OU Tier Discussion Request Thread

[DoubleJ]

Was making a thread to discuss the ubers, but then realized they're all still broken as fuck. Was leaning towards testing Salamence, but 135 base Attack stat is just too much for the tier with CB Dragon Claw spam. We can already see how powerful Dragon Claw can be on Flygon, which has an base Attack stat of 100, 35 less than Salamence. Mence, like Flygon, can also dispatch its primary counters with Fire Blast or EQ. Milotic adds an element of "maybe", but I don't think the community wants to rely on Milotic as a safe counter/check.

[pachima]

5 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

Was making a thread to discuss the ubers, but then realized they're all still broken as fuck. Was leaning towards testing Salamence, but 135 base Attack stat is just too much for the tier with CB Dragon Claw spam. We can already see how powerful Dragon Claw can be on Flygon, which has an base Attack stat of 100, 35 less than Salamence. Mence, like Flygon, can also dispatch its primary counters with Fire Blast or EQ. Milotic adds an element of "maybe", but I don't think the community wants to rely on Milotic as a safe counter/check.

Where are slowbros and porygon2? 

Hey, it has more counters than snorlax

Edited October 8, 2016 by pachima

[DoubleJ]

4 minutes ago, pachima said:

Where are slowbros and porygon2? 

[spoilers] Hey, it has more counters than snorlax [/spoilers]

Nah, it ain't Gyarados. Spikes + CB Dragon Claw can easily remove both. Slowbro also loses a really handy move for Ice Beam to ensure it can beat Salamence when healthy. P2... well... it's ok with Trace (Intimidate) but then it becomes Snorlax bait. 

 

EDIT: The difference for me here is that Snorlax has safe checks and absolute hard counters dependent on the set it runs. Salamence though has no hard counters and can beat every switch in. 

Edited October 8, 2016 by DoubleJ

[pachima]

1 minute ago, DoubleJ said:

Nah, it ain't Gyarados. Spikes + CB Dragon Claw can easily remove both. Slowbro also loses a really handy move for Ice Beam to ensure it can beat Salamence when healthy. P2... well... it's ok with Trace (Intimidate) but then it becomes Snorlax bait. 

 

EDIT: The difference for me here is that Snorlax has safe checks and absolute hard counters dependent on the set it runs. Salamence though has no hard counters and can beat every switch in. 

if u think about that, spikes + mixed exeggutor can demolish OU in 2hits. 

For the snorlax bait yeah, you are right, but atm, there are so many snorlax baits...

Lastly, I still think slowbro gets a special mention here. Anyway, most stuff he checks like band swamp or flygon, he is required to have max hp, just like this scenario

252+ Atk Choice Band Salamence Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 153-180 (38.8 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery

 

 

 

[Kimikozen]

11 minutes ago, pachima said:

if u think about that, spikes + mixed exeggutor can demolish OU in 2hits. 

It's hard to get in exeggcutor easily because of its terrible defensive typing, while salemence has so many free switch ins due to its good defensive typing and intimidate. Not to mention mence does not need setup to be a monster.

Edited October 8, 2016 by Kimikozen

[pachima]

2 minutes ago, Kimikozen said:

It's hard to get in exeggcutor easily because of its terrible defensive typing, while salemence has so many free switch ins due to its good defensive typing and intimidate. Not to mention mence does not need setup to be a monster.

its not that hard believe me. 

And sala does not have that many free switch ins. 

I mean, salamence would be too op. True, But its on the same line as snorlax, maybe a testban could determine whether or not it would be uberoffensive or not. Pokemon is not linear, so its hard to state whatever we state without getting to play it.

[Spaintakula]

On 10/8/2016 at 11:49 PM, pachima said:

its not that hard believe me. 

And sala does not have that many free switch ins. 

I mean, salamence would be too op. True, But its on the same line as snorlax, maybe a testban could determine whether or not it would be uberoffensive or not. Pokemon is not linear, so its hard to state whatever we state without getting to play it.

Thing is, we've already seen what salamence can do, not really news some, if not most.

Exegg is just a really bad example of a mon that can sweep with spike support, you could've said something more dangerous. Low speed, running mixed set makes both your offenses a tad bit weaker and running it with sun support makes it harder to pull off, while mence doesn't need almost any of that.

 

It's much easier buildiing a team around salamence rather than focusing on what you say with exeggutor.

I don't mind it being OU, pretty sure some know I'm all about everything stuffed in OU including legendaries, but yeah

[OrangeManiac]

Alright, I'm gonna be that guy.

 

Discussion to unban Fagtrio, please. The fact many of the Pokemon Dugtrio trapped from those old wallbreakers are now very viable scarf users. I know Dugtrio can run Scarf too but it hits like the weakest baby with it. In addition Shed Hull makes this Pokemon possibly a waste of a party slot. Might still be unhealthy for this very reason but at least needs a discussion because it would be banworthy for very different reasons it was banned for.

 

Edited October 24, 2016 by OrangeManiac

[SweeTforU]

Keep lax and unban dug 

[pachima]

Rip jolteon.

[LifeStyle]

Legendaries when

[DoubleJ]

18 minutes ago, OrangeManiac said:

Alright, I'm gonna be that guy.

 

Discussion to unban Fagtrio, please. The fact many of the Pokemon Dugtrio trapped from those old wallbreakers are now very viable scarf users. I know Dugtrio can run Scarf too but it hits like the weakest baby with it. In addition Shed Hull makes this Pokemon possibly a waste of a party slot. Might still be unhealthy for this very reason but at least needs a discussion because it would be banworthy for very different reasons it was banned for.

 

I might have to support this sadly. Dugtrio was banned because it restricted team building and promoted stall tactics by being able to readily remove most wall breakers (Aerial Ace for Heracross, SubVersal for Ursaring, etc etc). With the introduction of Choice Scarf (Swift Band?), Heracross easily beats Dugtrio unless it gets locked into Rock Slide. Other common wallbreakers right now include Flygon, Gyarados, Breloom, Blaziken, and Rhydon which all have ways of beating Dugtrio, and readily take advantage of the SubVersal set that will likely be the most popular, well except Rhydon unless it's locked (or unlocked) into Rock Blast and breaks the sub for reversal every time.

 

252+ Atk Rhydon Rock Blast (2 hits) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dugtrio: 42-48 (37.8 - 43.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

 

 

[Laz]

If Dugtrio gets unbanned one will be forced to run scarf and get locked into 1 move just to beat trio.

I think that's centralization, also stuff like metagross, blaziken will be unviable.

That wouldn't be fixing, but more like making the tier even worse.

 

[Spaintakula]

1 minute ago, Lazaro23 said:

If Dugtrio gets unbanned one will be forced to run scarf and get locked into 1 move just to beat trio.

I think that's centralization, also stuff like metagross, blaziken will be unviable.

That wouldn't be fixing, but more like making the tier even worse.

 

It's not fixing though, it's just that dugtrio's reason for being banned is outdated, hence why orange asked for a discussion.

But yeah, since new items came, more ways to deal with it, not saying it won't trap and kill, just that it'll have less chances now.

[DoubleJ]

Just now, Lazaro23 said:

If Dugtrio gets unbanned one will be forced to run scarf and get locked into 1 move just to beat trio.

I think that's centralization, also stuff like metagross, blaziken will be unviable.

That wouldn't be fixing, but more like making the tier even worse.

 

The goal of tiering is to limit bans as much as possible. I think it should be explored now that we've decided to keep Snorlax in the tier. Is it healthy? Well, we don't know outside of theory. 

 

Bullet Seed has made it possible to absolutely destroy Dugtrio. We also have a boosted Pin Missile. 

 

Metagross can tank a CB EQ from the Dug, but that's only if it's healthy.

 

252 Atk Choice Band Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 152-180 (81.2 - 96.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Bullet Punch when?

 

Blaziken can still Quick Attack any Sub-Versal set to oblivion and if it's +2 Attack with Swords Dance well...

 

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken Quick Attack vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dugtrio: 107-126 (96.3 - 113.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

 

It's going to alter the tier for sure, but I think it might be ok to use at this point and time. I'd love it if I were proven wrong though with a bit of testing. 

[Thunderprime]

Why didnt it get tested like snorlax and gengar? Dont forget this wimp is easily pursuit trapped to oblivion

Edited October 24, 2016 by Thunderprime

[DoubleJ]

Just now, Thunderprime said:

Why didnt it get tested like snorlax is gengar? Dont forget this wimp is easily pursuit trapped to oblivion

Ehhh, not so true. When Gengar was in the meta it quickly evolved into a bulky pseudo-wall that was almost untouchable outside of a STAB Super Effective attack which it easily evaded. It had 100 switch in opportunities and just broke every physical attacker and supported a team just a bit too easily. 

 

The set in question:

 

LOL Gengar

Nature: Bold

Ability: Levitate

Item: Leftovers

EV: 252 HP / 196 Def / 60 Speed 

• Sludge Bomb
• Shadow Ball
• WoW
• Pain Split / Taunt

 

[KaynineXL]

14 minutes ago, Lazaro23 said:

If Dugtrio gets unbanned one will be forced to run scarf and get locked into 1 move just to beat trio.

I think that's centralization, also stuff like metagross, blaziken will be unviable.

That wouldn't be fixing, but more like making the tier even worse.

 

Unviable is not accurate. When Dugtrio was here, Meta was still one of the dominant pokes, even more so than today. As JJ pointed out with Blazikens, some used QA on the sd sets which can fuck Dugtrios.

 

That said, I'm not so sure on bringing Dug back.. It makes me feel crappy thinking about it, but is it unhealthy? That's another question.

[Thunderprime]

9 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

Ehhh, not so true. When Gengar was in the meta it quickly evolved into a bulky pseudo-wall that was almost untouchable outside of a STAB Super Effective attack which it easily evaded. It had 100 switch in opportunities and just broke every physical attacker and supported a team just a bit too easily. 

 

The set in question:

 

LOL Gengar

Nature: Bold

Ability: Levitate

Item: Leftovers

EV: 252 HP / 196 Def / 60 Speed 

• Sludge Bomb
• Shadow Ball
• WoW
• Pain Split / Taunt

 

I was talking about dugtrio mate (pursuit trapped)

Edited October 24, 2016 by Thunderprime

[OrangeManiac]

11 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

The goal of tiering is to limit bans as much as possible.

PokeMMO 2013: "OMG DID YOU JUST TAKE TTAR FROM US? YOU CANT DO THAT YOU FUCKING MONSTER FUCK YOU SENILE"

 

PokeMMO 2016: "It's annoying, take it away from me. TAKE IT AWAY. NOW. >.<"

[pachima]

27 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

Other common wallbreakers right now include Flygon, Gyarados, Breloom, Blaziken, and Rhydon which all have ways of beating Dugtrio,

Flygon and gyara are not trapped, though.

[NikhilR]

I think Zebra had touched up on this a few months ago. While the addition of scarf limits Dugtrio's ability to trap a lot of sweepers, it'll still be very useful on stall teams because it'll do the same thing it did. Band / Specs / Orb are much more threatening to stall compared to scarf, so whether dugtrio can or can't trap scarf users is irrelevant since they don't have the power to break the Dugtrio user's walls. Wallbreakers like SD Ursaring, Mixed Blaziken, Mixed Meta and CB Hera would be limited so much and also the fact that it easily revenge kills something is something else I worry. 

 

Personally, I don't want our meta to be more trap oriented. 

Edited October 24, 2016 by NikhilR

[DoubleJ]

2 minutes ago, KaynineXL said:

Unviable is not accurate. When Dugtrio was here, Meta was still one of the dominant pokes, even more so than today. As JJ pointed out with Blazikens, some used QA on the sd sets which can fuck Dugtrios.

 

That said, I'm not so sure on bringing Dug back.. It makes me feel crappy thinking about it, but is it unhealthy? That's another question.

The one thing I like is that the more dominant pokemon we add to the tier, the more diverse the tier could become. Dugtrio opens a lot of opportunity for set-up. Gyarados, Charizard, Haunter, Linoone, Poliwrath (yup I said it), etc etc with a bit of creativity. Dugtrio might be a friend of stall, but it doesn't do any favors when it runs Fighting + Ground or gets locked into a move via CB. 

 

tl;dr it's a double-edged sword. 

 

Just now, Thunderprime said:

I was talking about dugtrio mate

Why did you mention Gengar then?

[pachima]

Also, if dugtrio ever gets OU, snorlax will just get stronger. 

Specs which was one of the reasons for some that kept snorlax from being uber defensive would be much less used. Rhydon can be easily taken care with dugtrio on the right circunstances, metagross same shit.

Rhydon can beat dugtrio but the player using dugtrio has the advantage over it by setting up field so he pleases.

Dugtrio could be OU, still dont know, but please dont make snorlax even stronger.

[Laz]

20 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

252 Atk Choice Band Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 152-180 (81.2 - 96.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

We all know Metagross needs enough speed to outspeed Arcanine, and other Metagross, so I assume 108-9 is something to go for, which is in that case, gets 1hko'd by Earthquake.

20 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken Quick Attack vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dugtrio: 107-126 (96.3 - 113.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

 

We also know that the most used set on Blaziken is 252 sp.atk, 4 Atk with Life orb, Fire/flamethrower - Hp grass - Superpower - Thunderpunch, which is in that case, won't have the chance to kill Dugtrio.
And yeah If trio gets unbanned, I wouldn't run metagross nor Blaziken just for the sake to not get trapped, I'll also have to run whirlwind on snorlax, and Shell hull on Chansey, which will waste 1 slot / recovery item that coulda save me from strong special sweepers.

Edited October 24, 2016 by Lazaro23
slot*