OU Tier Discussion Request Thread

[KaynineXL]

2 minutes ago, pachima said:

Also, if dugtrio ever gets OU, snorlax will just get stronger. 

Specs which was one of the reasons for some that kept snorlax from being uber defensive would be much less used. Rhydon can be easily taken care with dugtrio on the right circunstances, metagross same shit.

Rhydon can beat dugtrio but the player using dugtrio has the advantage over it by setting up field so he pleases.

Dugtrio could be OU, still dont know, but please dont make snorlax even stronger.

Don't be silly.

 

Dugtrio traps Snorlax, how could it possibly make it stronger?

 

Edit: And yes, it would most certainly be OU.

Edited October 24, 2016 by KaynineXL

[DoubleJ]

Just now, Lazaro23 said:

We all know Metagross needs enough speed to outspeed Arcanine, and other Metagross, so I assume 108-9 is something to go for, which is in that case, gets 1hko'd by Earthquake.

Yea, it's the rough life for Meta, but as Kay pointed out the big guy was our number one option in the old meta with Dugtrio. So who knows what will happen.

 

Just now, Lazaro23 said:

We also know that the most used set on Blaziken is 252 sp.atk, 4 Atk with Life orb, Fire/flamethrower - Hp grass - Superpower - Thunderpunch, which is in that case, won't have the chance to kill Dugtrio.
And yeah If trio gets unbanned, I wouldn't run metagross nor Blaziken just for the sake to not get trapped, I'll also have to run whirlwind on snorlax, and Shell hull on Chansey, which will waste 1 lot / recovery item that coulda save me from strong special sweepers.

And yup, a double-edge sword. Limiting Lax and Chansey is always great for the tier, but we also nerf our wall breaking options, well unless you're one crafty son of a uguu. 

[NikhilR]

Just now, KaynineXL said:

Don't be silly.

 

Dugtrio traps Snorlax, how could it possibly make it stronger?

CB Dugtrio traps Snorlax's checks. The sub reversal one takes care of the special walls. 

[KaynineXL]

6 minutes ago, NikhilR said:

CB Dugtrio traps Snorlax's checks. The sub reversal one takes care of the special walls. 

At best it evens it out.

 

Snorlax has no worries right now, other than the rare trapinch. If Dugtrio was here, even if players aren't using it, you've still got to play with Snorlax knowing that they could possibly have one.

 

Edit: I guess trapich isn't that rare, but dugtrio would be much higher than the usage.

Edited October 24, 2016 by KaynineXL

[gbwead]

The reason why Dugtrio was not tested after the reset is because the TC believed almost unanimously that it would remain unhealthy. Adamant Swift Choice Band Dugtrio can be a real pain and its revenge killing potential is quite troubling.

 

Gengar and Blissey were banned for being unhealthy and centralising in a Dugtrioless meta. Unbanning Dugtrio will challenge the validity of these bans and we would most likely end up having to test them again. For this reason, I feel it would be unwise to unban Dugtrio. I would rather look forward than backward.

[Laz]

11 minutes ago, gbwead said:

The reason why Dugtrio was not tested after the reset is because the TC believed almost unanimously that it would remain unhealthy. Adamant Swift Choice Band Dugtrio can be a real pain and its revenge killing potential is quite troubling.

 

Agreed

 

12 minutes ago, gbwead said:

Gengar and Blissey were banned for being unhealthy and centralising in a Dugtrioless meta. Unbanning Dugtrio will challenge the validity of these bans and we would most likely end up having to test them again.

Not agreeing cuz

0 SpA Blissey Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 44 SpD Dugtrio: 51-61 (46.3 - 55.4%) -- 68% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dugtrio: 118-141 (107.2 - 128.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 120-142 (33.1 - 39.2%) -- 15.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Dugtrio Pursuit vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 56-66 (41.1 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Dugtrio Rock Slide vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 51-61 (37.5 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Gengar and Blissey are way more op than dugtrio, it's not like trio can handle them in any way.

[fredrichnietze]

Just now, Lazaro23 said:

Adamant Swift Choice Band Dugtrio can be a real pain and its revenge killing potential is quite troubling.

it'd only really be good at revenge killing damaged enemies and glass cannons like jolteon, and the cannons can hold the escape item if they are worried about getting trapped.

[DoubleJ]

23 minutes ago, gbwead said:

The reason why Dugtrio was not tested after the reset is because the TC believed almost unanimously that it would remain unhealthy. Adamant Swift Choice Band Dugtrio can be a real pain and its revenge killing potential is quite troubling.

 

Gengar and Blissey were banned for being unhealthy and centralising in a Dugtrioless meta. Unbanning Dugtrio will challenge the validity of these bans and we would most likely end up having to test them again. For this reason, I feel it would be unwise to unban Dugtrio. I would rather look forward than backward.

It never hurts to look to the past though, especially when the meta is currently in a state of flux (or stale-ness?). Dug makes sense right now. Is it fun? No, but the tier council isn't designed to ensure the meta is "fun". 

[pachima]

23 minutes ago, Lazaro23 said:

252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey

Everytime I see 252 hp blissey i feel like throwing up.

[gbwead]

48 minutes ago, Lazaro23 said:

Gengar and Blissey are way more op than dugtrio, it's not like trio can handle them in any way.

I agree, but Dugtrio could potentially change the face of the OU meta in such a way where Gengar and Blissey are more manageable. Dugtrio's presence in OU could indirectly make Gengar and Blissey not as unhealthy as they used to be.

Edited October 24, 2016 by gbwead

[RysPicz]

With Dugtrio in tier (and Gengar) we could also bring back Tyranitar maybe... ;))

[Thunderprime]

3 hours ago, gbwead said:

Dugtrio's presence in OU could indirectly make Gengar and Blissey not as unhealthy as they used to be.

How?

[gbwead]

5 hours ago, Thunderprime said:

How?

If Dugtrio gives a hard time to pokemons that makes Gengar's or Blisssey's answers less viable, Dugtrio's presence in OU would most likely result in an increase of usage for Gengar's or Blissey's unviable answers.

[Erayne]

252 SpA Choice Specs Gengar Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Snorlax: 78-93 (29.2 - 34.8%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

 

0 Atk Snorlax Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 100-118 (74.6 - 88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

 

Gengar totally viable IMO. Would limit snorlax, especially body slam spam (which is probably the most cancerous thing about snorlax) but still would be possible to counter. I think we should try it

 

[fredrichnietze]

Just now, Erayne said:

252 SpA Choice Specs Gengar Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Snorlax: 78-93 (29.2 - 34.8%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

 

0 Atk Snorlax Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 100-118 (74.6 - 88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

 

Gengar totally viable IMO. Would limit snorlax, especially body slam spam (which is probably the most cancerous thing about snorlax) but still would be possible to counter. I think we should try it

 

"gengar used substitute! snorlax used crunch! gengar used disable! snorlax can not attack!"

gengar sets up a second sub then spams s bomb. also wow/ps bulky gar, sub/fp gar, and orb boom. lax is a counter to some gars but not all. nothing counters all gengars. that's why it's banned.

[Erayne]

4 minutes ago, fredrichnietze said:

"gengar used substitute! snorlax used crunch! gengar used disable! snorlax can not attack!"

gengar sets up a second sub then spams s bomb. also wow/ps bulky gar, sub/fp gar, and orb boom. lax is a counter to some gars but not all. nothing counters all gengars. that's why it's banned.

There are a lot of pokemon that have different movesets that can't be countered by a single pokemon. So, that doesn't mean much

[fredrichnietze]

Just now, Erayne said:

There are a lot of pokemon that have different movesets that can't be countered by a single pokemon. So, that doesn't mean much

you are wrong. go read this 

specifically on the definitions of uber and counters.

[Erayne]

4 minutes ago, fredrichnietze said:

you are wrong. go read this 

specifically on the definitions of uber and counters.

A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.

 

Apart from this being interpretable in many ways, I don't see how gengar can't be limited when it can be easily revenge killed, and sometimes even walled. If sub gengar really becomes much used, the tier would just adapt with more ww snorlax.

[fredrichnietze]

the point isnt one gar is too strong. the point is all of them are strong and useable and nothing each set only has a very few # of counters. further more these few counters are not overlapping. because of this no matter what you do you can destroyed by gengar because you cant bring a counter for every set unless your entire team is gengar counters, at which point you cant deal with anything else.

and gengar can NOT be easily revenged killed. his movepool is huge and he has high enough speed that only a few threats can outspeed him. further more scarf set is viable so unless you run a scarf 115+ speed poke you cant be sure to outspeed until you know what item hes holding. gengars movepool and base stats are such that the few checks all fear something from gar. pursuit trapping can sometimes work, but sub/disable and wow just shit on pursuit'ers and most of them are glass cannons who cant 1hko if gengar doesnt switch making it a 50/50 bet.

 

gengar fits uber offensive, and arguably support. 

[gbwead]

12 minutes ago, fredrichnietze said:

gengar fits uber offensive, and arguably support. 

Don't forget that Blissey was OU when Gengar got banned. For this reason, Gengar could not really fit Offensive Uber characteristics and was banned for being unhealthy. 

[fredrichnietze]

2 minutes ago, gbwead said:

Don't forget that Blissey was OU when Gengar got banned. For this reason, Gengar could not really fit Offensive Uber characteristics and was banned for being unhealthy. 

perish trap thou

[gbwead]

2 minutes ago, fredrichnietze said:

perish trap thou

shed hull Blissey thou

 

Gengar was forcing Blissey to hold a Shed Hull, scout Focus Punch and run 2 offensive moves in order to bypass Disable. Gengar can't do all these things at once, but a player needed to take all these things in consideration when teambuilding. Gengar was extremely centralising in that regard, but it was not unstoppable either.

[fredrichnietze]

1 minute ago, gbwead said:

shed hull Blissey thou

 

Gengar was forcing Blissey to hold a Shed Hull, scout Focus Punch and run 2 offensive moves in order to bypass Disable. Gengar can't do all these things at once, but a player needed to take all these things in consideration when teambuilding. Gengar was extremely centralising in that regard, but it was not unstoppable either.

ok thats 1 solid counter for everything.

Edited October 26, 2016 by fredrichnietze
i thought it couldn't be done

[Erayne]

I think gengar would finally change this too difensive meta. Like 50% players run 4 or more walls atm, and that's because the tc tend to prefer banning offensive pokemon instead of defensive ones. That just promotes brainless playing instead of the need to predict. The return of gengar to ou would definitely increase fun for those who actually can play. That of course is just my opinion.

[DaftCoolio]

46 minutes ago, Erayne said:

I think gengar would finally change this too difensive meta. Like 50% players run 4 or more walls atm, and that's because the tc tend to prefer banning offensive pokemon instead of defensive ones. That just promotes brainless playing instead of the need to predict. The return of gengar to ou would definitely increase fun for those who actually can play. That of course is just my opinion.

Or are there so many offensive threats that it forces people to run 4 walls to cover them all? Would adding gengar force people to run 5 walls? The relationship between banning offensive pokemon and a more stall based meta isn't always so straight forward, this relationship can sometimes be inverse.