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[NU Discussion] Venusaur

PoseidonWrath

By PoseidonWrath
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PoseidonWrath

PoseidonWrath

Posted
Posted (edited)

venu.png

 

What is this?

 

This thread is being opened to discuss Venusaur being added to the NU Tier by usage. Venusaur has fallen below the 4.36% cut-off point. A quick vote was made but didn't gather a unanimous response to ban, and thus we are opening a discussion thread to consider a possible ban to BL2.

 

 

What to know?

 

Venusaur is a strong-offensive option that can potentially sweep the tier and also provide utility depending on its set. Venusaur having it's HA, Chlorophyll makes it an extremely threatening pokemon and has enough support in Sableye, Whimsicott, Rotom, Claydol, Xatu - all capable of setting sun and then switching into Venusaur at an appropriate time. Venusaur then has access to devestate the entire tier with sleep powder and growth enabling it to go to +2 in an instant. It also has the necessary speed, under sun, to clear offensive threats and it also has enough bulk, recovery in synthesis/Giga Drain and great resistances to easily sleep/set-up vs the limited and lackluster specially defensive pokemon in NU, (calcs will follow). Venusaur can't be poisoned so stalling it is not a great option either. Previously when Venusaur was NU we had Specially defensive 'checks' for it in Nidoqueen and Clefable, neither of these are an options anymore. Just to note these are pokemon I've seen mentioned by members of the community as 'potential checks': Xatu, Gigalith, Golbat, Bronzor, Altaria, Gligar, and Mantine. Most of these pokemon are susceptible to sleep powder or being easily swept once Venusaur has set up. With that in mind we believe it's right to bring a suspect test to see if NU can handle a monster like Venusaur.

 

Noteworthy Sets:


Sun Sweeper: Growth, Giga Drain/Solar Beam, Sludge Bomb, Weather Ball/Hidden Power Ice
Sleep Powder: Sleep Powder, Growth, Giga Drain, Weather Ball/SludgeBomb
Manual Setter: Sunny Day, Growth, Giga Drain, Weather Ball
Defensive: Giga Drain, Sludge Bomb, Synthesis, Leech Seed

 

Xatu Calcs:
252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Xatu in Sun: 92-109 (53.4 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Xatu: 83-99 (48.2 - 57.5%) -- 92.2% chance to 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Xatu in Sun: 183-216 (106.3 - 125.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Xatu: 165-195 (95.9 - 113.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Weather Ball (100 BP Rock) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Xatu in Sand: 122-146 (70.9 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage

 

Golbat Calcs:
252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Golbat in Sun: 60-71 (32.9 - 39%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Golbat in Sun: 118-140 (64.8 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Weather Ball (100 BP Rock) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Golbat in Sand: 81-96 (44.5 - 52.7%) -- 77.7% chance to 2HKO after sandstorm damage

 

Gigalith Calcs:
252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gigalith in Sand: 86-104 (44.7 - 54.1%) -- 2.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gigalith in Sand: 133-156 (69.2 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gigalith in Sand: 172-203 (89.5 - 105.7%) -- 25% chance to OHKO


Bronzor Calcs:
252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Bronzor in Sun: 120-143 (73.1 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Bronzor in Sun: 237-281 (144.5 - 171.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

Altaria Calcs:
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Altaria: 234-276 (128.5 - 151.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Altaria: 114-140 (62.6 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (edited)

252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Weather Ball (100 BP Rock) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Altaria in Sand: 96-114 (52.7 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage


Gligar Calcs:
252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Gligar: 104-125 (60.4 - 72.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Gligar: 203-244 (118 - 141.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

Mantine Calcs:
252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mantine: 55-64 (28.6 - 33.3%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mantine: 105-125 (54.6 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mantine: 87-105 (45.3 - 54.6%) -- 53.9% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Weather Ball (100 BP Rock) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mantine in Sand: 78-94 (40.6 - 48.9%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO after sandstorm damage


Munchlax Calcs:
252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Munchlax: 75-90 (30.9 - 37.1%) -- 67.6% chance to 3HKO
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Munchlax: 148-175 (61.1 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Munchlax: 148-175 (61.1 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Piloswine Calcs:
252+ Atk Piloswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Venusaur: 74-90 (47.7 - 58%) -- 87.5% chance to 2HKO

 

Cloyster Calcs:
252+ Atk Choice Band Cloyster Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Venusaur: 108-128 (69.6 - 82.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Give us your input and discuss

 

Spoiler

shout out to @BaliAds for the thread, u the goat

 

Edited by PoseidonWrath
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CaptnBaklava

CaptnBaklava

Posted
Posted

So +2 Venu destroys the whole tier without getting revenged killed. The best way to remove sun will rise up in 4 weeks since Porygon Z is freed at the same time. 

 

It forces Golbat, Mantine and Altaria to run alot of special defense aswell as a +SPD Nature while dropping speed and physical bulk (wich made especially Golbat so good at handling alot of base 80 physical attackers, aswell as beeing able to haze vs BD Azumarill.) wich will make dealing with stuff like Hitmonchan, Moxie Honchcrow, Scrafty, etc way harder. 

 

Not even ultra niche stuff like eviolithe, flash fire,  calm Lampent is able to stop it reliable. 

 

You have to commit alot of resources to stop 1(!) set but if you face a set that brings coverage instead of sleep powder you are doomed. 

Sounds fair and fun ngl. 

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gbwead

gbwead

Posted
Posted (edited)

For the record, Venusaur was never banned from NU, so this can't be a suspect test. On top of that, there is already a suspect test in NU (Venomoth) and you can't have two tests at the same time anyways.

Edit: Imo, the thread should be renamed to [NU Discussion] Venusaur just like Cloyster.

Edited by gbwead
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PoseidonWrath

PoseidonWrath

Posted
  • Author
Posted
1 hour ago, gbwead said:

For the record, Venusaur was never banned from NU, so this can't be a suspect test. On top of that, there is already a suspect test in NU (Venomoth) and you can't have two tests at the same time anyways.

Edit: Imo, the thread should be renamed to [NU Discussion] Venusaur just like Cloyster.

My mistake, the original thread was called [NU Discussion] Venusaur, i must have been confused but thanks for noticing it

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  • PoseidonWrath changed the title to [NU Discussion] Venusaur
  • 2 weeks later...
Imperial

Imperial

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Munya said:

Thoughts on this so far now that we are 2 weeks in?  I have heard it may not have lived up to the hype, still looks decent enough looking at usage though.

Following on from Sargeste's reply, I think it's pretty unfair to thoroughly assess Venusaur at this stage. Currently, the most popular set is the standard one which was being used before the HA got introduced, and you have Gigalith which is pretty common right now meaning that with the instant sand pressure it's a lot more difficult to set up the Chlorophyll set which is what the majority of people were concerned about.

 

I think more people are concerned about Venomoth right now, with Gigalith helping to keep this in check alongside having it's own advantages/problems. If/when Venomoth and Gigalith rise back to UU, you'll likely start to see more versatile Venusaur sets being used as that pressure is no longer there, and then I feel we can assess it properly.

 

TLDR - It's  best not to assess Venusaur until next month when Venomoth/Gigalith will most likely rise to UU.

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BaliAds

BaliAds

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, Munya said:

Thoughts on this so far now that we are 2 weeks in?  I have heard it may not have lived up to the hype, still looks decent enough looking at usage though.

I think the reason we haven't heard much is because the tier right now is dealing with several 'broken' pokemon at the same time. You've got really pressing concerns in both Venomoth and Gigalith which are busted af evidently from their win rates in the tier, Sand teams are great right now and no one can disprove the amount of utility gigalith provides on it's own. Venomoth is the other bigbad which is ruining and making their tier uncompetitive af get a sleep powder off and set up to victory.

Neither of these really stand in the way of saying Venusaur is busted af (because it is) but they just provide so much more pain and tears to the point Venusaur isn't really talked about right now. I think once these two are gone (gigalith and venomoth are looking likely to go based on usage and damn right they should be gone) you'll see the impact of venusaur a lot more. Overall all three of these mons are busted in their own right and should not be in the tier.

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caioxlive13

caioxlive13

Posted
Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Imperial said:

If/when Venomoth and Gigalith rise back to UU, you'll likely start to see more versatile Venusaur sets being used as that pressure is no longer there, and then I feel we can assess it properly.

If the original idea for changing cutoffs take place(No rises till 3rd month, only drops), then this thread should be closed because we won't discuss anything in 2 months and a Half(And honestly this idea for the cutoffs change was not bad. If something is faded to fall, most likely it won't return so it will bring instability on first months but with time it will stop, and also help with Suspect test because some mons that could ruin suspect test if rise(Example: If Gigalith come back to UU it will ruin Venomoth's suspect due to the main counter leave the tier) will be locked during entire season on tier and will stay there so the suspect will not be ruined).
IF, not drop something on UU while the 3 months is passing, that could let the Gigalith viability busted, and make it stay on NU, that will control Venusaur abuse on sun teams.

Edited by caioxlive13
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Imperial

Imperial

Posted
Posted
5 hours ago, caioxlive13 said:

If the original idea for changing cutoffs take place(No rises till 3rd month, only drops), then this thread should be closed because we won't discuss anything in 2 months and a Half(And honestly this idea for the cutoffs change was not bad. If something is faded to fall, most likely it won't return so it will bring instability on first months but with time it will stop, and also help with Suspect test because some mons that could ruin suspect test if rise(Example: If Gigalith come back to UU it will ruin Venomoth's suspect due to the main counter leave the tier) will be locked during entire season on tier and will stay there so the suspect will not be ruined).
IF, not drop something on UU while the 3 months is passing, that could let the Gigalith viability busted, and make it stay on NU, that will control Venusaur abuse on sun teams.

Actually unless I'm mistaken, this is the change which is going to take place starting from this month:

 

1st month

Move Down Cutoff Point: 3.00%

Move Up Cutoff Point: 5.50%%

 

2nd month

Move Down Cutoff Point: 2.50%

Move Up Cutoff Point: 6.00%

 

3rd month

Move Down Cutoff Point: 3.75%

Move Up Cutoff Point: 4.75%

 

So we'll likely see some changes sooner and it got implemented at the right time with new HAs coming out as well.

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caioxlive13

caioxlive13

Posted
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Imperial said:

Actually unless I'm mistaken, this is the change which is going to take place starting from this month:

 

1st month

Move Down Cutoff Point: 3.00%

Move Up Cutoff Point: 5.50%%

 

2nd month

Move Down Cutoff Point: 2.50%

Move Up Cutoff Point: 6.00%

 

3rd month

Move Down Cutoff Point: 3.75%

Move Up Cutoff Point: 4.75%

 

So we'll likely see some changes sooner and it got implemented at the right time with new HAs coming out as well.

I'm talking about one that was shown by @Munya on April/23-Movement thread, when it got re-opened on June. This was the last post of said thread.

Quote

Something that was suggested internally within TC is this in the future:

1st month 1.7 to drop, no rises

2nd month 2.5 to drop no rises

3rd month 5 to drop or rise.

 

Edited by caioxlive13
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  • 5 weeks later...
DoubleJ

DoubleJ

Posted
Posted
On 7/13/2023 at 5:57 PM, caioxlive13 said:

If the original idea for changing cutoffs take place(No rises till 3rd month, only drops), then this thread should be closed because we won't discuss anything in 2 months and a Half(And honestly this idea for the cutoffs change was not bad. If something is faded to fall, most likely it won't return so it will bring instability on first months but with time it will stop, and also help with Suspect test because some mons that could ruin suspect test if rise(Example: If Gigalith come back to UU it will ruin Venomoth's suspect due to the main counter leave the tier) will be locked during entire season on tier and will stay there so the suspect will not be ruined).
IF, not drop something on UU while the 3 months is passing, that could let the Gigalith viability busted, and make it stay on NU, that will control Venusaur abuse on sun teams.

Someone please decipher.

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caioxlive13

caioxlive13

Posted
Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, DoubleJ said:

Looking forward to Venusaur going up to UU in a couple months once Ninetales finds its rightful home by usage. 

If TC doesn't decide to move Ninetales to UU earlier. Ninetales will be UU or NU after their situation was normalized, depend of where torkoal is, because Ninetales will be 1 tier below it. 
Also, UU have problems with Sun in past iirc, but now we have Hippowdon and later we will have Politoed or Pelliper(one of the two rain setupers will drop, depend of which one will be worse, and i bet Politoed will fall.) to contest Sun. However, the Sun juggernaut Venusaur is avaliable on UU. So, it's Sun still controversial on UU? 

On 8/12/2023 at 4:54 PM, Munya said:

Please don't make assumptions until it actually happens, and TC actually responds to it.  The very short time ninetales was NU today was unintentional, it was supposed to automatically be placed in OU.

Will not stay there for long. Ninetales would not be used on upper tiers due to it be good by itself, because it aren't a good mon, but yes due to their ability. On OU we have a better sun setup that are torkoal, so ninetales has no use on OU. For first month maybe Ninetales would not drop by usage since their HA was recently introduced, but as soon as it was allowed to fall it will fall. The same situation will happen too with Politoed due to pelliper be virtually better. Why not do a quick vote like was done with the HAs introduced on October/November, and let the TC decide for which tier the new HAs will go?

Edited by caioxlive13
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  • 4 weeks later...
caioxlive13

caioxlive13

Posted
Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, epicdavenport said:

Thing is likely going to move up due to usage before the TC make a decision on it. Next month it'll probably be out of our hair for as long as Ninetales remains UU.

And you're sure Ninetales will remain UU? Venusaur is stupidly broken on sun, on UU. If Venu is banned, Exxegutor would take their place and be good as him. And who played the Pre-HA era knows how sun with Exxegutor is annoying. Most likely they either ban Chrolophyll from being used on UU, or Ninetales, or Drought Itself. In all cases venu is back to NU.

If Venusaur is not wrecking havoc on UU now, is mainly thanks to Rain and this weather would have to take a nerf too to be acceptable on UU. (Either lose Politoed or Swift Swin. Banning Drizzle is not a option unlike Drought, because Drought has two users and Torkoal, the best between both, can fall to UU. Pelliper is not falling anytime soon. )

Edited by caioxlive13
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