UU Viability Thread

[Robofiend]

Ban slowking, give scizor a couple of weeks should work. Per "the rules" we're not supposed to ban more than one thing at a time.

[BurntZebra]

Ban slowking, give scizor a couple of weeks should work. Per "the rules" we're not supposed to ban more than one thing at a time.

Or reverse them because scizor forces a ton of people to run slowking. If scizor wasn't there, then people probably wouldn't run slowking as much. 

[Toast]

Alright I haven't really voiced my opinion on slowking/scizor/vileplume or whatever the fuck you guys are trying to ban, but I think I should now. Being honest, UU is definitely moving the slowest out of them all, but is it necessarily the core's fault? It could be just me but I usually don't see the general slowking/scizor/vileplume core as much anymore. Imo those pokes aren't really too much of a problem in the tier, because if they were to be banned what would you ban them for? Sure they work well as a core together but can you ban it for that? Back then the steelix/blastoise/vileplume core was strong, I suppose they could be compared similarly to this one, but I remember hearing that stage of UU was "balanced", so I don't see much of a difference. If those three pokes are used, shouldn't you have atleast something to break it, or atleast prepare for it? Imo it shouldn't be as strong anymore since they've been in the tier for quite awhile, it gives time for some people to build some teams or pokes to play around it. Currently crobat is seeing some more usage I believe, because it can break that core, and it isn't too bad of a poke either, it's typing is handy, and a fast super fang is something to be afraid about imo. I think at this stage of the meta it's not those specific pokes, I think it's the lack of innovation and teambuilding to properly handle the meta. You could argue that those three is the best core in the tier, but it doesn't hurt to try other cores/pokes right? Haunter is gaining usage again, it's subdisable set is definitely scary if used properly.

 

I actually don't know what I typed up is actually helpful, but what I'm trying to say is that those pokes aren't uber, it's the fact that people are so attached to them that it's all that is used, but really there are other cores that are just as good and could possibly beat the general core. And well at this point of the competitive stage in general, breeding and funds is so fucked up that people don't try/want to make something else, with the fear of it being wasted because it may not work.

 

Yeah I'm not the type to write super long paragraphs so I might've just sounded like a complete dumbass lol

[DrCraig]

Alright I haven't really voiced my opinion on slowking/scizor/vileplume or whatever the fuck you guys are trying to ban, but I think I should now. Being honest, UU is definitely moving the slowest out of them all, but is it necessarily the core's fault? It could be just me but I usually don't see the general slowking/scizor/vileplume core as much anymore. Imo those pokes aren't really too much of a problem in the tier, because if they were to be banned what would you ban them for? Sure they work well as a core together but can you ban it for that? Back then the steelix/blastoise/vileplume core was strong, I suppose they could be compared similarly to this one, but I remember hearing that stage of UU was "balanced", so I don't see much of a difference. If those three pokes are used, shouldn't you have atleast something to break it, or atleast prepare for it? Imo it shouldn't be as strong anymore since they've been in the tier for quite awhile, it gives time for some people to build some teams or pokes to play around it. Currently crobat is seeing some more usage I believe, because it can break that core, and it isn't too bad of a poke either, it's typing is handy, and a fast super fang is something to be afraid about imo. I think at this stage of the meta it's not those specific pokes, I think it's the lack of innovation and teambuilding to properly handle the meta. You could argue that those three is the best core in the tier, but it doesn't hurt to try other cores/pokes right? Haunter is gaining usage again, it's subdisable set is definitely scary if used properly.

 

I actually don't know what I typed up is actually helpful, but what I'm trying to say is that those pokes aren't uber, it's the fact that people are so attached to them that it's all that is used, but really there are other cores that are just as good and could possibly beat the general core. And well at this point of the competitive stage in general, breeding and funds is so fucked up that people don't try/want to make something else, with the fear of it being wasted because it may not work.

 

Yeah I'm not the type to write super long paragraphs so I might've just sounded like a complete dumbass lol

I totally see what you're getting at Toast and this is sort of the same problem we had when we moved down all the BL pokes (Slowking, Zard, Zam, Scizor, Machamp, andddddd Umbreon I think?). When there's many powerful threats it's pretty hard to pinpoint the problem. Now, aside from Scizor dominating the tier and bringing Slowking with it, that common core you listed is powerful and may even seem broken, but it is hard to distinguish what does what. Since a lot of them are feeding on synergy you just get sent in a circle of this being good because of that and repeat. "Lack of innovation" is what's going to make these cores even more annoying and possibly problematic.

Edited December 6, 2015 by DrCraig

[Bestfriends]

Terrible news, the tournament is not going to be processed.... (My film is too fill, I am going to refresh my memory so that way I could film again).

[Robofiend]

I think Kanga should go to S rank and Slowking should come down to A.

 

Kanga's an amazing special wall, Toxic staller and even as an offensive mon it can rip teams up. Good speed, a great ability and a wide enough movepool let it do lots of things well and its usage speaks to its viability as an S rank, imo. It doesn't sweep teams but it provides a ton of support, similar to ORAS Clefable or something.

 

Slowking just doesn't shine that much outside of being a good Scizor check, and even then Flamethrower is so useless that I see many players giving up the OHKO on Scizor for Twave to bring down other threats. Kanga's popularity definitely hurts its viability, since it can come in on pretty much anything and rest off status/damage, as well as Toxic Slowking and prevent it from being so long-lived.

[DrCraig]

• Scizor has been removed (test banned)
• Slowking has been moved from S to A+

 

Waiting on meta to do things for future moves

[DoubleJ]

Kangaskhan to S-Rank; Manectric to A+

[MisterHide]

Still think Altaria deserve to be moved up to A rank.

[Viking]

Still think Altaria deserve to be moved up to A rank.

A+  i rise, NC rest DD is a hard movepool

[Arimanius]

Still think Altaria deserve to be moved up to A rank.

I agree, even more now without scizor to stop the dragon claw spam and even if there's a steelix, eq will do some dmg and steelix can't hurt that much

[BurntZebra]

Slowking also gets an extra move slot as it doesn't need flamethrower, meaning it can run ice beam to cover altaria now pretty easily

[Arimanius]

Slowking also gets an extra move slot as it doesn't need flamethrower, meaning it can run ice beam to cover altaria now pretty easily

fair point but now is easier to spam crunch too from crawdaunt unless u bring a poliwrath or a breloom or something like that so using a slowking can give problems too since it has problems against crawdaunt unlike exegg or vile

[DoubleJ]

The tier council will likely argue this to no end, but Swellow is definitely a top tier, and possibly broken, threat to UU without Scizor. Kangaskhan, and other special walls, protect Swellow from being revenge killed by faster pokes like Crobat and Electrode making it an amazing CB option that is borderline "too good not to use" in the current meta. In addition to this, we lost our most reliable counter to Swellow in CB Pursuit Scizor. There are no other viable (RIP Metang) CB Pursuit users that can switch in on Swellow and trap kill it, and it seems that we just hope to get a lucky Static paralysis or can hit it with Thunder Wave Slowking. I often find myself teambuilding against Swellow by forcing myself to carry two resists like Steelix and Omaster, since both are so easily worn down by spikes, and lack the longevity in game play to face Swellow late game on their own. 

 

tl;dr While we are monitoring this tier without Scizor, we should take a long hard look at Swellow if we intend to keep this ban permanent.  

[RysPicz]

I agree, it surely is a top tier threat right now- at least on paper. Because we don't even have UU tournaments to check it out. D: I think it might be pretty fine with Aggron/ Omastar/ Steelix in tier. The problem I see right now isn't Swellow but Zangoose- check damage calcs for Adamant CB Return coming out of that. I don't really know how it's still NU ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

[OrangeManiac]

Swellow is a weird Pokemon. It's really good and it makes you bring your Aggrons/Steelix/Omastar or whatever you would bring against it instead of Scizor. Because these Pokemon are almost necessities, Swellow underperforms against teams which have these Pokemon (so every team). It's definitely top tier and once you're able to play out those steel/rock tanks that thing just sweeps. I'd say because of how much you need to play around to break the Steel/Rock Pokemon it's not a S rank Pokemon but I'd say A+ is justified for it.

Edited January 2, 2016 by OrangeManiac

[Robofiend]

If I were building a team, I'd frankly be scared shitless of misplaying with Swellow because of how well Cradily abuses it:

252 Atk Choice Band Swellow Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cradily: 51-60 (26.4 - 31%) -- 6.2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Imo it's only a matter of time for this element of the metagame to catch up with how good Swellow is, because Cradily (especially when paired with a Cleric or using rest) is a huge threat to tons of teams. While Swellow can adapt to this by running Steel Wing, this again will cost it against the rest of the tier's resistance to that attack.

 

Despite this, it doesn't seem like Cradily will be de facto broken. I saw a couple last tournament, but Cradily's effectiveness is in part due to how unprepared most players are for it. Strong fighting attacks still break through it's boosted, rocky defenses. 

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Hitmonlee Superpower vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Cradily: 218-260 (112.9 - 134.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0 Atk Hitmontop Hi Jump Kick vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Cradily: 144-170 (38.2 - 45.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Granbull Ice Punch vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Cradily: 174-206 (46.2 - 54.7%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (note that Superpower isn't optimal here because a good Cradily player will predict it, know that it won't KO, and use Recover).

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Superpower vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Cradily: 328-386 (87.2 - 102.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

 

Note that some of these pokemon hate coming in on Bullet Seed, but in that case they will also have an easier time breaking Cradily or forcing/predictingh the switch to punish the switch in.

[Viking]

 

If I were building a team, I'd frankly be scared shitless of misplaying with Swellow because of how well Cradily abuses it:

252 Atk Choice Band Swellow Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cradily: 51-60 (26.4 - 31%) -- 6.2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Imo it's only a matter of time for this element of the metagame to catch up with how good Swellow is, because Cradily (especially when paired with a Cleric or using rest) is a huge threat to tons of teams. While Swellow can adapt to this by running Steel Wing, this again will cost it against the rest of the tier's resistance to that attack.

 

Despite this, it doesn't seem like Cradily will be de facto broken. I saw a couple last tournament, but Cradily's effectiveness is in part due to how unprepared most players are for it. Strong fighting attacks still break through it's boosted, rocky defenses. 

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Hitmonlee Superpower vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Cradily: 218-260 (112.9 - 134.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0 Atk Hitmontop Hi Jump Kick vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Cradily: 144-170 (38.2 - 45.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Granbull Ice Punch vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Cradily: 174-206 (46.2 - 54.7%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (note that Superpower isn't optimal here because a good Cradily player will predict it, know that it won't KO, and use Recover).

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Superpower vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Cradily: 328-386 (87.2 - 102.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

 

Note that some of these pokemon hate coming in on Bullet Seed, but in that case they will also have an easier time breaking Cradily or forcing/predictingh the switch to punish the switch in.

 

breloom is the best checker for cradily

[Bestfriends]

Osuki VS Frags, very epic. As you can tell, I was a bit hyper when commentating the final match....

 

 

Enjoy! :)

 

 

Edited November 24, 2016 by Bestfriends
Updated URL

[KingBowser]

Osuki VS Frags, very epic. As you can tell, I was a bit hyper when commentating the final match....

 

 

Enjoy! :)

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcuu86BgSeI&feature=youtu.be

Sweet UU metagame. Tier council is so dumb.

[DrCraig]

Aaaaaaaaaand update time.

Kangaskhan moved from A+ to S.
It is clear that Kangaskhan is running the tier as it is basically too good not to run. There is little risk with running a Kangaskhan as it is an ideal special wall boasting great pivoting, par offensive pressure and par heals. It's versatility lets it branch off into CB and tank sets which are also pretty good as they are equipped with high speed, coverage and a powerful stab. Kangaskhan is clearly on another level when compared to the rest of the pokemon in UU. I expect to usage on Kanga to be huge as they're clearly everywhere because of this.

I think Kanga should go to S rank and Slowking should come down to A.

Kanga's an amazing special wall, Toxic staller and even as an offensive mon it can rip teams up. Good speed, a great ability and a wide enough movepool let it do lots of things well and its usage speaks to its viability as an S rank, imo. It doesn't sweep teams but it provides a ton of support, similar to ORAS Clefable or something.

Kangaskhan to S-Rank

Slowking moved from A+ to A.
Without Scizor, Slowking has lost one of it's most important roles in the tier. Slowking is still a solid mon overall with a lot going for it.

I think Kanga should go to S rank and Slowking should come down to A.

Slowking just doesn't shine that much outside of being a good Scizor check, and even then Flamethrower is so useless that I see many players giving up the OHKO on Scizor for Twave to bring down other threats. Kanga's popularity definitely hurts its viability, since it can come in on pretty much anything and rest off status/damage, as well as Toxic Slowking and prevent it from being so long-lived.

Slowking also gets an extra move slot as it doesn't need flamethrower, meaning it can run ice beam to cover altaria now pretty easily

Manectric moved from A to A+.
The pokemon has shaped up into a more dominant later as the meta has evolved; I believe it has an edge over other A ranked mons.

Manectric to A+

Altaria moved from B+ to A.
Altaria clearly has more breathing room without Scizor in the meta. Altaria's offensive sets can take advantage of a good portion of the mainstream meta. Altaria's wall sets are generally safe options which cover a large portion of the tier. Altaria has some nice tools and coverage.

Still think Altaria deserve to be moved up to A rank.

I agree, even more now without scizor to stop the dragon claw spam and even if there's a steelix, eq will do some dmg and steelix can't hurt that much

Slowking also gets an extra move slot as it doesn't need flamethrower, meaning it can run ice beam to cover altaria now pretty easily

Cradily moved from B to A.
With the addition of bullet seed and players simply realizing how good it is, Cradily has shown up. Cradily boasts reliable recover, good STABs, and a great set up move in Curse which can provide some late game sweeps. It's unique typing allows it to wall Manectric and many other special attackers while not kneeling to Swellows Return spam. Cradily is a solid option in UU.

Armaldo moved from B to B+.
Armaldo fills a niche role for countering Kangaskhan effectively. Armadlo is a solid wall breaker and a force one it gets rolling with its high power stab and generic physical coverage.

Crobat moved from C to B.
Crobat is a solid anti-meta poke with a unique movepool, bulk and high speed. Super fang can make for it's lack in powerful offense.

I'm thinking crobat could be bumped up from C to B rank. With breloom seeing some useage since the bullet seed update it acts as a nice pivot(4x resisting both of breloom's STAB moves) while also being able to pressure special walls such as careful kanga/clef with its access to super fang and STAB sludge bomb. As well as the great defensive typing it has great speed and coverage to hit the whole tier- heat wave for scizor/vileplume, giga for omastar and sludge for exeggutor/breloom.

Blastoise moved from B+ to B.

Aggron moved from B to C.

Shuckle moved from B to C.



Thank you for the input everybody!
Edited January 8, 2016 by DrCraig

[DoubleJ]

Not sure why we dropped Aggron. While it has little use, it literally shits on two of the top threats in the UU metagame Kangaskhan (Toxic immunity, resistance to DE, and is tickled by Fire Punch) and Swellow. It can also destroy Cradily if you pack Iron Tail and it has decent speed for a bulky Choice Band user. 

[Robofiend]

Not sure why we dropped Aggron. While it has little use, it literally shits on two of the top threats in the UU metagame Kangaskhan (Toxic immunity, resistance to DE, and is tickled by Fire Punch) and Swellow. It can also destroy Cradily if you pack Iron Tail and it has decent speed for a bulky Choice Band user. 

 

True, but Kangaskhan does have courses of action against Aggron (as do other attackers). EQ and Brick Break (not sure why you'd run Brick Break) do a solid chunk of damage to Aggron. It's still weak to Surf and only really boasts neutral fire damage over Steelix. Altaria hits it hard with EQ as well. I'd prefer Steelix when it's all said and done - neutral/resisted damage from Cradily, doesn't take as much damage from Kanga, almost the same resist profile.

[DoubleJ]

True, but Kangaskhan does have courses of action against Aggron (as do other attackers). EQ and Brick Break (not sure why you'd run Brick Break) do a solid chunk of damage to Aggron. It's still weak to Surf and only really boasts neutral fire damage over Steelix. Altaria hits it hard with EQ as well. I'd prefer Steelix when it's all said and done - neutral/resisted damage from Cradily, doesn't take as much damage from Kanga, almost the same resist profile.

 

Well yea, but it's one of those pokemon that could alter the meta for a beneficial change. It's a direct answer to the most common set on the most commonly used poke that is seen as being the most detrimental to the tier. I know it's shit though, but the peeps need to see it too. Steelix loses to Kanga 9 times out of 10, and Cradily needs Rest to topple the Kangster. 

 

Just my insight. 

[Robofiend]

True, I guess Gron's access to Superpower is a selling point (vs. Kangu) compared to Steelix's reliance on Quake

 

Oh and those free turns awarded by Rest make it easier to come in as an Aggron.

Edited January 19, 2016 by Robofiend