when something happen, then you're fucked cause you've been a cool guy trying to arrange your opponent.

That's kind of what happened for me vs noad last season, even if it's not comparable at all since i just missed my waking up and wasn't victim of an earthquake. 

[Liberalisme]

This is bullshit and unfair.  How is it Arimanius his fault that there was a earthquake in his town?  You just wanna give free win to ur teammate DoubleJ. 

 

Lf new host

[Spaintakula]

1 hour ago, Moetal said:

So hey @Spaintakula you're still coming to pay me right?

Who r u :(

 

next time I get ingame, I promise ;)

[BlackJovi]

classic JJ vs aura

[DaftCoolio]

3 hours ago, RysPicz said:

At the end, ironically, the host who ensured that he will make sure that matches will get played in the 'hype' thread, makes the match impossible to play. Bias at it's best.

 

He said he would get the matches played by adding in the no extension rule. So to make it clear this is exactly what happens when you don't play your match. Ari doesn't play his match and now you are surprised? It's not biased more like honesty.