OU Tier Discussion Request Thread

[Doctor]

14 minutes ago, caioxlive13 said:

yea, surely a 6,7% roll might make something broken. I give the same argument that was given back when it was banned: Gallade is not a mon supposed to be walled. Is a mon that you should outoffense to win. Also, gallade isn't exactly splashable like other mons there such as scizor, and is extremelly prone to hazard chip due to it being switched back and forth due to scarf sets. And no, the others i won't bring to the table because i don't need to, since w/o scarf, gallade still has to switch a lot because most teams except fat balanceds , stalls and frags teams-alike, has 3 to 4 mons able to outspeed it.(A gallade theorically cannot switch in on my team if aren't scarf, because Scizor hits it with Priority and everything else are faster than him. ) Gallade isn't exactly broken due to how our meta are right now. You need to outoffense it to win and 60~70% of the teams can, because they're Bulky Offenses, Climatic, or Hyper Offense.  

Yes, a 6,7% can make something broken if it turns a 3HKO into a 2HKO, making it impossible to switch into.

[gbwead]

7 hours ago, caioxlive13 said:

Want to ask what happened to gallade suddently be broken now. 

14 minutes ago, caioxlive13 said:

Gallade isn't exactly broken due to how our meta are right now. 

You're asking a question, but you're unwilling to accept the answers given to you because you feel you know better. You're not looking for answers, you're looking for people to argue with. If you already know the answers to your own questions, stop wasting our time. 

 

[RysPicz]

1 hour ago, gbwead said:

You're asking a question, but you're unwilling to accept the answers given to you because you feel you know better. You're not looking for answers, you're looking for people to argue with. If you already know the answers to your own questions, stop wasting our time. 

 

You literally just summed up his entire existence on forums in one post. Props, GB, props.

[caioxlive13]

1 hour ago, gbwead said:

You're asking a question, but you're unwilling to accept the answers given to you because you feel you know better. You're not looking for answers, you're looking for people to argue with. If you already know the answers to your own questions, stop wasting our time. 

 

I'm asking to the people who claimed that 1,5x gallade broken why they think that are broken. I believe that is not, but this is my opinion. I'm curious on knowing what've changed from the 6,7% rolls, what mons are now killable with those rolls, that suddently maked gallade from utter garbage to a offensive-uber. I'm asking that because those people didn't send a consistent argument, with calcs and etc, to comprove their point. Doc argued that a 3HKO could turn into a 2HKO, that's not entirely true. A 6,7% difference is not enough for turn a sure 3HKO to a sure 2HKO. Max it could do is turn a guarranteed 3HKO into a roll, a chance for 2HKO and i even risk to say that the chance could sit below 35% in those particular cases. 

Edited February 13 by caioxlive13

[Laughs]

How is dugtrio arena trap not banned is mind boggling. Guessing most of the council play the dumb dugtrio stall teams?

Sure is nice when one play style that has been around in competitive mons forever (sand) is unplayable in this game because of one mon that plague high ladder.

Not to mention one of the very few counters to volcarona (another mon that heavily limit team building in this meta due to so few counters being available) is almost unplayble due to this one mon.

 

Why are we limiting the meta so much by keeping this unhealthy play style? This game has by far the worst meta of any pokemon mmos right now and it's obvious why.

[gbwead]

 

 

Top 6 in usage (16.59%)

51.17% win rate

 

1 hour ago, Laughs said:

(sand) is unplayable

 

[Huargensy]

Just use tyranitar shed shell

 

[caioxlive13]

24 minutes ago, Huargensy said:

Just use tyranitar shed shell

 

And pass from "Reliable answer to Volcarona" to "Volcarona Check, that has to be careful about bug buzzes on Switch-in."

[Doctor]

Volcarona being complained about and called unhealthy for the meta surely is the last thing I expected to read but oh well here we are

 

You know what also happens to be an amazing Volcarona counter?

Edited March 4 by Doctor
trio trio trio

[FlacuSkye]

4 hours ago, Doctor said:

You know what also happens to be an amazing Volcarona counter?

erm actually dugtrio is a check

[Doctor]

2 hours ago, FlacuSkye said:

erm actually dugtrio is a check

☝️🤓 hope you can find it in your heart to forgive me for mistakenly using the wrong term when trying to be a jokester, a clown if you may, for my fellow PokeMMO friends and peers

[RysPicz]

4 hours ago, Doctor said:

☝️🤓 hope you can find it in your heart to forgive me for mistakenly using the wrong term when trying to be a jokester, a clown if you may, for my fellow PokeMMO friends and peers

there is no forgiving in MMO, I thereby sentence you to 5 years in the same cell with Caio

14 hours ago, Laughs said:

How is dugtrio arena trap not banned is mind boggling. Guessing most of the council play the dumb dugtrio stall teams?

Sure is nice when one play style that has been around in competitive mons forever (sand) is unplayable in this game because of one mon that plague high ladder.

Not to mention one of the very few counters to volcarona (another mon that heavily limit team building in this meta due to so few counters being available) is almost unplayble due to this one mon.

 

Why are we limiting the meta so much by keeping this unhealthy play style? This game has by far the worst meta of any pokemon mmos right now and it's obvious why.

Nah they don't really play that boring stall team. Regardless, while I agree that Dugtrio should disappear, you can't really say that it makes sand unplayable with Tyranitar being one of the top usage pokes. I'm unsure about which mon are you talking about when you mention that it's a counter to Volcarona though, because if it's Ttar, then I would never list it as a counter.

And I agree- PokeMMO OU is the most disgusting metagame I have ever seen across all the generations and metagames I played, on par with VGC 16.

[TohnR]

29 minutes ago, RysPicz said:

And I agree- PokeMMO OU is the most disgusting metagame I have ever seen across all the generations and metagames I played, on par with VGC 16.

This is why wise people play in lower tiers 🙂 (actually they are not any better 😭)

Jokes aside I'm not sure Dugtrio would make the meta disgusting by itself tho, surely there are other issues to tackle, so I wonder how come it takes so long to get rid of the mole when it seems like there is a consensus in the community for disallowing it 😕 

Edited March 5 by TohnR

[caioxlive13]

2 hours ago, TohnR said:

 

Jokes aside I'm not sure Dugtrio would make the meta disgusting by itself tho, surely there are other issues to tackle, so I wonder how come it takes so long to get rid of the mole when it seems like there is a consensus in the community for disallowing it 😕 

That came from years and a lot of tournaments there bans trapping abilitys. Grand Slam and iirc OUVitational banned them already? Anyways, is not the first time when a mon is clearly broken and the TC just doesn't want to ban them. Crawdaunt is the same thing, broken as f*** in UU(Only Poliwrath and Toxicroak switchs in all moves, most rely on predicts to not die on switch-in.) , and with Weather it just maked it worse, both Sun and Rain benefits from Crawdaunt. And yes, Sun benefits, not from using it but from having it on meta, since using their counters on your team forces a 5v6 vs Sun. Rain is self-explanatory, Crabhammers now hit a whole new level of power.

[Laughs]

19 hours ago, gbwead said:

 

 

Top 6 in usage (16.59%)

51.17% win rate

 

 

Doesn't say much when most of the Ttar users are stall players doing scarf ttar stall. AV TTar has a place in the meta despite being deadweight against any dugtrio teams (hence why you barely see it once you reach 800s) because of how well it counters certain meta threats. Now a sand team using excadrill? You've got two deadweight mons vs dugtrio stall, good luck getting any wins when half the top 100 are running dugtrio.

 

Shed shell work until you realize what's the point of using TTar now that it turn from a counter to a shaky check to other popular mons like volcarona.

 

17 hours ago, Doctor said:

Volcarona being complained about and called unhealthy for the meta surely is the last thing I expected to read but oh well here we are

 

You know what also happens to be an amazing Volcarona counter?

Volcarona is unhealthy for this meta game not because it doesn't have hard counters but because when paired with dugtrio, it has so few of them, it limit team building so much. Since we don't have heatran, most volcarona run hpice, eliminating a huge amount of regular counters that other metas have. 

Dragonite, (non-scarf) garchomp, latios, heatran, lando, even toxic gliscor are all OU staple mons that would normally shut down volcarona. They don't in this game because heatran isn't there (yet?) or they're not in the game yet. We're left with either having one of the few scarfer that can outspeed and check it after a boost or :

- toxic chansey

- AV TTar

- AV Mienshao

- tentacruel

- Empoleon

- Roar suicune

- SPdef zapdos with toxic

- SPdef mandibuzz with toxic

- hippowdown

- other niche AV mons

If you play bulky offense or balance then you'd see how limiting volcarona is to the meta especially since it's being paired with dugtrio now limiting this list even more. I don't feel like running chansey on every team I make just to be able to survive dugtrio + volcarona core (and then auto lose when it's safeguard anyway lol). I'm not saying ban volcarona if that's not clear i'm saying ban dugtrio and hopefully we get more volcarona checks in the future because even without dugtrio it would still be a very meta limiting mon right now.

[gbwead]

29 minutes ago, Laughs said:

Doesn't say much when most of the Ttar users are stall players doing scarf ttar stall. 

30 minutes ago, Laughs said:

hence why you barely see [AV TTar] once you reach 800s

You present these statements as facts when they are clearly not. Ttar remains very viable over 800s and in tournaments. Ttar is also played outside of stall teams, actually stall is most likely the playstyle that uses TTar the least.

 

 

 

34 minutes ago, Laughs said:

Now a sand team using excadrill? You've got two deadweight mons vs dugtrio stall, good luck getting any wins when half the top 100 are running dugtrio.

It's not because Dugtrio can ruin Magcargo that Magcargo is not played more in OU. There are many many reasons why Magcargo is not played more in OU and the same goes with Excadrill Sand Rush. 

 

 

45 minutes ago, Laughs said:

Volcarona is unhealthy for this meta game not because it doesn't have hard counters but because when paired with dugtrio

As for this, Volcarona + Dugtrio is not unhealthy. There are plenty of answers to Volcarona in OU that do not fear Dugtrio:

• Dugtrio itself
• Defensive or Offensive Dragonite Multiscale (still works vs hp ice)
• Chansey / Blissey
• Gyarados
• Rain Teams (Pelipper + w.e)
• Garchomp Scarf
• AV Gallade
• Conkeldurr
• Chandelure
• Mienshao Scarf or AV
• Mandibuzz

You can also play plenty of lower tier mons that will also deal with Volcarona, I was just listing the ones in OU not weak to Dugtrio.

 

[Laughs]

32 minutes ago, gbwead said:

You present these statements as facts when they are clearly not. Ttar remains very viable over 800s and in tournaments. Ttar is also played outside of stall teams, actually stall is most likely the playstyle that uses TTar the least.

 

 

 

It's not because Dugtrio can ruin Magcargo that Magcargo is not played more in OU. There are many many reasons why Magcargo is not played more in OU and the same goes with Excadrill Sand Rush. 

 

 

As for this, Volcarona + Dugtrio is not unhealthy. There are plenty of answers to Volcarona in OU that do not fear Dugtrio:

• Dugtrio itself
• Defensive or Offensive Dragonite Multiscale (still works vs hp ice)
• Chansey / Blissey
• Gyarados
• Rain Teams (Pelipper + w.e)
• Garchomp Scarf
• AV Gallade
• Conkeldurr
• Chandelure
• Mienshao Scarf or AV
• Mandibuzz

You can also play plenty of lower tier mons that will also deal with Volcarona, I was just listing the ones in OU not weak to Dugtrio.

 

Magcargo has never been a OU mon while sand rush excadrill has been part of OU since it was introduced. Nice strawman?

 

As for the volcarona discussion, i'm glad you can list almost the same things I did. Unhealthy and having counters/checks aren't the same thing. Like I said, you are forced to run one of these very few counters if you don't want to auto lose to volcarona. Smogon has banned volcarona in the past and is considering doing a suspect test for it's current meta and guess what? Their meta have more answers to it than ours. Again, my issue is with dugtrio making this list even smaller, volcarona was just an example of what it enables to unhealthy levels.

 

[Doctor]

40 minutes ago, Laughs said:

Magcargo has never been a OU mon while sand rush excadrill has been part of OU since it was introduced. Nice strawman?

What is this even supposed to mean? Excadrill has been an OU staple for the longest time, even with Dugtrio around. Why are you so adamant on insisting it's not viable at all? It has a 9-12% usage throughout the past 5 months, and has been spammed in Sand teams long before Mold Breaker was introduced for it.

 

40 minutes ago, Laughs said:

Unhealthy and having counters/checks aren't the same thing.

Pretty much is if said counters and checks constitute a quarter of the metagame and also happen to counter and check more stuff so you're not including them JUST to counter Volcarona. Unless "unhealthy" here means "I lose to it", you can have a not well thought out team and of course you will lose to very common threats in the metagame. Has nothing to do with Volcarona itself, there are many teams that straight up lose to Mamoswine for example and it doesn't make Mamo an unhealthy mon. Can't win them all.

 

40 minutes ago, Laughs said:

Like I said, you are forced to run one of these very few counters if you don't want to auto lose to volcarona.

How is a literal 1/4th of the OU metagame "very few counters"? Not even taking into account mons that by usage are in UU. "If you don't want to lose to Volcarona you have to use at least one mon from this list that constitutes an entire quarter of the meta" is not an argument.

 

40 minutes ago, Laughs said:

Smogon has banned volcarona in the past

No they haven't. If you're referring to the SV OU metagame, as if it were remotely comparable to ours and not taking into account Terastalize for whatever reason, Gliscor got banned before Indigo Disk dropped as well. Guess we should also ban Gliscor since it got banned in a generation that is not relevant at all to our metagame.

Edited March 5 by Doctor

[Laughs]

5 minutes ago, Doctor said:

What is this even supposed to mean? Excadrill has been an OU staple for the longest time, even with Dugtrio around. Why are you so adamant on insisting it's not viable at all? It has a 9-12% usage throughout the past 5 months, and has been spammed in Sand teams long before Mold Breaker was introduced for it.

 

Pretty much is if said counters and checks constitute a quarter of the metagame and also happen to counter and check more stuff so you're not including them JUST to counter Volcarona. Unless "unhealthy" here means "I lose to it", you can have a not well thought out team and of course you will lose to very common threats in the metagame. Has nothing to do with Volcarona itself, there are many teams that straight up lose to Mamoswine for example and it doesn't make Mamo an unhealthy mon. Can't win them all.

 

How is a literal 1/4th of the OU metagame "very few counters"? Not even taking into account mons that by usage are in UU. "If you don't want to lose to Volcarona you have to use at least one mon from this list that constitutes an entire quarter of the meta" is not an argument.

 

No they haven't. If you're referring to the SV OU metagame, as if it were remotely comparable to ours and not taking into account Terastalize for whatever reason, Gliscor got banned before Indigo Disk dropped as well. Guess we should also ban Gliscor since it got banned in a generation that is not relevant at all to our metagame.

How often do you even see sand rush drill? 9-12% usage when 95% of it is mold breaker.

 

You keep bringing volcarona as a standalone mon when I clearly and only been using it as an example when used with dugtrio.

My point isn't that a quarter of the metagame checks volcarona making it unhealthy, it's that when dugtrio is paired with a mon like volcarona then almost all it's counters don't work anymore. TTar doesn't work anymore, AV gallade will get trapped, same with AV mienshao etc. You can stop trying to spin this into a volcarona ban, this isn't what we're talking about.

[gbwead]

1 hour ago, Laughs said:

Magcargo has never been a OU mon while sand rush excadrill has been part of OU since it was introduced. Nice strawman?

So what? Milotic was OU, one year ago. Should we go out of our way to make it viable again? No. It doesn't matter if Excadrill Sand Rush was relevant now, 1 year ago, 10 years ago. Who cares? 

 

1 hour ago, Laughs said:

As for the volcarona discussion, i'm glad you can list almost the same things I did. Unhealthy and having counters/checks aren't the same thing. Like I said, you are forced to run one of these very few counters if you don't want to auto lose to volcarona. Smogon has banned volcarona in the past and is considering doing a suspect test for it's current meta and guess what? Their meta have more answers to it than ours. Again, my issue is with dugtrio making this list even smaller, volcarona was just an example of what it enables to unhealthy levels.

You are forced to run things, you would normally play anyways. I'm sorry that doesn't sound like unhealthy. There are plenty of arguments as to why Dugtrio should be banned. The argument that it makes stuff unhealthy like Volcarona and Togekiss (in the past) has never been weaker.

If you want to argue that Dugtrio is unhealthy, you need to argue that there are numerous mons that would be very healthy for OU but are unviable to a significant degree because of Dugtrio. Tyranitar has not been shown to be healthy for OU or unviable in OU because of Dugtrio, so that would be an awful example. 

 

Excadrill Sand Rush is a good start. However, why is that mon healthy for OU exactly? Dugtrio might be one of the reasons why Excadrill Sand Rush is not viable, but Excadrill has way bigger problems than Dugtrio in the OU meta (Gliscor / Rotom-W).

 

You would imo make a stronger case as to why Dugtrio is unhealthy by looking at mons like Tentacruel, Toxicroak, Empoleon, Ninetales, Nidoking, Nidoqueen or Raikou by explaining why such mons would be healthy for our meta, but can't be played for the most part because of Dugtrio. For instance, you could say: ''Amoongus is cancer, Rain teams are a plague, Volcarona is problematic, Tentacruel would help vs all these archetypes, but unfortunetly Tentacruel is meh in OU mainly because of Dugtrio. Tentacruel is also punished by mons like Ferrothorn, but since Tentacruel can be naturally paired with Magnezone, those weaknesses can be dealt with during teambuilding. However, since Magnezone is also weak to Dugtrio, there is simply no viable way to play Tentacruel competitively right now.'' This is just an example. I don't believe half of what I just said (Magnezone is not particularly healthy imo, I don't think Volcarona or Rain teams are problematic), but that's how you could show Dugtrio as unhealthy in PokeMMO by doing that with multiple mons relevant to multiple playstyles.

 

1 hour ago, Laughs said:

Smogon has banned volcarona in the past and is considering doing a suspect test for it's current meta and guess what? Their meta have more answers to it than ours. Again, my issue is with dugtrio making this list even smaller, volcarona was just an example of what it enables to unhealthy levels.

No one cares what Smogon did. Their decisions (good or bad) mean nothing in PokeMMOs metas and certainly do not set any precedent we need to follow or recognize.

 

Edited March 5 by gbwead

[Doctor]

>mentions how volcarona is unhealthy

>mentions how it was banned by smogon

 

22 minutes ago, Laughs said:

You can stop trying to spin this into a volcarona ban, this isn't what we're talking about.

my fault, next time I'll focus on not pointing out the wrong arguments I guess

[Laughs]

5 minutes ago, Doctor said:

>mentions how volcarona is unhealthy

>mentions how it was banned by smogon

 

my fault, next time I'll focus on not pointing out the wrong arguments I guess

> mentions how volcarona is unhealthy when paired with dugtrio after talking about banning dugtrio.

> gives an example of another meta banning volcarona as an example of a mon having checks and counters that can still be considered unhealthy for a metagame.

[Doctor]

2 hours ago, Laughs said:

> mentions how volcarona is unhealthy when paired with dugtrio after talking about banning dugtrio.

> gives an example of another meta banning volcarona as an example of a mon having checks and counters that can still be considered unhealthy for a metagame.

You got proven how Volcarona is indeed not unhealthy even when paired with Dugtrio. You gave an example of a completely different meta with a devastating mechanic in the form of Terastalize banning a 135 base special attack, 100 base speed Pokémon with access to Quiver Dance banning it THEN unbanning it. Like gb said, there are many arguments to be had about Dugtrio, it enabling other Pokémon certainly isn't one of them as was already extensively proven and discussed in the Dugtrio ban discussion thread. But sure, Dugtrio should be banned because Tera Blast Ground/Water/Fairy Tera Type Volcarona hits hard in SV OU.

Edited March 5 by Doctor
derped and said volca is not healthy whoooops

[Munya]

I feel like we are starting to stray a little too far from the topic of MMOs OU, lets reel it in some. 

[Laughs]

We're just going to disagree on dugtrio enabling other mons not being an issue and I don't see any arguments in the other thread that would make this a fact. To me, that with the other issues of it making a lot of mons deadweight in the tier (with no counter play) is a recipe for an unhealthy metagame. What exactly are we losing by banning dugtrio from OU other than the gimmick of arena trap + magic bounce with a sweeper (used to be togekiss and now mostly volcarona since zapdos is a thing)? If anything, we'd be gaining so much more team building options.

 

Anyway, done talking about this here

 

53 minutes ago, Doctor said:

You got proven how Volcarona is indeed not healthy even when paired with Dugtrio. You gave an example of a completely different meta with a devastating mechanic in the form of Terastalize banning a 135 base special attack, 100 base speed Pokémon with access to Quiver Dance banning it THEN unbanning it. Like gb said, there are many arguments to be had about Dugtrio, it enabling other Pokémon certainly isn't one of them as was already extensively proven and discussed in the Dugtrio ban discussion thread. But sure, Dugtrio should be banned because Tera Blast Ground/Water/Fairy Tera Type Volcarona hits hard in SV OU.

Again, I used smogon as an example of another meta deciding a mon was unhealthy despite it having multiple checks and counters. Someone pointed out that volcarona + dugtrio was fine and couldn't be unhealthy because it had checks and counters. I'm saying that it having counters can still make it unhealthy when it limits team building. Volcarona was banned in early SV despite not being top 10 usage and having counters because of this.