UU Viability Thread

[Arimanius]

Houndoom.

 

Exactly this, I thought about how grumpig could be useful in uu with hp fire but the rise of houndoom usage makes it useless since grumpig only can do neutral dmg with signal beam and it needs +5 to ohko with signal so.. Maybe going for trapping with a digglet idk, but houndoom hurts grumpig a lot

[Arimanius]

I would like to give lanturn the A, it's so versatile right now with so many manectrics around, it can work as a sweeper or cleric with heal bell and can put a lot of pressure to pokemons like exeggutor, vileplume, slowking, omastar, and almost any water type except maybe quagsire and another lanturn (unless hp grass)

[RysPicz]

I've seen and played some UU battles lately and came to few conclusions.

 

1. Offense and hyper offense are totally unviable in the tier. UU is filled with powerful walls with instant recovery or 1-turn Rest (Clef, Exegg, Slowking, Kanga, Vileplume, Scizor) and they bulk/ typing allows them to effectively wall the whole tier. Problem is, it's not one poke that blocks the playstyle, it's the whole bunch of pokemons.

2. Houndoom is more problematic than I could even imagine. I talked so many times with players about their teams and they were like "no I can't run this and this because Houndoom". I saw teams being built in a way to avoid being trapped by Houndoom. It's not on the top of the usage but I see it as a very problematic poke that has an insane influence on the tier and limits the teambuilding a lot, making pokes like Xatu, Grumpig, Hypno and few others that atm I can't think of, unviable, while I think they would get some decent usage.

3. Lack of power. We lack fast, strong, hard-hitting offensive powerhouses with a good STAB and stat distribution or movepool. Kingler is strong as fuck but gets walled by omnipresent Plume, Slowking or Exegg. Granbull is also strong af but it's very slow and gets outspeeded by a lot of pokes and only viable set is CB. WEELEE gets walled again totally by Slowking or Plume or Exegg (latter 2 get 2shoted by Blaze Kick but w/e). Don't tell me about Zangoose or Pikachu please.

 

A while ago Robo suggested bringing down some BL pokes to check out how they would do. Only 3 I'd see as worth testing are Medicham, Dodrio and Sceptile. I'm on the fence with the first 2 but pretty sure that with Plume and Exegg in the tier, Sceptile would be manageable. Dodrio might seem scary, so does Medicham, but something has to be done because this tier is just absolute shit compared to what we used to have back in 2014 when most of players left OU to play UU.

[BurntZebra]

I've seen and played some UU battles lately and came to few conclusions.

 

1. Offense and hyper offense are totally unviable in the tier. UU is filled with powerful walls with instant recovery or 1-turn Rest (Clef, Exegg, Slowking, Kanga, Vileplume, Scizor) and they bulk/ typing allows them to effectively wall the whole tier. Problem is, it's not one poke that blocks the playstyle, it's the whole bunch of pokemons.

2. Houndoom is more problematic than I could even imagine. I talked so many times with players about their teams and they were like "no I can't run this and this because Houndoom". I saw teams being built in a way to avoid being trapped by Houndoom. It's not on the top of the usage but I see it as a very problematic poke that has an insane influence on the tier and limits the teambuilding a lot, making pokes like Xatu, Grumpig, Hypno and few others that atm I can't think of, unviable, while I think they would get some decent usage.

3. Lack of power. We lack fast, strong, hard-hitting offensive powerhouses with a good STAB and stat distribution or movepool. Kingler is strong as fuck but gets walled by omnipresent Plume, Slowking or Exegg. Granbull is also strong af but it's very slow and gets outspeeded by a lot of pokes and only viable set is CB. WEELEE gets walled again totally by Slowking or Plume or Exegg (latter 2 get 2shoted by Blaze Kick but w/e). Don't tell me about Zangoose or Pikachu please.

 

A while ago Robo suggested bringing down some BL pokes to check out how they would do. Only 3 I'd see as worth testing are Medicham, Dodrio and Sceptile. I'm on the fence with the first 2 but pretty sure that with Plume and Exegg in the tier, Sceptile would be manageable. Dodrio might seem scary, so does Medicham, but something has to be done because this tier is just absolute shit compared to what we used to have back in 2014 when most of players left OU to play UU.

Offense is definitely viable within the tier, although people just don't really know what to use. For example, in my match, my guy ran sunny day houndoom+exeggutor+absol, all of which can easily cripple any of the defensive cores. Houndoom can single handedly take out any special wall with sunny day/overheat/solar beam/flamethrower, along with a charcoal. Exeggutor ohkos a ton of the meta in the sun and outspeeds everything as well. Absol beats the slowking/vileplume/clefable core on its own as well, but houndoom definitely likes the removal of slowking via absols powerful cb stab pursuit. 

 

Physical offense is quite viable as well, with many people lacking a reliable counter to multiple normal types. Most people rely on scizor to take on a swellow, but what happens when a person runs swellow and fearow on the same team? Or if someone runs a zangoose to soften up possible steelix/omastars.

 

Why don't you want to hear about zangoose? Is it because it renders your argument invalid? This is just like the chansey debate in OU. "Special attackers can't beat chansey." "Well here are 5 special attackers that beat chansey" "WELL THAT DOESN'T COUNT OK? THAT WAS A FLUKE"

 

Houndoom seems kind of problematic, but to be honest, pokemon like xatu and misdreavus still aren't that amazing even without houndoom. Misdreavus has issues with kangaskhan/clefable (even though clefable can't do anything, +6 misdreavus still can't even kill clefable)/steelix/scizor and has 4mss, either forgoing coverage on scizor to hit crawdaunt/tentacruel or vice versa. 

[RysPicz]

Offense is definitely viable within the tier, although people just don't really know what to use.

Do you? Have you tried playing offense in UU? I doubt you did. I did multiple times and it's just not effective.

 

For example, in my match, my guy ran sunny day houndoom+exeggutor+absol, all of which can easily cripple any of the defensive cores. Houndoom can single handedly take out any special wall with sunny day/overheat/solar beam/flamethrower, along with a charcoal. Exeggutor ohkos a ton of the meta in the sun and outspeeds everything as well. Absol beats the slowking/vileplume/clefable core on its own as well, but houndoom definitely likes the removal of slowking via absols powerful cb stab pursuit.

Because you are a wall player who got scouted and your opponet brought stuff to spank your team? Sunny day sets are unviable once more because of houndoom that blocks sunnybeam combo. A meta where I send out Houndoom to block my enemy Houndoom ain't what we were dreaming of. All 3 pokes you mentioned are getting under my point 2. where Houndoom limits the teambuilding a lot with exception of Absol

0 SpA Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 4 SpD Absol: 109-129 (77.3 - 91.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Although Absol itself is paper and cannot even swich in.

 

Physical offense is quite viable as well, with many people lacking a reliable counter to multiple normal types. Most people rely on scizor to take on a swellow, but what happens when a person runs swellow and fearow on the same team? Or if someone runs a zangoose to soften up possible steelix/omastars.

 

Zangoose is actually stronger than I thought but only set I see as dangerous is SD Silk Scarf. Zangoose is paper though but it might work as a wallbreaker. Also most people run Omastar to block Swellow, AND Scizor to pursuit trap and kill it.

 

Why don't you want to hear about zangoose? Is it because it renders your argument invalid? This is just like the chansey debate in OU. "Special attackers can't beat chansey." "Well here are 5 special attackers that beat chansey" "WELL THAT DOESN'T COUNT OK? THAT WAS A FLUKE"

I didn't want to hear abut zangoose cuz I underestimated it. And Chansey debate in OU is different but I'm tired of arguing about it since you seem dense and blunt for our arguments about it. No special attacker beat chansey and some of us already told you that and proved multiple times but I guess you will defend stall and wall pokes from OU even in UU viability thread.

 

Houndoom seems kind of problematic, but to be honest, pokemon like xatu and misdreavus still aren't that amazing even without houndoom. Misdreavus has issues with kangaskhan/clefable (even though clefable can't do anything, +6 misdreavus still can't even kill clefable)/steelix/scizor and has 4mss, either forgoing coverage on scizor to hit crawdaunt/tentacruel or vice versa. 

Girafarig, Xatu, MisD, Hypno, Grumpig. Practically every psychic type that otherwise would be viable in UU, gets blocked from using because of Houndoom, killing tier's diversity. Also wtf, how +6 MisD can't kill Clefable if even +4 can do it?

+6 0 SpA Misdreavus Hidden Power Fighting vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 142-168 (70.2 - 83.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+5 0 SpA Misdreavus Hidden Power Fighting vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 124-148 (61.3 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+4 0 SpA Misdreavus Hidden Power Fighting vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 108-128 (53.4 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Even +4 does it. And HP Fighting on it is absolutely awesome (perfect coverage ftw).

[BurntZebra]

 

Do you? Have you tried playing offense in UU? I doubt you did. I did multiple times and it's just not effective.

 

I have several times. Its actually a lot more effective than stall in most cases. When someone actually builds a good UU offensive team, it actually works quite well because it just destroys anyone who runs the typical vileplume stall team. Usually people just bitch about UU offense because they decide to not run anything for swellow or manectric and then cry when they get swept by it every tournament. 

 

Because you are a wall player who got scouted and your opponet brought stuff to spank your team? Sunny day sets are unviable once more because of houndoom that blocks sunnybeam combo. A meta where I send out Houndoom to block my enemy Houndoom ain't what we were dreaming of. All 3 pokes you mentioned are getting under my point 2. where Houndoom limits the teambuilding a lot with exception of Absol

0 SpA Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 4 SpD Absol: 109-129 (77.3 - 91.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Although Absol itself is paper and cannot even swich in.

I wouldn't say my team got spanked, although getting crit 4 times and having my crawdaunt get para'ed was a bit unfortunate. I would also go out to say it was more of a balanced team, although no one really knows what that actually is because everyone calls a team just offense or stall. I'm not really going to try and defend houndoom that much, although I'd like to see how much it actually is used. When Nikhil first brought up the idea of banning houndoom, it was a good idea in theory, but then I checked the usage stats and houndoom was at like 10%. This kind of made the idea of banning it just all theoretical since you can usually gamble to run something that is checked by houndoom if its only being run 10% of the time. Obviously houndoom usage might change but we'll have to see. 

 

Zangoose is actually stronger than I thought but only set I see as dangerous is SD Silk Scarf. Zangoose is paper though but it might work as a wallbreaker. Also most people run Omastar to block Swellow, AND Scizor to pursuit trap and kill it.

 

I didn't want to hear abut zangoose cuz I underestimated it. And Chansey debate in OU is different but I'm tired of arguing about it since you seem dense and blunt for our arguments about it. No special attacker beat chansey and some of us already told you that and proved multiple times but I guess you will defend stall and wall pokes from OU even in UU viability thread.

I would go out to say that no one has actually given a valid reason about chansey being banned and I continue to give situations where special attackers beat chansey and then people just assume chansey has 2 electric immunity partners+something to take on espeon and has the ability to know 8 moves to stop everything ever. But w/e

 

Girafarig, Xatu, MisD, Hypno, Grumpig. Practically every psychic type that otherwise would be viable in UU, gets blocked from using because of Houndoom, killing tier's diversity. Also wtf, how +6 MisD can't kill Clefable if even +4 can do it?

 

Sure houndoom stops those pokemon that you listed, but so does a ton of other stuff in the meta. All of them die to absol pretty easily (xatu might be able to signal beam and kill at +1). Kangaskhan beats all of them. Clefable can mess them up with toxic or encore. Crawdaunt beats them while they're resting or if they're slower than 117 speed. Calm mind slowking can win the calm mind war vs a lot of them, so the theory that calm mind psychic types being able to beat stall teams isn't that valid. Scizor destroys any of them that run hidden power fighting. 

+6 0 SpA Misdreavus Hidden Power Fighting vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 142-168 (70.2 - 83.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+5 0 SpA Misdreavus Hidden Power Fighting vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 124-148 (61.3 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+4 0 SpA Misdreavus Hidden Power Fighting vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 108-128 (53.4 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Even +4 does it. And HP Fighting on it is absolutely awesome (perfect coverage ftw).

Hm maybe I was thinking about +6 misdreavus not being able to take on chansey even with hp fighting, or just shadow ball hp fire coverage misdreavus. Shadow ball/hp fighting misdreavus needs to watch out for scizor and swellow.

I just don't really see the logic in banning houndoom, a pokemon that stall teams often have difficulty with facing, and scizor, a pokemon that can take down important components of a defensive team through cb pursuit or quick attack, just to make certain calm minders more viable. If a calm minder becomes too powerful/centralizing, then it could potentially be banned, or stall teams can just run a specific counter to certain calm minders, and obviously stall teams can run the newly powerful calm minders as well. 

[DoubleJ]

#rhydon

[Robofiend]

I agree that banning houndoom doesn't really solve anything. Psychics like grumpig/xatu can't effectively beat special walls like clefable and kangaskhan without bulky sets but they need firepower and speed to prevent getting run over by absol or Scizor. I partly wanted to see zam come back to the tier because with hp fight or fire it can either break walls, beat doom or beat scizor, but not all three - while also being checked by swellow. In any event my best point here is that doom isn't even super highly used and that if we remove it, other dark types like absol or steel types like scizor can still abuse psychics without the right coverage moves or cm boosts.

I feel like it's also not proper to ban scizor+slowking or other pokes with instant recovery or make a lot of bans just because we don't like the looks of the tier right now. Banning all or most of the highly used pokes would reshape the entire tier and seems likely a complicated fix that may just backfire and give us another shittier Meta.

Anyway so yeah, that's my reasoning for suggesting unbans instead of picking random things that we don't like and throwing them out.

[RysPicz]

I like your reasoning and argumentation Robo, but there is one thing you prob have to agree. Something has to be done. UU is completly broken, even more than OU with Chansey in it.

[Robofiend]

Yeah I very much agree. My ideas so far are banning vileplume or bringing down BL Pokemon.

Vileplume could largely be replaced by bellosom, who actually has more defensive stats but lacks the fighting resistance, making it less reliable against sweepers like breloom or crawdaunt. Nonetheless it resists their stabs and lives their coverage just as comfortably. It's also worth mentioning that bellosom is less effective against things like ampharos that rely on bug type special coverage than plume.

Bringing down dodrio or medicham might work but there are pretty strong arguments for keeping them in BL. Nonetheless, adding offense could definitely help to tip the scales.

[Viking]

Ok so i'll try to explain what's going on in my mind ^^

 

 

imo a player is using a wall to stop the possibilities of the opponent to sweep.

So when you team build, you chose your walls depending the most probable sweepers you'll see.

Adding a stong sweeper like rhydon or Zam will make the tier more aggressive certainly, but in a second time players will team build according those new sweepers will be pretty much used and they will take care to play even stronger walls in their teams.

 

That i want to explain is if your actual team build is lets say  2walls / 2sweepers and 2 bulky attackers, if you move down rhydon + Zam (that are pretty OP (uber?) sweepers) most of people will reduce their offensive pokemon and use only 1 of them or even both and ofc take some walls to prevent Zam & Rhydon sweeps ( 4 walls / 1 OP sweeper / 1 sweeper or a bulky attacker)

 

I don't know if you team build like that but that's my way to build, i try to see what are the most common sweepers and i adapt my walls, i'm doing exactly the same reasonning with my sweepers, for example i'll not take a pokemon that is completly walled by vileplume or slowking because i know they are in 95%  of the teams.

[DrCraig]

Eh shit can a staff member take this over or a council member ;-;
I don't want to see her go but it's time

I don't know if I'll be coming back, or atleast anytime soon
o7 love you all

Shut up Craig.

I'll renovate this soon. 

:)

[DrCraig]

Dusclops has been removed from the list because it is OU.

 

My knowledge of the current meta is fairly limited, but I can't help touching the lower ranks because they never are discussed.

Here are the recent changes to the UU Viability Thread:

 

Blastoise........B+ to B

Jynx...............B+ to B

Magcargo......D to C

Glalie.............C to B

Grumpig........C to B

Misdreavus....C to B

(Super sick nasty changes, I know)

 

[hr]

 

Back to business.

I've read over the last couple posts and don't see much past the general meta discussions. No solid stuff ya know? So let's go. What don't you agree with in the ranking? What do you want moved? Why? WHY?

 

Suggested Questions to Address

These questions will assist me in fine tuning the UU Viability ranks

• Kangaskhan: Promotion from A+ to S?
• Vileplume: Promotion from A+ to S?
• Manectric: Promotion from A to A+?
• Hitmonlee: Demotion from  A to B+?

 

Suggested General Discussion

These questions will assist the tier council in gathering community input

• Is Kangaskhan a problem in the UU tier? Why or why not?
• Is Scizor a problem in the UU tier? Why or why not?
• Is Houndoom a problem in the UU tier? Why or why not?

 

Any constructive input is appreciated. Do not feel restricted to the above topics. Dis-freakin-scuss.

God this looks like I'm giving homework

Edited November 26, 2015 by DrCraig

[Robofiend]

Dusclops has been removed from the list because it is OU.

 

My knowledge of the current meta is fairly limited, but I can't help touching the lower ranks because they never are discussed.

Here are the recent changes to the UU Viability Thread:

 

Blastoise........B+ to B

Jynx...............B+ to B

Magcargo......D to C

Glalie.............C to B

Grumpig........C to B

Misdreavus....C to B

(Super sick nasty changes, I know)

 

[hr]

 

Back to business.

I've read over the last couple posts and don't see much past the general meta discussions. No solid stuff ya know? So let's go. What don't you agree with in the ranking? What do you want moved? Why? WHY?

 

Suggested Questions to Address

These questions will assist me in fine tuning the UU Viability ranks

• Kangaskhan: Promotion from A+ to S?
• Vileplume: Promotion from A+ to S?
• Manectric: Promotion from A to A+?
• Hitmonlee: Demotion from  A to B+?

 

Suggested General Discussion

These questions will assist the tier council in gathering community input

• Is Kangaskhan a problem in the UU tier? Why or why not?
• Is Scizor a problem in the UU tier? Why or why not?
• Is Houndoom a problem in the UU tier? Why or why not?

 

Any constructive input is appreciated. Do not feel restricted to the above topics. Dis-freakin-scuss.

God this looks like I'm giving homework

 

 

Vileplume should definitely get S rank - despite only having one common set it's a complete beast on defense. Resistance against Water and Fighting attacks gives it a great niche, especially because it can sponge tons of weaker coverage moves like Ice Punch, Thunder Punch, Rock Slide, Earthquake and Crunch (from Crawdaunt) with little fear. Plume is an awesome catch-all supporter that stops almost every top tier physical attacker except CB Donphan, whose EQ does a good chunk to it.

 

 

Kangaskhan should stay A+ - while it's undeniably the best special wall in UU it can't provide a lot of offense while also walling top-tier special attackers. Wish is great, but without a status-healing move Kanga can't be a full cleric. With Rest it can guarantee defense against a ton of theats while abusing Early Bird, but this is arguably as good as running the Cleric Clefable set. The main reason Kangaskhan shines is that it can break any physical attacker without fear, given its Normal typing and function as a special/status sponge without giving up Scizor coverage, while still keeping its STAB. Despite this, it's not quite S-Rank, in particular because Rest gives the opponent some free turns and it often allows to Omastar, Misdreavus, and even Scizor (assuming it's Resting).

 

Not sure about Manectric

 

Hitmonlee deserves a demotion to B+ - I'd normally say it's A-, but regardless this pokemon finds itself in a weird situation. It has fine special bulk, a good physical movepool and it nukes a ton of threats with its coverage moves (including the awesome Blaze Kick). However, Slowking alone hurts its viability, as does Vileplume. Even if it predicts well against both of these, it can't score a 2HKO, allowing most players to wall it unless it blasts Plume with a Blaze Kick or Slowking with a crit Return/Theif. Given how wally the tier is, running relatively flimsy attackers like Hitmonlee can only be a burden.

 

------

 

Regarding Problems in UU:

 

Kanga: no

Scizor: maybe

Houndoom: no

Slowking: maybe

Vileplume: yes

 

Tl;dr Plume needs to go, imo

[BurntZebra]

 

Vileplume should definitely get S rank - despite only having one common set it's a complete beast on defense. Resistance against Water and Fighting attacks gives it a great niche, especially because it can sponge tons of weaker coverage moves like Ice Punch, Thunder Punch, Rock Slide, Earthquake and Crunch (from Crawdaunt) with little fear. Plume is an awesome catch-all supporter that stops almost every top tier physical attacker except CB Donphan, whose EQ does a good chunk to it.

 

 

Kangaskhan should stay A+ - while it's undeniably the best special wall in UU it can't provide a lot of offense while also walling top-tier special attackers. Wish is great, but without a status-healing move Kanga can't be a full cleric. With Rest it can guarantee defense against a ton of theats while abusing Early Bird, but this is arguably as good as running the Cleric Clefable set. The main reason Kangaskhan shines is that it can break any physical attacker without fear, given its Normal typing and function as a special/status sponge without giving up Scizor coverage, while still keeping its STAB. Despite this, it's not quite S-Rank, in particular because Rest gives the opponent some free turns and it often allows to Omastar, Misdreavus, and even Scizor (assuming it's Resting).

 

Not sure about Manectric

 

Hitmonlee deserves a demotion to B+ - I'd normally say it's A-, but regardless this pokemon finds itself in a weird situation. It has fine special bulk, a good physical movepool and it nukes a ton of threats with its coverage moves (including the awesome Blaze Kick). However, Slowking alone hurts its viability, as does Vileplume. Even if it predicts well against both of these, it can't score a 2HKO, allowing most players to wall it unless it blasts Plume with a Blaze Kick or Slowking with a crit Return/Theif. Given how wally the tier is, running relatively flimsy attackers like Hitmonlee can only be a burden.

 

------

 

Regarding Problems in UU:

 

Kanga: no

Scizor: maybe

Houndoom: no

Slowking: maybe

Vileplume: yes

 

Tl;dr Plume needs to go, imo

 

I disagree. Vileplume is probably still A+ and not S due to its 4mss and how many things just set up on it. You're also overestimating vileplumes bulk. Sure it has enough bulk to take stab waterfalls but it can't switch in vs any choice band earthquake, loses to basically any stab normal pokemon, azumarill. It can barely come in vs choice band crawdaunt crunch, which has about a 30% to just straight up beat vileplume. It loses to blackglasses swords dance crawdaunt who is pretty nice at just destroying vileplume, doing over 80% to vileplume. Vileplume is an easy switch in for haunter, muk, calm minders, kangaskhan, etc. It also usually finds itself dropping aromatherapy for hp fire to actually hit scizor instead of being eternally walled by it. Vileplume also loses to swords dance scizor unfortunately as it fails to ohko with hidden power fire while scizor can easily 2hko vileplume at +2 attack. PP is also a large issue for vileplume as if it comes in vs neutral attacks like cb scizor return, cb hitmonlee return/earthquake, and others, its synthesis pp will rapidly deplete. It also lacks notable offense against hitmonlee. Altaria is also another issue for vileplume and many other pokemon commonly run in UU. Vileplume has basically no offense vs altaria and altaria is able to set up multiple dragon dances before it has to rest and then sweep. Even pokemon that vileplume supposedly counters, like quagsire, do a lot of damage to vileplume with ice beam, forcing it to recover as soon as it gets in or else it won't be able to handle the previously mentioned pokemon.

 

I just don't see vileplume as that great of a pokemon any more to be honest, as everyone prepares a ton of stuff to take advantage of it and other common walls like slowking. Also the existence of slowking decreases the usage of fighting type move users, eliminating the actual need for vileplume on a team. 

[raaidn]

It loses to blackglasses swords dance crawdaunt who is pretty nice at just destroying vileplume, doing over 80% to vileplume. 

Wait wut, I might be missing something here, but last time I checked Giga drain 1hko Crawdaunt. And 80%<1hko

I suppose you could run some weird variant with enough investment to live a giga drain, which sounds pretty aweful.

[NikhilR]

+2 252+ Atk BlackGlasses Crawdaunt Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vileplume: 136-162 (74.7 - 89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

0 SpA Vileplume Giga Drain vs. 6 HP / 0 SpD Crawdaunt: 110-132 (79.1 - 94.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

[raaidn]

Nik u pleb, make it 75 BP plz  :lol:

 

0 SpA Vileplume Giga Drain vs. 6 HP / 0 SpD Crawdaunt: 134-162 (96.4 - 116.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

Edited November 26, 2015 by raaidn

[Frag]

Vile is centralized but, that's because of crawdaunt, there aren't many things that can switch into +1 dd. well, banded craw is way better atm, that's just because people run vileplume making dd variant ineffective. personally one of the main reasons i run vile is just to scout crawd moves.

so, the problem is not vile, but crawd which make the muchroom a needed slot in ur team.

[BurntZebra]

Scizor does a decent job of pivoting in on crawdaunt still.

252+ Atk Choice Band Crawdaunt Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Scizor: 76-91 (42.9 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

[Frag]

Scizor does a decent job of pivoting in on crawdaunt still.

252+ Atk Choice Band Crawdaunt Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Scizor: 76-91 (42.9 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

yea, lets start with the gimmicks, also we know crawd got a better water move, get serious kid

[BurntZebra]

yea, lets start with the gimmicks, also we know crawd got a better water move, get serious kid

Do people actually run crab hammer? It missed for me the one time I had to use it then i replaced it. Max def scizor can still pursuit trap swellow and has instant recovery. It can spread toxic to slowking and exeggutor. I don't think it's that much of a gimmick, although it needs to be paired with something to take fire moves like slowking.

[NikhilR]

Waterfall is nearly a 2hko and has possibility to flinch also. Crabhammer with crit rate is even scarier except for the miss part. Impish Breloom sounds like a decent option with the way we're going with this discussion Zebra. And the last time someone recommended to run impish breloom to counter something, it lead to a ban (Rhydon). Vileplume is so far one of the best counters to Crawdaunt to scout its set. It is in no way a problem or a reason as to why are meta is so shit.

[BurntZebra]

Waterfall is nearly a 2hko and has possibility to flinch also. Crabhammer with crit rate is even scarier except for the miss part. Impish Breloom sounds like a decent option with the way we're going with this discussion Zebra. And the last time someone recommended to run impish breloom to counter something, it lead to a ban (Rhydon). Vileplume is so far one of the best counters to Crawdaunt to scout its set. It is in no way a problem or a reason as to why are meta is so shit.

Well aerial ace crawdaunt ohkos breloom pretty quickly as we saw in several UU tournaments. I'm not defending crawdaunt in any way, although if people are bitching about stall even with a powerhouse like crawdaunt running around with the ability to 2hko everything, then I don't really know what people want.

 

Scizor's main goal is to come in vs crunch which is what people usually spam with crawdaunt since there are very few dark resists while there are a lot of water resists like vileplume, slowking, exeggutor, quagsire, breloom, etc. 

[Robofiend]

Well aerial ace crawdaunt ohkos breloom pretty quickly as we saw in several UU tournaments. I'm not defending crawdaunt in any way, although if people are uguuing about stall even with a powerhouse like crawdaunt running around with the ability to 2hko everything, then I don't really know what people want.

Scizor's main goal is to come in vs crunch which is what people usually spam with crawdaunt since there are very few dark resists while there are a lot of water resists like vileplume, slowking, exeggutor, quagsire, breloom, etc.

>exactly why I think banning scizor is a half assed solution to uu stall