[Banned to ubers] Gengar

[BurntZebra]

Now that gengar has been test banned from the OU meta for a length of 5 official OU tournaments (roughly 5 weeks), there are a new set of things to discuss about the OU meta and what sort of impact the lack of gengar might impose on the meta. The OU tier council will be tasked with deciding the fate of gengar after these 5 OU tournaments. Post your thoughts on why the OU meta is better/worse/unbalanced etc on this thread.

Please avoid claims that have no evidence to back them up and have general common sense when posting.

Edited October 4, 2015 by BurntZebra

[DrCraig]

I'd like to have this here for everybody's reference:

 

The OU Tier Council has decided to test ban Gengar for the duration of 5 Official OverUsed tournaments. Boasting great typing, a huge movepool, a useful ability and great base stats, Gengar is capable of running extremely effective sweeper sets, mixed sets, trapper sets, bulky support sets, and pretty much everthing in between There is a Gengar set to fit every team's needs to the point that it is borderline too good not to use.

 

The roles Gengar plays are unmatched and difficult to deal with on the defensive and offensive side. The lack of answers to Gengar results in team building being restricted to stacking Gengar checks. Evidence of this can be seen in a number of pokemon - including max SpDef Magneton, Arcanine and Metagross, whose EV spreads exist almost strictly to counter it. 

 

Despite its strengths, Gengar is not "Uber" as the OU Council sees it and can be played around to some degree. Some players have suggested Gengar is the necessary "glue" that prevents strategies like Normal spam to Endure/Reversal from running rampant. We will be watching the metagame closely to see if these predictions are true, as well as further signs that banning Gengar actually creates a less competitive tier. 

 

After the 5 tournaments period for which Gengar is test banned, a final decision will be made on Gengar's place in the OU tier.

 

Also, I'd like to point out that until we have a tournament, most of the discussion here will be theorymon. We've already read the bulk of the theorymon discussion.

No point in delving to deep in debates right now in my opinion.

Edited August 26, 2015 by DrCraig

[BurntZebra]

I don't really think the poll does that much. If anything, it decreases the amount of discussion in threads because people just vote and then leave the discussion without really contributing why they voted the way they did. 

[VenomExareo]

I feel like a poll was out of line if it wasnt brought into consideration at all. I would understand if Genger couldnt be outsped or one shotted BUT it can... Thats why I feel its ridiculous. Yeah, it has a huge move pool, but thats what players like. They can create a Gengar to fit anywhere in their team, to cover weak spots, etc. 

[DoctorPBC]

The meta really is not going to be better off because of this, gengar was really the only decent check left to well played hardcore stall modes which WILL run rampant after this ban.

A meta without gengar is one were Chansey is free to wall the crap out of any special attacker that even tries to do something, gengar had the tools to admittedly be the best jack of all trades and could actually annoy Chansey a bit... Every other special attacker in the game gets shut down without too much trouble.

Sure dugtrio fixes the Chansey issue but even then it's going to make dugtrio a must have for any team that isn't running 5+ walls... And we all know that it would become way too centralizing.

Basically what I'm saying is that gengar is probably the strongest Pokemon in the tier and a ban wouldn't be completely unjustified, but without it and the plethora of other things you guys have banned which led to this ban running 4 walls, a spinner and a trapper will become the top strategy in the game.


Tldr: gengar ban is bad for meta, stall becomes too viable and not a whole lot other than dugtrio counters it... Which is too centralizing.



[spoiler] unban tyranitar you plebs, and am still dead[/spoiler]

[DrCraig]

I feel like a poll was out of line if it wasnt brought into consideration at all. I would understand if Genger couldnt be outsped or one shotted BUT it can... Thats why I feel its ridiculous. Yeah, it has a huge move pool, but thats what players like. They can create a Gengar to fit anywhere in their team, to cover weak spots, etc. 

The poll was brought into consideration. We do talk to each other outside of the comp alley and we do look at it. The poll was not lopsided like you are making it out to be. Regardless it is just a tool for us and the community to gauge everybody's ultimate opinions.

[inovan]

come on he deserves the ban gengar is too fucking annoying ,he have a huge move pool and is 80% unpredictable,all these arguments and polls are totally invalid is just a waste of time anyways its going to be banned why test it :v gengar deserves the ban

nothing else matters

[BurntZebra]

May I reiterate this statement to posters on this thread.

Please avoid claims that have no evidence to back them up and have general common sense when posting.

[Robofiend]

The meta really is not going to be better off because of this, gengar was really the only decent check left to well played hardcore stall modes which WILL run rampant after this ban.

 

>ignoring the fact that Ursaring exists (and KO's pretty much every wall in the tier)

Edited August 26, 2015 by Robofiend

[bl0nde]

Some remaining options to assert offensive pressure would be:

 

Charizard: Sunny day+blaze is very powerful. Bellydrum can sweep in the right circumstances. The unpredictability of the pokemon gives a big edge.

Metagross: yep, it's popular and prepared for. That doesn't mean it is a weak pokemon.

Kingdra: Rest + chesto berry and various sets can sweep if not prepared for.

Ursaring: as mentioned, it is very strong. Maybe be different and try facade + choice band or something.

Flygon: can be quite powerful with a band. good speed and good resistences give it switch ins.

Gyarados: as strong as ever. Remember, it didn't have its waterfall stab before the physical/special move split. Already bored of it?

Heracross: able to break you if arn't ready.

Slaking: gengar is gone. Is slaking more free to spam its STAB now?

etc.

 

No one has said for sure if the meta will be better or worse with gengar gone. Just try to be open minded and experiment with the meta. Angry speculation and venting is sort of wasted breath right now imo - at least until some data is presented.

[DrCraig]

No one has said for sure if the meta will be better or worse with gengar gone. Just try to be open minded and experiment with the meta. Angry speculation and venting is sort of wasted breath right now imo - at least until some data is presented.

Yea, Blonde that is how we feel and I want just clear up any misconception had. We are not banning Gengar and hoping it stays ban. We aren't hoping it gets unbanned either. We approach these tests with open minds, not trying to prove people wrong. We don't ban things so we can go 'ya huh, broken, told ya."

 

And can you guys stop posting your one word complaints and sassy remarks? That's not what this thread is for.

[DoubleJ]

>ignoring the fact that Ursaring exists (and KO's pretty much every wall in the tier)

Disregarding dugtrio (or even diglett's) impact on the tier

[KingBowser]

Some remaining options to assert offensive pressure would be:
 
Charizard: Sunny day+blaze is very powerful. Bellydrum can sweep in the right circumstances. The unpredictability of the pokemon gives a big edge.
Metagross: yep, it's popular and prepared for. That doesn't mean it is a weak pokemon.
Kingdra: Rest + chesto berry and various sets can sweep if not prepared for.
Ursaring: as mentioned, it is very strong. Maybe be different and try facade + choice band or something.
Flygon: can be quite powerful with a band. good speed and good resistences give it switch ins.
Gyarados: as strong as ever. Remember, it didn't have its waterfall stab before the physical/special move split. Already bored of it?
Heracross: able to break you if arn't ready.
Slaking: gengar is gone. Is slaking more free to spam its STAB now?
etc.
 
No one has said for sure if the meta will be better or worse with gengar gone. Just try to be open minded and experiment with the meta. Angry speculation and venting is sort of wasted breath right now imo - at least until some data is presented.

Slowbro + arcanine

[n0vylif3]

I remember that when i started playing Pokemmo had to re-do my team cuz gengar infinite movepool + stab end etc etc sweeping all my pokes, and now that he is gone the void is real.

 

 

 

So unban the ghost, Gengar is a really necessary pain for the meta.

 

 

 

and pls never move tauros to UU.

[Murcielago]

Props to the OU council for handling this.  I have confidence the correct conclusion will be made.  I still don't really understand the problem though... It seems people just want the game to be more predictable (which it already is, simply because most trainers aren't very creative IMO).  It seems that some mixed builds for Gengar caught on that were relatively effective and were copied by everyone. 

 

I could be way off base here, I'm a newb... after all.

 

If I had to guess, Gengar probably be coming back, but ultimately being used less because people will be forced to expand their horizons a bit.

[bl0nde]

It has only been a short time, but In general I have seen people going with one of three different adjustments since the test ban has been in place:

1.  People who simply replace gengar with something that is similarly overused and impactful as long as it generally fits with their team. An example would be replacing gengar with metagross.
2.  People who try to bring very hard hitting offense to try to exploit less ghost types "haunting" the field. As you know, part of this influx of offense is also because choice bands are now 1/3 the price.
3.  People who prefer to keep a spinblocker and modify their team slightly to work with dusclops.

I'm also seeing Porygon2 a little more. My initial theory is that it seems like it is a slightly less defensive pokemon than umbreon and chansey. With gengar's presence gone, it seems like a fraction of the players feel it is advantageous to use porygon's greater offensive presence for the special defensive wall role. I even saw one porygon that used sharpen + return, which seemed to work well in the right situation.

 

The test ban period has been fun to watch so far.

Edited August 29, 2015 by bl0nde

[BurntZebra]

It has only been a short time, but In general I have seen people going with one of three different adjustments since the test ban has been in place:

1.  People who simply replace gengar with something that is similarly overused and impactful as long as it generally fits with their team. An example would be replacing gengar with metagross.
2.  People who try to bring very hard hitting offense to try to exploit less ghost types "haunting" the field. As you know, part of this influx of offense is also because choice bands are now 1/3 the price.
3.  People who prefer to keep a spinblocker and modify their team slightly to work with dusclops.

I'm also seeing Porygon2 a little more. My initial theory is that it seems like it is a slightly less defensive pokemon than umbreon and chansey. With gengar's presence gone, it seems like a fraction of the players feel it is advantageous to use porygon's greater offensive presence for the special defensive wall role. I even saw one porygon that used sharpen + return, which seemed to work well in the right situation.

 

The test ban period has been fun to watch so far.

Porygon was being used a lot, even before the gengar test ban, since its the only special wall with a decent offensive presence, and can also check stuff like gyarados with its trace ability. I've only played about two battles of OU since the gengar test ban, but so far, it feels so much easier to run an offensive team, just because before, gengar could usually ohko pretty much everything on an offense team, and it is also to run balanced and stall because you're not punished for running a spiker or dusclops. I'm not entirely sure the choice band price decrease will actually make an impact on official tournaments, since if you play officials, you're most likely going to make that 600-650k investment to be able to run offensive pokemon. I have also noticed a lot of people just replaced their gengar with a defensive weezing, as it checks a similar level of threats like heracross, gyarados, and marowak. 

[OrangeManiac]

Alright, here's some thoughts I've had about the whole "new meta" and I'm only responding to this post as I find it really good post to reflect my thoughts, so nothing really directed Blonde or anything.

 

 

1.  People who simply replace gengar with something that is similarly overused and impactful as long as it generally fits with their team. An example would be replacing gengar with metagross.
   
   I personally think Metagross is completely unaffected by Gengar.  It's a Pokemon you could already slap in any team and it will forever be that way. In addition Gengar's departure doesn't directly change anything because they were pretty even in heads up battle. Maybe Exploding will be easier, I don't know.
   
   I personally think Pokemon like Alakazam or even Sceptile will turn up in the metagame as the offensive Pokemon to deal with things but both of these Pokemon are massively inferior to Gengar due to lack of diversity. Alakazam still has the flaw of getting trapped by Umbreon. But not even guaranteed since Gengar also was one of those Pokemon you could slap in every team just because it was that good.
    
2.  People who try to bring very hard hitting offense to try to exploit less ghost types "haunting" the field. As you know, part of this influx of offense is also because choice bands are now 1/3 the price.
   
   I don't know what was the fuzz all about the departure of Gengar making hard hitting offense more viable. Especially I hear a lot that "Normal Choice Banding will get too effective". We're talking about this Pokemon that if it switched in against anything else than a move it's immune, the Gengar is dead (assuming sweeper set which IS the main Gengar's moveset). Pretty much any other move. So let's not act like really that much happened and that Gengar even despite laughable defenses is somewhat a defensive factor in this tier. There still are the high number of Steel-types, Dusclops is viable Pokemon even though it is hanging in the depths of UU (will change if the ban goes through) so Normal Choice Banding won't be that insane as we consider it without Gengar. And Dusclops is like multiple times more reliable switch in to those than Gengar. And what top tier threat exactly in OU is all about Normal Choice Banding maybe other than Ursaring (note I said TOP TIER though)?
   
   If anything, Fight-types did in fact get better as the main incoming Ghost is now Dusclops. Hariyama and Machamp may have Guts which means Dusclops really don't even check these Pokemon reliably. But a quick look at usage statistics - how much is exactly Machamp and Hariyama used? If anything this is just a nice way to get them some action.
    
3.  People who prefer to keep a spinblocker and modify their team slightly to work with dusclops.
   
   Dusclops is pretty much the most reliable spinblocker in a metagame I have ever seen so I really don't know why people had opt to go for Gengar. I guess it's because it's just that good in general as stealing the momentum than spinblocking. But if we're only concentrating on the spinblocking aspect of the metagame then Dusclops has always been much viable at that but like I said, Gengar has always been a Pokemon you could slap in every team and people probably didn't like the idea of two Ghost-types in one team. Well, neither would I.

I'm also seeing Porygon2 a little more. My initial theory is that it seems like it is a slightly less defensive pokemon than umbreon and chansey. With gengar's presence gone, it seems like a fraction of the players feel it is advantageous to use porygon's greater offensive presence for the special defensive wall role. I even saw one porygon that used sharpen + return, which seemed to work well in the right situation.

Weird because I personally ran SP. Def Pory2 mainly to prevent Gengar from destroying my team. It's still a great mon to keep Jolteon on checks and P2 is just overall great Poke.

Edited August 31, 2015 by OrangeManiac

[Robofiend]

LF more responses

[KaynineXL]

The last OU tourney, literally mags/dugs everywhere.. Sometimes both in the same team.. So boring. 

[zteban]

Lets wait for the usage, I think chansey go up

[Vaeldras]

btw chansey with psychic can beat gengar just fine iirc

[KingBowser]

OU is looking pretty fun right now. Much diversity imo

[RysPicz]

Trappers are almost everywhere. Well, okay. Everywhere.

Every team I played this far had Mag or Dug, sometimes even both. I belive I seen a Doom as well. Tauros' viability went up asf without Gengar's presence. I don't know what is worse, Gengars in every single team or magnetrio every 2 battles.

I couldn't be there to see all the battles during last OU official due to a hard week after which I needed a solid sleep, but as far as I have seen, physical normal/ fighting/ ground spam combined with Magneton was very effective and popular. Hard to say if stall became even more viable or not, when trappers are now on such a rise (though I lost to a stall team yesterday- props gbwead, that was a solid team).

[BurntZebra]

Trappers are almost everywhere. Well, okay. Everywhere.

Every team I played this far had Mag or Dug, sometimes even both. I belive I seen a Doom as well. Tauros' viability went up asf without Gengar's presence. I don't know what is worse, Gengars in every single team or magnetrio every 2 battles.

I couldn't be there to see all the battles during last OU official due to a hard week after which I needed a solid sleep, but as far as I have seen, physical normal/ fighting/ ground spam combined with Magneton was very effective and popular. Hard to say if stall became even more viable or not, when trappers are now on such a rise (though I lost to a stall team yesterday- props gbwead, that was a solid team).

To be honest, I think people would still run magneton a lot if gengar was unbanned. Magneton is pretty special since it can beat chansey/umbreon/porygon (unless hp ground/fire) AND it can trap/potentially trap skarmory/forretress/metagross. I won a lot of my battles in the OU tournament a week ago by just wish passing to magneton and breaking down venusaur/chansey/porygon, not even relying on a physical attacker to sweep. Magneton being more viable is probably more from the snorlax/blissey ban, rather than the gengar ban, but gengar not being there to shut down every physical attacker definitely makes a physical magneton team more viable though.