Confusion thread

[NikhilR]

1 minute ago, gbwead said:

So, if a pokemon uses Rest but doesn't use Sleep Talk or Snore, its confusion counter won't go down?

 

It shouldn't because it lasts for 1-4 attacking turns.

[gbwead]

If the pokemon using the confusion move is faster the the one getting confused, does the turn the confusion move is used count as the first turn, similarly to the sleep mechanic?

[RysPicz]

6 minutes ago, gbwead said:

If the pokemon using the confusion move is faster the the one getting confused, does the turn the confusion move is used count as the first turn, similarly to the sleep mechanic?

Aye it does, poke can instantly snap out of confusion (happened to me in an official match vs enchanteur in one of OU officials), right after it got confused. Chances aren't very big though

[gbwead]

1 minute ago, RysPicz said:

Aye it does, poke can instantly snap out of confusion (happened to me in an official match vs enchanteur in one of OU officials), right after it got confused. Chances aren't very big though

25% chance to snap after 1 turn

25% chance to snap after 2 turns

25% chance to snap after 3 turns

25% chance to snap after 4 turns

 

So the chances to snap directly are 25% right or does it work differently?

[RysPicz]

5 hours ago, gbwead said:

25% chance to snap after 1 turn

25% chance to snap after 2 turns

25% chance to snap after 3 turns

25% chance to snap after 4 turns

 

So the chances to snap directly are 25% right or does it work differently?

Isn't it like:

25% to snap out in turn 1

33% to snap out in turn 2

50% to snap out in turn 3

100% to snap out in turn 4

(we are assuming 4 consecutive non-confusion turns, a'ka you did not get confuhaxed)

(?)

I dunno if that's actually correct- I'm following the discussion all the time and throwing likes here and there, but except for my unpleasant experiences with confusion in the past I prefer just to read and hoped I can give some info about the status itself. I'm still developing my own opinion but I'm quite skeptical about a status that removes competitiveness from the game and makes it completly RNG reliant.

Edited September 17, 2016 by RysPicz
erased unnecessary word

[Bestfriends]

On 16/09/2016 at 2:27 PM, Bestfriends said:

This is one of the few times where I respond in a competitive thread, but I think my YouTube experience is needed in this thread. As a competitive commentator, I love the mixed bag that follows in competitive play. RNG spices up my commentary and puts some of my viewers in the excitement of the moment. If we take away the RNG and confusion aspect of this game, my competitive content would be quite dry.

 

 

This is one of the rare times where I talk about Donald Trump in PokeMMO, but I feel like he is needed in this discussion. Mr. Trump has had a lot of risk and reward in his time as a New York real estate developer, he took risks on building that were fair from perfect and turned them into successes. Not all of his ventures were successful like the Trump Shuttle for example, but he took the risk. In the 90s, Trump was having some serious troubles with his empire and almost lost it, but thanks to his confidence, he was able to revive the Trump empire and made it bigger and stronger. I feel like people in the competitive community take risks with their team and they are rewarded or they fail hard. Lets put Trump's situation in the competitive atmosphere, if NikhilR lost to PlayerA, then NikhilR would make a team a lot stronger and he would cover some of his weak points and that can take a para hax once or twice and then when he goes in and he wins the battle.

Good morning competitive community, I would like to formally apologise for using Donald Trump as an example for PokeMMO. I will not disclose who I am voting for this election, but I did a lot of research on Donald Trump and Hillary Clintion respectively. Donald Trump has a negative cogitation on the internet, so I should of looked into another businessman as an example. The point I was trying to drive is that you take risks and you'll either get rewarded or you fail. You take a risk and you have to consider the RNG or the confusion and you need to have a pokemon that can handle it or if not. If your not willing to risk RNG or confusion, have a cleric to switch into.

Edited September 19, 2016 by Bestfriends
clarification

[Raederz]

Most of the competitive game has a "luck" part.

I've been competitive player of another strategy game, and I can say that, in Pokemon, the luck part is not that high.

 

Being a good competitive player means : Know to choose the right way to play (choose the right move/switch here), regarding luck as a long term constant variable.

 

There is a lot of factors, that will tend you to choose one move or another, and luck must be one of them. If you have 10% to freeze, you must see it like : 1/10 freeze efficient.

Then you have to "value" a freeze, being average of how efficient a freeze can be, in the current situation.

See it like : Probablility * Efficiency = Value of the "lucky" part.

 

In many competitive games, it's frowned to complain about luck. Doing it, you caracterise yourself as "unable to understand the long term", which makes your decisions probably distorted.

 

(I choose freeze insteat of confusion because I just wanted to explain the idea, without a precise exemple, exemple is not long term :3)

_______

I never tried to be a Pokemon comp player, but thing I just told worked for me in every strategy game I played (all including a "luck" part)

[BigShotJoe]

On 9/17/2016 at 10:15 AM, gbwead said:

25% chance to snap after 1 turn

25% chance to snap after 2 turns

25% chance to snap after 3 turns

25% chance to snap after 4 turns

 

So the chances to snap directly are 25% right or does it work differently?

If I remember correctly, it works like sleep in that the duration is determined as soon as the effect is applied. This means that when you become confused, the game randomly chooses a number between 1-4 and that'show many turns you will be confused for. Same goes for sleep.

[Erayne]

It's just the same: every turn has the same chance to snap out of confusion. So prior to the move it's 25% for each turn. So at the first turn it's 25%, in the second turn if you haven't snapped out it's 33%(1/3), third turn 50%(1/2) and fourth 100%(1)

[pachima]

Are you guys sure? Yesterday I got a five turns confusion on mah starmie.

[Erayne]

6 hours ago, pachima said:

Are you guys sure? Yesterday I got a five turns confusion on mah starmie.

Probably you started counting from the turn you got confused even if starmie attacked first

[NikhilR]

Seriously why isn't shit like confuse ray not banned yet? 

[Spaintakula]

Since when did confuse ray turn more threatening than status spam like twave

[pachima]

On 25/09/2016 at 8:12 PM, Erayne said:

Probably you started counting from the turn you got confused even if starmie attacked first

I dont think so, but not sure.

Edited September 27, 2016 by pachima

[NikhilR]

1 hour ago, Spaintakula said:

Since when did confuse ray turn more threatening than status spam like twave

It's not about threatening, it's about how people fish for RNG to win. That's the only purpose of confusion. I almost lost to a confuse ray Crobat again and in the last turn, my opponent whispers to me, "When you don't get the parahax or confusion hit when you need it". 

[LifeStyle]

> Players who go hax > skill

[Spaintakula]

47 minutes ago, NikhilR said:

It's not about threatening, it's about how people fish for RNG to win. That's the only purpose of confusion. I almost lost to a confuse ray Crobat again and in the last turn, my opponent whispers to me, "When you don't get the parahax or confusion hit when you need it". 

Yeah, but, thing is, thunder wave isn't all that different. By saying "people fishing for rng to win", you are already talking about every move/situation that abuses RNG, and thunder wave falls in that category. Should we say twave needs to be considered, because let's be honest, albeit the move is considered mainly? as a move that cripples mons, everyone knows it's capability of abusing the free turns it can get to get that win con, especially if your strategy is more focused on it.

 

Honestly, I'd understand people complaining about swagger, I was pretty neutral with it too, and couldn't really pick where to stand.

That was 1 thing. Another thing is how often you can see confuse ray. It's already limited to some pokemon, which, I believe, 90% of, are either UU or below. And out of the 10% you'd say were OU by tier, the move's usage isn't that concerning, bar like, dusclops?. Don't take it as a proof, it's just something of a statistic to show a better view of what I'm trying to paint here.

You mentioned crobat, which is most probably the best user to run cray on, and the others that'd run it are A) available of running better sets B) not that populated seeing how cray isn't a move which offers service to that many pokemon and C)bad mons.

 

Another point which I'll straight out type out rather than elaborate again, does it really matter what the player's mentality is whilst playing?

I do get some of our playerbase is shit like that, I just don't really see it and wouldn't really like it to become real.

Banning swagger wouldn't really change that much drastically, but even thinking about banning confuse ray seems to open door to alot of other things being in danger of being considered for a ban, which fall more or less in the same category as the move itself.

[Pythonhier]

Right let's create a confusion clause for comp, cause it's based off a RNG.  While were at it we should create a clause for Paralyze, Freeze, and any pokemon that can leave a chance to cause a status effect when inflicted with damage.  We need to also remove the crit chance from the game, and ban any moves that has to do with critical chance.  Also we need to ban any move that has a chance to make the foe flinch, as well as ban the move metronome, and present.  

Need I go on, or did I make my point on how stupid the whole point of this thread is? If you don't want a competitive game with some RNG, then go play a different game. This is Pokemon, or did you forget what game you're playing?

Edited September 27, 2016 by Pythonhier

[NikhilR]

30 minutes ago, Spaintakula said:

Yeah, but, thing is, thunder wave isn't all that different. By saying "people fishing for rng to win", you are already talking about every move/situation that abuses RNG, and thunder wave falls in that category. Should we say twave needs to be considered, because let's be honest, albeit the move is considered mainly? as a move that cripples mons, everyone knows it's capability of abusing the free turns it can get to get that win con, especially if your strategy is more focused on it.

 

Honestly, I'd understand people complaining about swagger, I was pretty neutral with it too, and couldn't really pick where to stand.

That was 1 thing. Another thing is how often you can see confuse ray. It's already limited to some pokemon, which, I believe, 90% of, are either UU or below. And out of the 10% you'd say were OU by tier, the move's usage isn't that concerning, bar like, dusclops?. Don't take it as a proof, it's just something of a statistic to show a better view of what I'm trying to paint here.

You mentioned crobat, which is most probably the best user to run cray on, and the others that'd run it are A) available of running better sets B) not that populated seeing how cray isn't a move which offers service to that many pokemon and C)bad mons.

 

Another point which I'll straight out type out rather than elaborate again, does it really matter what the player's mentality is whilst playing?

I do get some of our playerbase is shit like that, I just don't really see it and wouldn't really like it to become real.

Banning swagger wouldn't really change that much drastically, but even thinking about banning confuse ray seems to open door to alot of other things being in danger of being considered for a ban, which fall more or less in the same category as the move itself.

The difference is that there is another useful purpose to thunderwave other than just not allowing the paralyzed mon to attack. Also twave can be abused by lightning rod pokemon or given free switches in by ground types whereas there are hardly any pokemon that are immune to confusion. By saying "people fishing for rng to win" I mean people using moves which have the sole purpose of rng-ing you. It's not the same as any move that has RNG associated with it. There is more to using twave as a strategy, especially in gen4 where you use it to increase your chances to flinch. That's a strategy, whereas using a move like confuse ray which has only a 50% chance of working for you is not a strategy. 

 

It doesn't matter which tier confuse ray's viability is limited to, the point is that it is something really uncompetitive and would be better if gotten rid of. I don't know what other pokes could run confuse ray because I honestly haven't seen many people run that move but the two times I've seen it being used, has worked wonders vs me.  

 

The reason why I mentioned the mentality of the player is to  highlight that their aim is to win the battle through hax, and not skill. This shouldn't be the way matches are approached. I gave an example earlier of how we have a hax items clause. Moves generally have only a 10% chance of missing when facing a brightpowder pokemon or 20% chance of hitting first with quick claw, that could be considered strategic also, but it involves 0 skill. 

[Pythonhier]

2 minutes ago, NikhilR said:

The difference is that there is another useful purpose to thunderwave other than just not allowing the paralyzed mon to attack. Also twave can be abused by lightning rod pokemon or given free switches in by ground types whereas there are hardly any pokemon that are immune to confusion. By saying "people fishing for rng to win" I mean people using moves which have the sole purpose of rng-ing you. It's not the same as any move that has RNG associated with it. There is more to using twave as a strategy, especially in gen4 where you use it to increase your chances to flinch. That's a strategy, whereas using a move like confuse ray which has only a 50% chance of working for you is not a strategy. 

"Thunder Wave paralyzes the target. Thunder Wave cannot affect Ground-type Pokémon or targets that already have a non-volatile status condition."
"a paralyzed Pokémon runs a 25% risk of losing their turn due to full paralysis. In addition, the afflicted Pokémon's Speed decreases to 25%"

"The confused condition causes a Pokémon to hurt itself in its confusion 50% of the time. The damage is done as if the Pokémon attacked itself with a 40-power typeless physical attack (without the possibility of a critical hit). Confusion wears off after 1-4 attacking turns."

Interesting. Looking at the facts.  Confusion is a status ailment that only harms you for a limited amount of time, with a higher chance of it occuring in that short span of time. Can also be cured by switching out your pokemon.  Paralyzing is an ailment that stays till you decide to heal it by other means,  reduces your speed indeffiently till you decide to switch your pokemon, and runs the chance of you missing  your attack phase 25% of the time. Not being able to cure it by switching out.

Deffiently. Confusing a pokemon is MUCH more dangerous then paralyzing one.

 

Quote

It doesn't matter which tier confuse ray's viability is limited to, the point is that it is something really uncompetitive and would be better if gotten rid of. I don't know what other pokes could run confuse ray because I honestly haven't seen many people run that move but the two times I've seen it being used, has worked wonders vs me. 

So you admit to not having full knowledge of the ability your arguing against, and your reasoning is cause it defeated you in a small amount of matches that you had the libraty of encountering it.

 

Quote

The reason why I mentioned the mentality of the player is to  highlight that their aim is to win the battle through hax, and not skill. This shouldn't be the way matches are approached. I gave an example earlier of how we have a hax items clause. Moves generally have only a 10% chance of missing when facing a brightpowder pokemon or 20% chance of hitting first with quick claw, that could be considered strategic also, but it involves 0 skill. 

The game has RNG. It's pokemon most of the whole game is based off RNG, christ every attack that has damage has a chance to critical.  If you are looking for a competive game without RNG then don't play Pokemon.  With your logic then at the same time we would have to ban everything that has to do with Critical, Sleep, Paralyze, Freeze, Flinch, Abilities that have a chance to go off (I.E Static/Effect Spore), any move with random effects like Metronome, or Present.

Your logic is completely flawed based on the game your trying to make your argument on.

[NikhilR]

3 minutes ago, Pythonhier said:

"Thunder Wave paralyzes the target. Thunder Wave cannot affect Ground-type Pokémon or targets that already have a non-volatile status condition."
"a paralyzed Pokémon runs a 25% risk of losing their turn due to full paralysis. In addition, the afflicted Pokémon's Speed decreases to 25%"

"The confused condition causes a Pokémon to hurt itself in its confusion 50% of the time. The damage is done as if the Pokémon attacked itself with a 40-power typeless physical attack (without the possibility of a critical hit). Confusion wears off after 1-4 attacking turns."

Interesting. Looking at the facts.  Confusion is a status ailment that only harms you for a limited amount of time, with a higher chance of it occuring in that short span of time. Can also be cured by switching out your pokemon.  Paralyzing is an ailment that stays till you decide to heal it by other means,  reduces your speed indeffiently till you decide to switch your pokemon, and runs the chance of you missing  your attack phase 25% of the time. Not being able to cure it by switching out.

Deffiently. Confusing a pokemon is MUCH more dangerous then paralyzing one.

 

So you admit to not having full knowledge of the ability your arguing against, and your reasoning is cause it defeated you in a small amount of matches that you had the libraty of encountering it.

 

The game has RNG. It's pokemon most of the whole game is based off RNG, christ every attack that has damage has a chance to critical.  If you are looking for a competive game without RNG then don't play Pokemon.  With your logic then at the same time we would have to ban everything that has to do with Critical, Sleep, Paralyze, Freeze, Flinch, Abilities that have a chance to go off (I.E Static/Effect Spore), any move with random effects like Metronome, or Present.

Your logic is completely flawed based on the game your trying to make your argument on.

This is from my post a page ago:

 

" This here is mostly a note to all the jackasses that compare confusion to other status effects, or say that "RNG is a part of the game, so accept it"  or say that "Pokemon is a game of rng, if you don't like it then go play something else" : We can't ban crits, burns, freezes or enforce 100% move accuracy on all moves, but we can ban moves whose primary effect is to cause confusion because as I mentioned, all it does is decide the game by RNG. It's stupid to keep things in the game which do nothing but amplify the role of rng and at the same time while banning it basically has no negative impact on the metagame. There's a reason why there is a hax items clause (for those plebs who've done no comp and still like to post in comp alley pretending like they know something, have a readhttps://forums.pokemmo.eu/index.php?/topic/37764-official-pokemmo-list-of-clauses-updated-with-tournament-mode-clauses/ ) and even that has more "strategy" behind it than using confuse ray / swagger.  "

[Pythonhier]

2 minutes ago, NikhilR said:

This is from my post a page ago:

 

" This here is mostly a note to all the jackasses that compare confusion to other status effects, or say that "RNG is a part of the game, so accept it"  or say that "Pokemon is a game of rng, if you don't like it then go play something else" : We can't ban crits, burns, freezes or enforce 100% move accuracy on all moves, but we can ban moves whose primary effect is to cause confusion because as I mentioned, all it does is decide the game by RNG. It's stupid to keep things in the game which do nothing but amplify the role of rng and at the same time while banning it basically has no negative impact on the metagame. There's a reason why there is a hax items clause (for those plebs who've done no comp and still like to post in comp alley pretending like they know something, have a readhttps://forums.pokemmo.eu/index.php?/topic/37764-official-pokemmo-list-of-clauses-updated-with-tournament-mode-clauses/ ) and even that has more "strategy" behind it than using confuse ray / swagger.  "

I don't understand where you're going with this?  Confusion is a status ailment that is less effective then almost any other status ailment in the game.  Paralyze can win or you lose you the game.  Freeze will most likely make you lose the game.  Sleep can win or lose you the game. Flinch can win or lose you the game. That's the whole point of RNG.  The competitive side with it is to plan for it, and then take the proper cautions to counter it.

You already stated that seeing this status ailment is not common, and with it being to cure with a single switch compared to other more dangerous status ailments this doesn't even need to be discussed.  You have no grounds for your case.  Nothing at all, other then just "i dont liek dis, plz ban".

[KaynineXL]

15 minutes ago, Pythonhier said:

"Thunder Wave paralyzes the target. Thunder Wave cannot affect Ground-type Pokémon or targets that already have a non-volatile status condition."
"a paralyzed Pokémon runs a 25% risk of losing their turn due to full paralysis. In addition, the afflicted Pokémon's Speed decreases to 25%"

"The confused condition causes a Pokémon to hurt itself in its confusion 50% of the time. The damage is done as if the Pokémon attacked itself with a 40-power typeless physical attack (without the possibility of a critical hit). Confusion wears off after 1-4 attacking turns."

Interesting. Looking at the facts.  Confusion is a status ailment that only harms you for a limited amount of time, with a higher chance of it occuring in that short span of time. Can also be cured by switching out your pokemon.  Paralyzing is an ailment that stays till you decide to heal it by other means,  reduces your speed indeffiently till you decide to switch your pokemon, and runs the chance of you missing  your attack phase 25% of the time. Not being able to cure it by switching out.

Deffiently. Confusing a pokemon is MUCH more dangerous then paralyzing one.

 

So you admit to not having full knowledge of the ability your arguing against, and your reasoning is cause it defeated you in a small amount of matches that you had the libraty of encountering it.

 

The game has RNG. It's pokemon most of the whole game is based off RNG, christ every attack that has damage has a chance to critical.  If you are looking for a competive game without RNG then don't play Pokemon.  With your logic then at the same time we would have to ban everything that has to do with Critical, Sleep, Paralyze, Freeze, Flinch, Abilities that have a chance to go off (I.E Static/Effect Spore), any move with random effects like Metronome, or Present.

Your logic is completely flawed based on the game your trying to make your argument on.

I don't know if Nikhil ever did say "Confusion is MUCH more dangerous than Twave" but from what I saw, he was trying to point out Confusion is much more RNG reliant than Twave which is obviously true. The reason most people use Twave is to decrease that Pokemons speed, that alone cripples like all offensive Pokemon that aren't immune. Confuse ray on the other hand, literally all can do is try and hax you, it doesn't do anything else.

 

The fact that Twave has 25% hax chance where as Confuse ray has a 50% hax rate plays a big role in this comparison as well, that's a pretty huge difference.

I just don't think you can compare Twave with Confuse ray at all.

Edited September 27, 2016 by KaynineXL

[DarylDixon]

Just now, KaynineXL said:

I don't know if Nikhil ever did say "Confusion is MUCH more dangerous than Para" but from what I saw, he was trying to point out Confusion is much more RNG reliant than Twave which is obviously true. The reason most people use Twave is to decrease that Pokemons speed, that alone cripples like all offensive opponents that aren't immune. Confuse ray on the other hand, literally all can do is try and hax you, it doesn't do anything else.

 

The fact that Twave has 25% hax chance where as Confuse ray has a 50% hax rate plays a big role in this comparison as well, that's a pretty huge difference.

I just don't think you can compare Twave with Confuse ray at all.

confuse ray 99,9%  haxx rate*

[NikhilR]

5 minutes ago, Pythonhier said:

I don't understand where you're going with this?  Confusion is a status ailment that is less effective then almost any other status ailment in the game.  Paralyze can win or you lose you the game.  Freeze will most likely make you lose the game.  Sleep can win or lose you the game. Flinch can win or lose you the game. That's the whole point of RNG.  The competitive side with it is to plan for it, and then take the proper cautions to counter it.

You already stated that seeing this status ailment is not common, and with it being to cure with a single switch compared to other more dangerous status ailments this doesn't even need to be discussed.  You have no grounds for your case.  Nothing at all, other then just "i dont liek dis, plz ban".

How is a 50% of something going against you the same as a 10% or 20% or 25% chance of happening? What are the proper cautions one can take to counter confusion? You switch out, yes, but then what's to stop from the other pokemon from confusing you again? There's no immunity either, so there's literally no downside to using it. 

Edited September 27, 2016 by NikhilR