[OU Discussion] Chansey

[Laz]

Time to take the bait.
If Chansey somehow gets moved to Ubers, how the Heck will you be able to stop a Growth Venusaur, at least Chansey is there to do a Twave to temporarily stall it while figuring out the next move.
Now before a pleb mentions Calm Gardevoir, Venusaur can be easily paired with a CB Pursuit Metagross to make Venusaur sweep more easily.

[Tranzmaster]

As a followup on my previous post, my opinion about Chansey hasn't changed that much, even though it's a pain in the ass.

 

I still think there are options enough to deal with Chansey and not make it overcentralizing.

 

Also again, you don't need to necessarily "deal" with Chansey if you just made an overall offensive team that can outpressure it.

 

Metagross/Flygon/Porygon2/Venusaur/Gyarados/Milotic for example is the team i'm currently running. It does fairly well against Chansey teams since Chansey doesn't get too much opportunity to come in freely. You might say, well it's free against Milotic. Ok, but what does Chansey do in return? You can scout for Chansey's moveset with Milotic and Porygon 2 and then anticipate. Flygon for Twave and Metagross for Toxic. Both of them hit Chansey super hard in return and potentially does decent damage against their walls. Weezing does not want to keep taking CB meteor mash or CB Dragon Claw. Once forretress and Weezing are below half health, it sets up Gyarados to sweep.

 

I'm not saying it's the best option, it's a risky playstyle that requires you to play more predictively and it requires "more skill" to execute i guess, but that can be seen as subjective.

All I want to prove is that you should stop looking for that one pokemon that completely shuts down Chansey while you can have a good team that makes Chansey less impactful.

 

And before you quote it: Of course my team can be stopped. Otherwise I would have won a tournament (yes i said it). But from my experience i've been doing reasonably well against Chansey teams. 

 

Yeah, keep the "Tranz is bad" memes coming. At least I don't run Chansey. Gottem

 

INB4 HURR DURR BUT THIS IS EXACTLY WHY UR BAD CONKELDURR

 

2 hours ago, Lazaro23 said:

Time to take the bait.
If Chansey somehow gets moved to Ubers, how the Heck will you be able to stop a Growth Venusaur, at least Chansey is there to do a Twave to temporarily stall it while figuring out the next move.
Now before a pleb mentions Calm Gardevoir, Venusaur can be easily paired with a CB Pursuit Metagross to make Venusaur sweep more easily.

Twave sp def porygon 2 - Sp def arcanine - Crobat.

 

Just suggestions that let you live a +1 growth attack or double attack and lets you hit status/hit hard in return.

Edited January 31, 2017 by Tranzmaster

[Spaintakula]

1 hour ago, Tranzmaster said:

Metagross/Flygon/Porygon2/Venusaur/Gyarados/Milotic

Scouted

10 hours ago, LuisPocho said:

   how many time did you see those work in good players matches? even if they worked, how many times did you see those counters not being easy revenge killing? how many times did I see  those weird sets not working as intended? quite a lot

 I could accept your point If I ever see those pokes being that much succesfull (I mean, not only deal with chansey, also be a problem after killing chansey or something)

 I think the only viable pokes that can abuse chansey are growth venu (if chansey not tw) and physical wallbreakers in general... you cant say 1 attack alakazam or 2 attacks move vapo are viable... 

The problem isn't they suck cuz you don't see them. You don't see them cuz our players suck at creativity. That's deep

[gbwead]

4 hours ago, Lazaro23 said:

Time to take the bait.
If Chansey somehow gets moved to Ubers, how the Heck will you be able to stop a Growth Venusaur, at least Chansey is there to do a Twave to temporarily stall it while figuring out the next move.
Now before a pleb mentions Calm Gardevoir, Venusaur can be easily paired with a CB Pursuit Metagross to make Venusaur sweep more easily.

That is possibly one of the worst argument imo since Growth Venusaur started appearing because of Chansey. I really doubt Venusaur would be used as much as it is used now in a Chanseyless meta. It just would not have its main set up bait anymore.

Edited January 31, 2017 by gbwead

[Laz]

6 minutes ago, gbwead said:

That is possibly one of the worst argument imo since Growth Venusaur started appearing because of Chansey.

is that a fact or your impression ? yet it doesn't mean anything

 

10 minutes ago, gbwead said:

I really doubt Venusaur would be used as much as it is used now in a Chanseyless meta

Idk what makes you think that, since Venu can win in a 1v1 against pory, umbreon, dusclops, while Gardevoir can be easily trapped like I said earlier
Also do you really think chansey is making special attackers unviable ? hard to deal with ?

 

23 minutes ago, gbwead said:

set up bait

yup that's what it is.

[gbwead]

10 minutes ago, Lazaro23 said:

is that a fact or your impression ? yet it doesn't mean anything

 

Idk what makes you think that, since Venu can win in a 1v1 against pory, umbreon, dusclops, while Gardevoir can be easily trapped like I said earlier
Also do you really think chansey is making special attackers unviable ? hard to deal with ?

 

yup that's what it is.

I said it was my opinion. You don't need Venu to beat those mons that are way more abusable than Chansey. Offensive Venu would not be as viable or needed if Chansey is not around.

Edit: In a faster paced metagame without Chansey, Venusaur Growth would have a more difficult time imo. I think Spec Venu would be more common.

Edited January 31, 2017 by gbwead

[Laz]

idk your arguments for a chansey ban, maybe i should give those pages some read to know why you want it banned so much.
Actually nevermind

[Gazelli]

1 hour ago, gbwead said:

That is possibly one of the worst argument imo since Growth Venusaur started appearing because of Chansey.

1

A tier council member should be encouraging members of the community to share their opinions, not discouraging it.

 

27 minutes ago, gbwead said:

I said it was my opinion. You don't need Venu to beat those mons that are way more abusable than Chansey. Offensive Venu would not be as viable or needed if Chansey is not around.

Edit: In a faster paced metagame without Chansey, Venusaur Growth would have a more difficult time imo. I think Spec Venu would be more common.

 

 

I don't see why Specs Venu would ever be used over life orb since you would be forced to make predictions between hidden power fire and sludge bomb vs things like Metagross and Skarm. Life orb means you still pack a hell of a punch, can swap up moves, and STILL recover the lost hp through Giga drain. In fact, specs Venu would make no sense. I'd like like to see you list any poke that can take sludge bombs repeatedly, not take damage from hidden power or giga, or not be set up on by growth. I don't think there is a single poke in the tier that can handle venu without difficulty. Chansey makes it so that you can run a variety of pokes without having to be overly concerned with venusaur and other special attackers. Remove Chansey, and most battles will be based on which team has a better advantage over the other. You also imply that venu needs set up to do anything (aka setting up on chansey ) , but life orb does a lot.

 

6 hours ago, OrangeManiac said:

I think the biggest contradiction with Chansey's presence is that it provides diversity in terms of archetypes but the downside is that it is as far from skillful playing as it can possibly get. I think the true skill of a player is determined when a player has to make some risk every turn they make. With Chansey, you don't. It's getting boring for knowing so easily when the Chansey switch is about to come because even the Chansey user does not seem to care even if they were predicted.

 

But what comes to "skill", it's a very subjective term in something like a Pokemon game and in order to argue something is skilless you really need some strong community consensus to reach that conclusion. I just don't think we have that.

 

Just because you have a safe switch, doesn't mean it's a bad thing, nor does it make the game itself "skilless". Having safe options to make has always been, is, and always will be part of the game. When you are already so limited in special walls capable of handling strong special attackers, I don't see why removing the most dominant special wall would make anything better. You make it seem like if you play offensively, you play with skill, but if you use walls, you lack skill. If you think a brainless meta where people spam special attackers is "skill", then perhaps your definition is flawed. 

 

To conclude, I feel it's not the tier itself that's the problem. It's the people playing the game that refuse to use anything other than chansey. Which is not a bad thing, it makes the tier more stable. And as we see in gen 7, landorus-T is literally on every other team. There is no harm in being reliant on one specific poke. But if you struggle to beat chansey knowing how common it is, despite there being numerous counters to it, you should probably reconsider what pokes you use. The ou tier with chansey is infinitely times better than an ou meta without chansey. 

[gbwead]

12 minutes ago, Gazelli said:

A tier council member should be encouraging members of the community to share their opinions, not discouraging it.

 

I don't see why Specs Venu would ever be used over life orb since you would be forced to make predictions between hidden power fire and sludge bomb vs things like Metagross and Skarm. Life orb means you still pack a hell of a punch, can swap up moves, and STILL recover the lost hp through Giga drain. In fact, specs Venu would make no sense. I'd like like to see you list any poke that can take sludge bombs repeatedly, not take damage from hidden power or giga, or not be set up on by growth. I don't think there is a single poke in the tier that can handle venu without difficulty. Chansey makes it so that you can run a variety of pokes without having to be overly concerned with venusaur and other special attackers. Remove Chansey, and most battles will be based on which team has a better advantage over the other. You also imply that venu needs set up to do anything (aka setting up on chansey ) , but life orb does a lot.

I simply think arguing that you need Chansey to deal with Venusaur makes 0 sense since Venu beats Chansey and became viable offensively because it could exploit Chansey's presence. I did not discourage Laz to share his opinion. I was just pointing out what I saw as a flaw in the reasoning. 

 

Venusaur needs Growth to wall break Chansey. I'm not saying Venusaur won't use Life Orb anymore, but that it would have little use for Growth if it doesn't have the opportunity to set up in a faster paced metagame. 

[Maelstrom]

5 hours ago, Tranzmaster said:

Twave sp def porygon 2 - Sp def arcanine - Crobat.

 

it is called Ninetales

[OrangeManiac]

2 hours ago, Gazelli said:

Just because you have a safe switch, doesn't mean it's a bad thing, nor does it make the game itself "skilless". Having safe options to make has always been, is, and always will be part of the game. When you are already so limited in special walls capable of handling strong special attackers, I don't see why removing the most dominant special wall would make anything better. You make it seem like if you play offensively, you play with skill, but if you use walls, you lack skill. If you think a brainless meta where people spam special attackers is "skill", then perhaps your definition is flawed. 

 

To conclude, I feel it's not the tier itself that's the problem. It's the people playing the game that refuse to use anything other than chansey. Which is not a bad thing, it makes the tier more stable. And as we see in gen 7, landorus-T is literally on every other team. There is no harm in being reliant on one specific poke. But if you struggle to beat chansey knowing how common it is, despite there being numerous counters to it, you should probably reconsider what pokes you use. The ou tier with chansey is infinitely times better than an ou meta without chansey. 

I understand that quotes in forum discussions aren't made to be directed at the poster but the community meaning most of the quote will be explaining one's own feelings about certain discussion topic but on this particular comment I have no idea why I was quoted in. You make it sound like I'm for banning Chansey while I don't think I could have possibly made it any more clear that with our current perception of what is a skill based metagame there is nothing skilless about Chansey. I was just explaining why I could see there possibly is and this makes you to make up your own imaginary definition of skillful play that you consider of me having, while I have at no point told what that definition would be. Just because I consider Chansey metagame possibly have too little risk in no way this results of me thinking that the more risk is always better. That is a strawman. This aside even though I agree with everything about Chansey's presence so far with you, saying that just because something has been some way forever means it needs to remain is not really how it should work. Status quo is the standard position yes but as much as the metagame evolves so does the community and what 2017s PokeMMO comp community considers virtuous is much different than what 2013s PokeMMO did.

Edited January 31, 2017 by OrangeManiac

[LuisPocho]

5 hours ago, Spaintakula said:

The problem isn't they suck cuz you don't see them. You don't see them cuz our players suck at creativity. That's deep

That "its the players" argument is getting old, we are not talking only about normal matchs or r1 in tournaments; we are not talking about players that dont like to play offensive, chansey is used by good creative players too... in mmo special sweepers are too weak, chansey is too strong, thats all

[Spaintakula]

2 hours ago, Maelstrom said:

it is called Ninetales

no you bonobo it's called rapidash, gosh

 

1 minute ago, LuisPocho said:

That "its the players" argument is getting old, we are not talking only about normal matchs or r1 in tournaments; we are not talking about players that dont like to play offensive, chansey is used by good creative players too... in mmo special sweepers are too weak, chansey is too strong, thats all

Just because it's getting old doesn't mean it suddenly lost it's truth. And we already know the whole special sweepers ain't that good blah blah, we just don't have diversity in bigger pokemon pool, which is something we're gonna be stuck around for a while it seems, thanks to mods, so yes, if there's clearly ways to deal with something, but very unusual, then it clearly speaks for itself chansey itself isn't just fucking unbeatable. It is the spawn of the very depths of hell itself, but not something that deserves to be uber in this metagame, atleast in my opinion

[LuisPocho]

15 minutes ago, Spaintakula said:

no you bonobo it's called rapidash, gosh

 

Just because it's getting old doesn't mean it suddenly lost it's truth. And we already know the whole special sweepers ain't that good blah blah, we just don't have diversity in bigger pokemon pool, which is something we're gonna be stuck around for a while it seems, thanks to mods, so yes, if there's clearly ways to deal with something, but very unusual, then it clearly speaks for itself chansey itself isn't just fucking unbeatable. It is the spawn of the very depths of hell itself, but not something that deserves to be uber in this metagame, atleast in my opinion

 Its old AND false.. those gimmicks chansey counters are not even that good against chansey and can only work if totally unspected, thats why they are not very used, not because players "lack imagination" (yeah, because psychic/cm/taunt/recover zam is very creative and viable)
 

[Spaintakula]

Just now, LuisPocho said:

 Its old AND false.. those gimmicks chansey counters are not even that good against chansey and can only work if totally unspected, thats why they are not very used, not because players "lack imagination" (yeah, because psychic/cm/taunt/recover zam is very creative and viable)
 

Creative, maybe, viable, yes if you can make it viable. It's all about you being able to bring what's considered non-viable, viable. And that's what I think you don't get completely. Also, we play in a generation where team preview isn't a thing, so "totally unexpected" should be everyone's main tool to win a battle, everyone's strong side and not use "but it only works if your enemy doesn't know it. Guess what, unless you're dumb and you bring what's supposed to be your lategame cleaner in turn 2, then it is fucking unexpected. I might be too harsh to say our players lack imagination, while I do believe some really do lack it, most just don't have enough materials to work with, which again, is what we all know already.

[xilias]

1 minute ago, Spaintakula said:

Creative, maybe, viable, yes if you can make it viable. It's all about you being able to bring what's considered non-viable, viable. And that's what I think you don't get completely. Also, we play in a generation where team preview isn't a thing, so "totally unexpected" should be everyone's main tool to win a battle, everyone's strong side and not use "but it only works if your enemy doesn't know it. Guess what, unless you're dumb and you bring what's supposed to be your lategame cleaner in turn 2, then it is fucking unexpected. I might be too harsh to say our players lack imagination, while I do believe some really do lack it, most just don't have enough materials to work with, which again, is what we all know already.

hey,I always lead using linoone

[LuisPocho]

7 minutes ago, Spaintakula said:

It's all about you being able to bring what's considered non-viable, viable.

man, thats deep
 

now, I dont remember why we even have tiers

[pachima]

19 minutes ago, Spaintakula said:

Creative, maybe, viable, yes if you can make it viable. It's all about you being able to bring what's considered non-viable, viable. And that's what I think you don't get completely. Also, we play in a generation where team preview isn't a thing, so "totally unexpected" should be everyone's main tool to win a battle, everyone's strong side and not use "but it only works if your enemy doesn't know it. Guess what, unless you're dumb and you bring what's supposed to be your lategame cleaner in turn 2, then it is fucking unexpected. I might be too harsh to say our players lack imagination, while I do believe some really do lack it, most just don't have enough materials to work with, which again, is what we all know already.

 

I second this guy

[LuisPocho]

3 minutes ago, pachima said:

I second this guy

Persian new chansey counter confirmed

[Draekyn]

1 hour ago, Spaintakula said:

we just don't have diversity in bigger pokemon pool, which is something we're gonna be stuck around for a while it seems, thanks to mods devs

devs have fucked up priorities, @tier council give up on balance until they figure their shit out

[pachima]

22 minutes ago, LuisPocho said:

Persian new chansey counter confirmed

it even has limber ez

[Spaintakula]

1 hour ago, LuisPocho said:

man, thats deep
 

now, I dont remember why we even have tiers

because OU is filled with only 6 pokemon

1 hour ago, Draekyn said:

devs have fucked up priorities, @tier council give up on balance until they figure their shit out

yeah I always mix those two up

[Erayne]

1 hour ago, LuisPocho said:

 Its old AND false.. those gimmicks chansey counters are not even that good against chansey and can only work if totally unspected, thats why they are not very used, not because players "lack imagination" (yeah, because psychic/cm/taunt/recover zam is very creative and viable)
 

Lmao tell me how a trick specs starmie/alakazam is bad. Even if you know they have trick, you cant just switch anything against them since if they don't trick they really hurt a lot. Same for growth jolteon/venusaur: they're totally good options even without chansey. Don't bring up that rubbish zam, there are so many better options that i've already listed, and you guys are just ignoring only because you don't like chansey. If you really want to ban it find another reason like the cancer play it promotes, because it's definitely not uber worthy.

[suigin]

1 minute ago, Erayne said:

Lmao tell me how a trick specs starmie/alakazam is bad. Even if you know they have trick, you cant just switch anything against them since if they don't trick they really hurt a lot. Same for growth jolteon/venusaur: they're totally good options even without chansey. Don't bring up that rubbish zam, there are so many better options that i've already listed, and you guys are just ignoring only because you don't like chansey. If you really want to ban it find another reason like the cancer play it promotes, because it's definitely not uber worthy.

If your trick doesn't nail Chansey the one time it's used you lose whatever chance that psychic pokemon had of nailing Chansey. If someone sends out a Choiced Metagross instead you die to Pursuit.  Again the whole Trick thing can be used to nail Blissey too so there's no point in having it in Uber.

Also I made a massive post tackling your "many better options" that you listed most of which are flawed and don't really nail Chansey, and if they do then they can't nail any other common check, plus they need a minimum of 3 turns (or more) to set up and if have 3 free turns to spare you can set up many better win conditions.

Any special attacker that can """"""""work""""""""" against Chansey can likely """"""""work""""""""" the same way against Blissey so there's no point in having her banned

[Gunthug]

2 minutes ago, suigin said:

If your trick doesn't nail Chansey the one time it's used you lose whatever chance that psychic pokemon had of nailing Chansey. If someone sends out a Choiced Metagross instead you die to Pursuit.  Again the whole Trick thing can be used to nail Blissey too so there's no point in having it in Uber.

Also I made a massive post tackling your "many better options" that you listed most of which are flawed and don't really nail Chansey, and if they do then they can't nail any other common check, plus they need a minimum of 3 turns (or more) to set up and if have 3 free turns to spare you can set up many better win conditions.

Any special attacker that can """"""""work""""""""" against Chansey can likely """"""""work""""""""" the same way against Blissey so there's no point in having her banned

Not even saying I disagree with you, but there's no reason to discuss blissey's ban in this thread really. Notwithstanding the fact that the ban was completely out of the tier council's hands, chansey can and should be evaluated on her own merits. Nothing said in this thread will lead to blissey being unbanned, that's not what we're discussing