Empoleon Gen 9 DLC Changes

[TohnR]

2 minutes ago, RysPicz said:

I didn't even notice, and both of those changes look just amazing. Both Healing Wish and Baton pass on a  support pokemon are great and Ninetales has enough utility to compete with Torkoal which can set rocks + spin. With Ninetales being able to both dry-pass, pass subs or healing wish a heavily damaged sweeper, it has gained massive utility. I don't think it will skyrocket Ninetales to OU instantly, but that change is really, really big and hopefully it will impact the mon's utility on a large scale.

I don't know if it'll actually be used in OU, but for sure a big and interesting improvement. All the more when our only viable healing wish mon used to be Shaymin 
(Other users include Alomomola, Chansey, Audino, Chimecho, Clef but those won't use HW and Gardevoir/Lilligant/Loppuny which are honestly either not fast enough or not good scarf holders to use it even in NU)

[caioxlive13]

10 hours ago, xMago said:

for gliscor u have +5 mons too
fear to burn with a support knock off? bro....

normaly knock off user is mienshao av in ou or so many mons in low tiers and u do free knock off to so many mons easy, what problem with status in shao for example when u join and left each time with regen? why fear to scald if u only need delete leftovers to suicune?

and i not received any answered for lc games.

 

knock off is god, nothing more to say

But still prove my point when you see the mons using. Mienshao AV and few sets actually use it. Don't believe me? Watch the example: A Tytar would not drop Crunch, Pursuit or a coverage for knock off when it's gen 4 knock off, however if was Gen 6 knock off he would drop it since it's the best move he has avaliable. Same principle would follow for Weavile, Krokodile and Scrafty. Most mons that use Knock off on gen 6+ and are avaliable for us, care about dmg and that's why they not use it now.

Edited September 20, 2023 by caioxlive13

[xMago]

when players not understand the difference of support and offense:

[razimove]

Whole thread derailed due to people paying to much attention to idiots.

 

Either way, I think the main thing that empo got for me is that haze, making his defensive movepool even stronger. And idk if torterra gets anything from shell smash, but we'll see, good old bronzor still exists in NU, although he does get another potential cover move for bat (which he already had through rock blast/stone edge)

[TohnR]

7 hours ago, caioxlive13 said:

But still prove my point when you see the mons using. Mienshao AV and few sets actually use it. Don't believe me? Watch the example: A Tytar would not drop Crunch, Pursuit or a coverage for knock off when it's gen 4 knock off, however if was Gen 6 knock off he would drop it since it's the best move he has avaliable. Same principle would follow for Weavile, Krokodile and Scrafty. Most mons that use Knock off on gen 6+ and are avaliable for us, care about dmg and that's why they not use it now.

You know TTar can run a support set with Stealth Rocks, Thunder Wave, Knock off and any of the many more options it has.
Wasn't saying that it will outshine the standard sets but it is more relevant than Arbok getting Tspikes that will never ever be used in any of the official tiers

 

 

54 minutes ago, razimove said:

Either way, I think the main thing that empo got for me is that haze, making his defensive movepool even stronger. And idk if torterra gets anything from shell smash, but we'll see, good old bronzor still exists in NU, although he does get another potential cover move for bat (which he already had through rock blast/stone edge)

I mean sure Haze is an option but Empoleon already had Roar. I would only see Haze being relevant in hard stalls
I agree about your point on Torterra, I doubt it suddenly becomes OP, but at least it'll be a viable cleaner in NU now 😄 

Zen Headbut will not be used over rock move but hey it exists at least ...

Edited September 20, 2023 by TohnR

[caioxlive13]

1 hour ago, razimove said:

Whole thread derailed due to people paying to much attention to idiots.

 

Either way, I think the main thing that empo got for me is that haze, making his defensive movepool even stronger. And idk if torterra gets anything from shell smash, but we'll see, good old bronzor still exists in NU, although he does get another potential cover move for bat (which he already had through rock blast/stone edge)

Torterra does not have rock blast for now. It will gain the move along with Shell Smash when devs update the learnsets.

[Gilgalapagos]

Not sure why people are going hard on this guy, his take on knock off is pretty accurate. There is a reason why in all the older gens knock off still barely sees use. It went from 0 usage to being played everywhere because it became the FOTM when people realized that removing an item can be strong to going down substantially in usage once again and is only really used on a small handful of pokemon outside of the modern games.

 

The power level of items is for one a lot lower compared to current gens with one of the most broken items HDB not existing. AV is a pretty good hit as well but isn't that common amongst the highest usage mons, and the prevalence of Gliscor also makes it a bit harder to get worthwhile value from it.

 

This isn't to say knocking off other items isn't good, by no means is the move bad but its also not really comparable to its modern iteration. Pokemon fulfilling an offensive role will never run it, so it's pretty exclusively for defensive/supportive mons at the price of other potentially very valuable things. Yea knocking off leftovers is pretty cool, but so is just hitting them with toxic or burn. The distribution of it is nice for pokemon who already had limited options, but I can't imagine anything that got it recently suddenly becoming a lot more viable due to it when you consider how many good options the good pokemon have as is.

[caioxlive13]

On 9/17/2023 at 7:32 PM, RenDude said:

No one talking about shell smash torterra lmao

because when it will be useful? He is too weak to OU, UU has 357 levitates and everything resist grass, so he can't use both stabs(not literally but yea, most part of top mons resist torterra's both stabs), NU has Blaziken, Vaniluxe and other top threats to vaporize Torterra before it does something, and for non-official meta of Untiered he is already a target for ban.

Edited September 20, 2023 by caioxlive13

[Queza]

While i know this is for singles format, Shiftry's ability replacement to wind rider could also be interesting for this metagame with DBs. 

[caioxlive13]

8 hours ago, Queza said:

While i know this is for singles format, Shiftry's ability replacement to wind rider could also be interesting for this metagame with DBs. 

What wind rider does?

[TohnR]

14 hours ago, Gilgalapagos said:

Pokemon fulfilling an offensive role will never run it

Had a good laugh, it's a supportive move, of course it's to be used on support mons ...

In just the path 6 months meta I've been using Koff in under used on Machamp, Tentacruel, Venusaur, Toxicroak, Sableye and Gligar. You're mostly looking to remove Dusclops and Gligar's eviolite as well as Bronzong/Rotoms lefties so they can no longer sustain. That move can be key to breaking some common UU & NU defensive archetypes (Rest eviolite mons + Wish cleric).
I know a few mons like Mienshao might use it in OU on supporting sets with taunt or toxic, it's not as bad as you think it is. Besides our metagame isn't Showdown's

Edited September 21, 2023 by TohnR

[Gilgalapagos]

3 hours ago, TohnR said:

Had a good laugh, it's a supportive move, of course it's to be used on support mons ...

 

Yes, I literally established this in the same sentence that you half quoted out of context.

 

I was speaking on behalf of OU at the time of my post, I should have clarified that but I figured it would be assumed considering what was actually contained in my post particularly would point towards OU rather than a lower tier, as did the person who even caused this disagreement in the first time. Of course in lower tiers where overall power level is much lower you will get more mileage from knock off, this goes exactly with the point I made. Just like HDB, if entire teams are held together by items like eviolite that literally turn a pokemon into an NFE, same idea with HDB making entire structures fall apart to rocks when knocked off, then yes knock off gets way more value and will be used more.

 

As for OU mons, mienshao was already covered as one of its users. I never said no one uses it, defensive Mienshao makes perfect sense as a user given what I said before, it lacks utility because it was designed to be offensive, so you don't have many choices when playing it that way and knock off is probably the most utility option it has.

 

But that's a single pokemon. You will struggle to find many options in OU where knock off is actually worth using at the moment over other things they have or over other pokemon that are just better. And I never said our metagame was showdowns, the entire reason I even mentioned past metagames is because some people made references to how strong knock off is in smogon metagames which is not really relevant because as you said, it isn't the same here, and the metagames that are the most similar to a smogon metagame it still isn't seen in. 

 

That being said, I do agree the move can definitely be strong in UU/NU .

 

Edited September 21, 2023 by Gilgalapagos

[caioxlive13]

On 9/21/2023 at 10:38 AM, TohnR said:

Had a good laugh, it's a supportive move, of course it's to be used on support mons ...

Exactly what i've sayed, support mons doesn't care to direct dmg, so they would use it but mons that care, mainly offensives wouldn't.
Of course on lower tiers he would be more valuable due to Eviolite removal, but for OU it's not for majority of mons that has acces to it.

 

 

On 9/21/2023 at 1:37 PM, Gilgalapagos said:

Yes, I literally established this in the same sentence that you half quoted out of context.

Chill, they do this alot.
 

 

On 9/21/2023 at 1:37 PM, Gilgalapagos said:

I was speaking on behalf of OU at the time of my post, I should have clarified that but I figured it would be assumed considering what was actually contained in my post particularly would point towards OU rather than a lower tier, as did the person who even caused this disagreement in the first time. Of course in lower tiers where overall power level is much lower you will get more mileage from knock off, this goes exactly with the point I made. Just like HDB, if entire teams are held together by items like eviolite that literally turn a pokemon into an NFE, same idea with HDB making entire structures fall apart to rocks when knocked off, then yes knock off gets way more value and will be used more.

 

As for OU mons, mienshao was already covered as one of its users. I never said no one uses it, defensive Mienshao makes perfect sense as a user given what I said before, it lacks utility because it was designed to be offensive, so you don't have many choices when playing it that way and knock off is probably the most utility option it has.

 

The main users fo OU are purely support/defensive. Mienshao AV is the only mon offensive that really consider the item as a option. Mentioning a example, Ferrothorn is a common user of Knock off but their main role on OU is to be a support to set hazards. A weavile uses mainly Night Slash over Knock off, but is because he is offensive and need to give as much dmg as possible.

Even for Untiered's non official meta, Knock off still follow this principle as related to their use, on the tours that had this format. Sandslash there can use knock off, but he is more a lead and hazard Setter/removal. Their goal is to bring hazard up and ensure you don't set up yours, not give massive amount of dmg, and even with that he usually drops off the move for Rock Slide.

Removing item is great, but the low dmg makes it questionable if was worth using it over other utilitys on any mon, such as Toxic/Taunt/Twave/Trick ...


======================

To DoubleJ's comment below:

Edited September 24, 2023 by caioxlive13

[DoubleJ]

For a guide on "How to defend your bad take 101" please reference above. 

 

In a nutshell, I'm excited for an updated Empoleon (especially in dubs). 

 

@Munya you may now close this thread. Ty.

[caioxlive13]

43 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

In a nutshell, I'm excited for an updated Empoleon (especially in dubs). 

Good luck using it. Empoleon has the right speed to be bad at everything. He is too fast for Trick Room, and too slow for Tailwind.

[DoubleJ]

1 hour ago, caioxlive13 said:

Good luck using it. Empoleon has the right speed to be bad at everything. He is too fast for Trick Room, and too slow for Tailwind.

Oh true, nvm fam. It's going to be bad at everything. 

[Bertolfoso]

Really excited for the empoleon mirrors to be more than just scald spam, Competitive is gonna force some progress

[caioxlive13]

6 minutes ago, Bertolfoso said:

Really excited for the empoleon mirrors to be more than just scald spam, Competitive is gonna force some progress

singles it will remain scald spam. Most intimidate users switched for Moxie when they can. On OU(Gyarados) and UU(Mence, Krokoodile...)

Edited September 24, 2023 by caioxlive13

[DoubleJ]

2 hours ago, caioxlive13 said:

singles it will remain scald spam. Most intimidate users switched for Moxie when they can. On OU(Gyarados) and UU(Mence, Krokoodile...)

You don't watch much OU do ya

[LeJovi]

Mence isn't even UU bro..