Debate: PokeMMO become Pay to Win or No

[jhonesath]

1 hour ago, razimove said:

Farming or not, how long will you take today, if you started fresh today, to afford a skull with grinding methods, vs some random that just swipes a couple thousand dollars and buys it shortly after? The game is and always was p2w by the definition, especially after they introduced vouchers.

 

With that said, you can play the entire game without spending a dime, and you'll be more than fine, maybe competitively wise you are at a big disadvantage early on, but thats about it.

The point of playing the game, of course for having fun, but we agree that we aims to WIN right? Thats why there's a term pay2WIN game and play2WIN game. Every term have word "WIN" at the end, shows that we all aims to WIN.

 

The question now, do we still can WIN in pokemmo without paying with irl money? For me, yes. So i just be simple, and said that pokemmo is not pay2WIN game.

 

But yes, i know that, we all players, have different WIN condition. For me, WIN is not abt cosmetics like a skull etc, its not about time also. My WIN condition is simply i can beat other player with the best streak in pvp. I dont really care abt time. I dont really care abt lure-thing, i can easily farm, get 1M-2M and buy 4/5 x 31 right-nature pokemon. For others, WIN condition is gain something faster from, so times are matter for them. With this being said, we know that different WIN condition make we have a different definiton about what pay2WIN is.

 

I'll just stick in my pay2WIN definition, bcs again, i have my own WIN condition, and i can reach my WIN condition without paying, thats why im consider pokemmo not a pay2WIN game. If your WIN condition is gain something faster than everyone, then its make sense if you consider pokemmo as pay2WIN.

 

So i understand if some people say pokemmo as pay2WIN game. Bcs we're having a different WIN condition after all. At the end, we need agree to disagree.

[YumiJerza]

Personally I think like a lot of people, for me PokeMMO has taken the path of pay to win for a long time, whether with vanities at the price of a car (no joke).
But at least it was only optional decoration, currently it's a whole different story since the lure system directly impacts the game whether it's in the hunt for Pokemon...
We can say goodbye to the random encounters of starters when we start (the little surprise effect that makes you smile), we can also say goodbye to the encounters of certain random rare pokemon..
I think PokeMMO has taken a step down the road that doesn't look good at all.
If the people who do not want this system do not show their dissatisfaction namely by a petition or numerous requests as soon as possible, it will be too late.
The PokeMMO that we knew will sink more and more into the pay to win.
To better make people accept a system, the best solution is to put this system in place little by little.
Here, it's a small detail (the decoys), but small accumulated details form a huge impact.
I have always greatly respected the work of the developers, that's why I don't want this game to be destroyed.
Whether we want to admit it or not, players will stop playing little by little if this continues.
React now all the PokeMMO fans who do not agree with this system 🙂

[JuanJoseC]

To answer the question:

No, the game is not pay2win

[MadaraSixSix]

yo all
for me it's not a pay to win

because personally I have never put the slightest euro in the game
and I come to win ^^

 

I would even say that it is the perfect game!

Edited December 28, 2022 by MadaraSixSix

[OGQT]

55 minutes ago, MadaraSixSix said:

yo all
for me it's not a pay to win

because personally I have never put the slightest euro in the game
and I come to win ^^

 

I would even say that it is the perfect game!

I have spent money on the game but I have had literally no advantage except I kept my mental sanity. I spent that money go breed my comps, and I'm still ass at PvP, so yeah it's not Pay2Win or else I'd be Top Ladder in OU by now kek

[Poufilou]

8 hours ago, SacredDiver said:

You can call it a downgrade in that sense, but is it a "horrible msitake"? I wouldn't say so. I'm not really "defending" the fact that starters aren't available for free as they used to be (Shoot, could've spent that precious 600$ on a Great Ball instead, what a scam.), I just don't see how it's supposed to be this big scheme that's being used as an excuse to "do a cash grab" when Lures aren't exclusive to the gift shop. I don't see the big "paywall" that the starters are supposed to be behind when I can just buy a cheap lure and encounter one faster than before for a small price. I'm rather defending the Lure feature as a whole and not the detail that starters are Lure-exclusive, the feature does "actually add something" by making you encounter some Pokémon in more locations with a Lure (not just the Lure-exclusives). It actually adds something when it comes to starters too since not only is it faster to get starters but they're also available in more locations (Second stages of evolution replaced the previous locations and first stages are available in different locations.). Charmander can be caught as early as Route 3 and Bulbasaur as early as Viridian Forest now, if that isn't "awesome and interactive" then I don't know what is. Only issue I see with it is shunting starters in the wild not costing 0$ anymore.

I don't think it's a mistake, introducing an item to get more encounters and get new spawns is fine and encourage more single hunting. 

 

But Lure is effectively a "paywall", not in the sense that players will have difficulty to climb it or not, but you do unnecessary pay for something that should be free and climb the wall every time since encountering and catching pokemon is the most basic thing in this game. 

 

It does have a meaning to "cash grab" because people who are hunting starters are always rich af since they usually go for egg hunting. Premium Lure will only be bought by these players since it's absolutely not worth it for anyone else. This Lure thing benefit these players and casual people who were single hunting starters now have no other choice than to pay for it (it's not gonna be cheap). 

 

None of this would be an issue if they kept wild locations without Lure. 

[jhonesath]

2 hours ago, MadaraSixSix said:

yo all
for me it's not a pay to win

because personally I have never put the slightest euro in the game
and I come to win ^^

 

I would even say that it is the perfect game!

Agree. Pokemmo is "nearly" perfect. Back then in 2018, im playing "unofficial" pokemon game called evolv3 leg3nd, and they selling legendary pokemon like Darkrai, Lugia, etc. with irl money. Premium player can easily win the pvp, also having an ultimate gear (soul dew in Latias/Latios, for example) that regular player can't access.

 

In the end, their server closed lol. Thankfully, 2 years playing that game, i never spent anything except my time.

 

We all do hoping that pokemmo never take this way. My experience being a regular player in "real pay2win" game like evolv3 leg3nd, making this "lure-thing" in pokemmo become nothing, tbh.

[caioxlive13]

Okay, let's end discussion:

PokéMMO can be considered partially Pay-To-Win, due to the fact that it speeds ups the process to get pokémons. But have a full team of 5x31 Shinys comps don't give to you a really objective advantage over players that use a entire team of 2x31 4x25+, because skills matter also. Even some 6x15 could be used on PvP, and on side note, i reached for the first time in veteran having a 6x15 docile Volcarona on team. 

Let's suppose that we have a Gate for the sucess, and a grassy path before it. A pay-to-win game usually gives to you the key only paying real money. PokéMMO hide the keys on grass and only give to p2w player a X-Ray to find key easily. But a common player can search the key without him, and can find. Both can reach on sucess, obviously the player that pays go more easily to him, but common players can reach in there too. 

[SacredDiver]

3 hours ago, Poufilou said:

I don't think it's a mistake, introducing an item to get more encounters and get new spawns is fine and encourage more single hunting. 

 

But Lure is effectively a "paywall", not in the sense that players will have difficulty to climb it or not, but you do unnecessary pay for something that should be free and climb the wall every time since encountering and catching pokemon is the most basic thing in this game. 

 

It does have a meaning to "cash grab" because people who are hunting starters are always rich af since they usually go for egg hunting. Premium Lure will only be bought by these players since it's absolutely not worth it for anyone else. This Lure thing benefit these players and casual people who were single hunting starters now have no other choice than to pay for it (it's not gonna be cheap). 

 

None of this would be an issue if they kept wild locations without Lure. 

That's the thing, the reason I don't see it that way is that the only means of getting more starters in the original games is through breeding (or trading with someone who only got one starter in their game as well), the current breeding system obviously doesn't allow for that. Rotom is a unique encounter in the Old Chateau TV and Togepi is only available through the Poké Radar, which I don't think a lot of people would prefer over Lures.
Them being available in the wild isn't something basic that has been removed with the Lure feature. Like I said they're not supposed to be wild encounters in the first place. It's rather that instead of having people spam-create characters and trade their starters to their mains, it was changed from a simplistic added feature of just making them regular wild encounters to a mechanic that speeds up the process compared to before and adds more locations too (to the starters).

 

I would honestly call it a "paypebble" rather than a "paywall" given how utterly insignificant the price of those lures is. It makes zero sense to me that anyone would be bothered by the fact that they would be paying the price of a great ball to encounter a starter now.

 

If it had a meaning of "cash-grabbing" like you're saying then this is certainly not a very smart way to go about it. If the goal is to "cash-grab" rich people who usually go for eggs, you don't limit yourself to Pokémon that can't originally be normally encountered in the wild, you also include other rares that are sought after by those rich people. You don't put the lures in Pokémarts because regardless of the price, real money donations would be required to get them into circulation if they're exclusive to the gift shop. You make it more viable to use the Premium Lures continuously in the long run.
You make it actually worth it to do all of your hundreds of thousands of single encounters with those Premium Lures for the Lure-exclusives instead of egg hunting because a measly "+3%" rate increase and more frequent encounters are very far from convincing at that price when you also make it clear as day that you're gonna get more bang for your buck with the cheaper affordable option that does not require any real money.

I find it truly amusing to see "casual" and "single-shunting starters" in the same sentence. Whether you're rich or poor, provided that you're not a sadist, egg hunting is always gonna be more efficient than single encounters on starters because unless you get incredibly lucky, it's gonna take you on average 20 shinies for one of them to be the starter that you're after. I would imagine that those casual people would have a more "casual" reaction to this feature rather than being extremely bothered by the fact that they are not going to get that lucky 1/30k*20 encounter for free anymore. I see the removal of these species specifically and not the other rares more as an act of balancing rather than a big "cash-grabbing" scheme, other rares can still be encountered without Lures just like before.

I really don't find that the game has strayed away from those overpriced luxuries that we already had with donator status and shiny charms by introducing the Lures feature, that "pay-to-win" aspect isn't any different from before.

Edited December 28, 2022 by SacredDiver

[Medjed]

I enjoyed my almost 4k hours and 2 years of single encounter shunting shroomish, now that I can pay to find 2x/3x hordes Im ready to quit.

[Poufilou]

53 minutes ago, SacredDiver said:

That's the thing, the reason I don't see it that way is that the only means of getting more starters in the original games is through breeding (or trading with someone who only got one starter in their game as well), the current breeding system obviously doesn't allow for that. Rotom is a unique encounter in the Old Chateau TV and Togepi is only available through the Poké Radar, which I don't think a lot of people would prefer over Lures.
Them being available in the wild isn't something basic that has been removed with the Lure feature. Like I said they're not supposed to be wild encounters in the first place. It's rather that instead of having people spam-create characters and trade their starters to their mains, it was changed from a simplistic added feature of just making them regular wild encounters to a mechanic that speeds up the process compared to before and adds more locations too (to the starters).

We're playing PokeMMO and not regular games so this point is irrelevant tbh, something was effectively removed and that's it. 

 

55 minutes ago, SacredDiver said:

I would honestly call it a "paypebble" rather than a "paywall" given how utterly insignificant the price of those lures is. It makes zero sense to me that anyone would be bothered by the fact that they would be paying the price of a great ball to encounter a starter now.

It's not insignificant for the people hunting them. 

 

56 minutes ago, SacredDiver said:

If it had a meaning of "cash-grabbing" like you're saying then this is certainly not a very smart way to go about it. If the goal is to "cash-grab" rich people who usually go for eggs, you don't limit yourself to Pokémon that can't originally be normally encountered in the wild, you also include other rares that are sought after by those rich people. You don't put the lures in Pokémarts because regardless of the price, real money donations would be required to get them into circulation if they're exclusive to the gift shop. You make it more viable to use the Premium Lures continuously in the long run.
You make it actually worth it to do all of your hundreds of thousands of single encounters with those Premium Lures for the Lure-exclusives instead of egg hunting because a measly "+3%" rate increase and more frequent encounters are very far from convincing at that price when you also make it clear as day that you're gonna get more bang for your buck with the cheaper affordable option that does not require any real money.

Rotom, Togepi... (rares affected too)
Also what you describe is plain dumb to do, I don't know why people always react with saying the worst possible decisions devs can make whenever they try to defend why something isn't a cash-grab. So again, kinda irrelevant to the point. 

 

59 minutes ago, SacredDiver said:

I really don't find that the game has strayed away from those overpriced luxuries that we already had with donator status and shiny charms by introducing the Lures feature, that "pay-to-win" aspect isn't any different from before.

I agree Premium lures are on pair with dono and charms. 

 

1 hour ago, SacredDiver said:

I find it truly amusing to see "casual" and "single-shunting starters" in the same sentence. Whether you're rich or poor, provided that you're not a sadist, egg hunting is always gonna be more efficient than single encounters on starters because unless you get incredibly lucky, it's gonna take you on average 20 shinies for one of them to be the starter that you're after. I would imagine that those casual people would have a more "casual" reaction to this feature rather than being extremely bothered by the fact that they are not going to get that lucky 1/30k*20 encounter for free anymore. I see the removal of these species specifically and not the other rares more as an act of balancing rather than a big "cash-grabbing" scheme, other rares can still be encountered without Lures just like before.

Single hunting pokemons is more common than you think, whether it be because people don't like egg hunting or don't have money for it. It's not because something is less efficient that it isn't sought after. Nothing in this is "for free" unless you are the one who is bothered by people getting the shinies they want that way (which btw is the main activity in original games when it comes to shunting). I don't believe in your balancing thing since a lot of rare pokemons got introduced a Lure location meaning they are more easely obtainable.

 

I think Lures are a good addition, I just think it's stupid that starters and some rare locations disappeared, because instead of being an addition in these cases, it became something mandatory, which is kinda dumb to have for the most basic mechanic of the game which is encountering and catching, and is a downgrade to what we had. 

[Obvi]

11 hours ago, YumiJerza said:

Personally I think like a lot of people, for me PokeMMO has taken the path of pay to win for a long time, whether with vanities at the price of a car (no joke).
 

I see this point being made a lot recently about older limited vanities and it always suprises me. Old vanities have never been pay to win, this is just simple supply and demand. No different than your grandpa having a Mickey Mantle rookie card in his basement because he collected sports cards at the time of production in the 50s. (A card worth pennies at the time now worth 7 figures in prestine condition). When production of something stops and people continue to collect them their prices rise and rise. Vanities like Flaming skulls, Electric storm ect where all just 1500RP like every other limited when released. Almost every MMO has limited time items and cosmetics that become rare and saught after, and the more popular the product becomes the more rapidly the values grow over time. If you miss out when it was as cheap and available as every other counterpart it doesnt make it pay to win when they rise after imo.

 

Edited December 28, 2022 by Obvi

[McTermi]

4 hours ago, caioxlive13 said:

Okay, let's end discussion:

PokéMMO can be considered partially Pay-To-Win, due to the fact that it speeds ups the process to get pokémons. But have a full team of 5x31 Shinys comps don't give to you a really objective advantage over players that use a entire team of 2x31 4x25+, because skills matter also. Even some 6x15 could be used on PvP, and on side note, i reached for the first time in veteran having a 6x15 docile Volcarona on team. 

Let's suppose that we have a Gate for the sucess, and a grassy path before it. A pay-to-win game usually gives to you the key only paying real money. PokéMMO hide the keys on grass and only give to p2w player a X-Ray to find key easily. But a common player can search the key without him, and can find. Both can reach on sucess, obviously the player that pays go more easily to him, but common players can reach in there too. 

What about this Game is Pay-to-Win? You can achieve anything with not too much afford in this Game, if u have basic knowldge and grinding endurance. Everything, that u can potentially buy with Real Money, is buyable with pure ingame grinded Money. Sure Money can save you time, but that is about it. RP is accessible and not too hard to obtainable in the market and the economy for everything basic is easily accessable for new Players. There a multiple Ways to make good Money in this Game, which as statet before, makes it besides the price of some older Vanitys, perfectly balanced. I even like the fact, that some stuff is really hard to access, so the Game always keeps a purpose even for big Players, to keep on the Grind.

[SacredDiver]

3 hours ago, Poufilou said:

We're playing PokeMMO and not regular games so this point is irrelevant tbh, something was effectively removed and that's it.

Ah yes, the main argument was "basic game things" being removed but now it's suddenly irrelevant when I point out that this isn't one of them. And rather reduced to a simple "something was removed" that completely ignores the point that what was removed was a "non-basic" feature that was added by PokeMMO to those games that, at the same time, aren't relevant to PokeMMO in any way, shape or form. I see the logic.

 

3 hours ago, Poufilou said:

It's not insignificant for the people hunting them.

I don't see how those people's feelings are somehow supposed to justify that 600$ is a significant paywall towards getting a starter.
 

3 hours ago, Poufilou said:

Rotom, Togepi... (rares affected too)

Also what you describe is plain dumb to do, I don't know why people always react with saying the worst possible decisions devs can make whenever they try to defend why something isn't a cash-grab. So again, kinda irrelevant to the point.

Rotom, Togepi. Literally the only two rares that I took the care to mention that their wild locations were an addition made by PokeMMO, unlike most rares who weren't made Lure-exclusive. We are somehow concluding from this that the criteria for Lure-exclusivity isn't the Pokémon that were previously given a wild location as an added feature to the games they're from, but that it's a great "money-grabbing" scheme that is targeting rare Pokémon as a whole to make us pay real money for Premium Lures and completely ignore regular ones that go for as low as 600$, even though not a single rare Pokémon that doesn't meet the criteria of being a unique encounter (or Poké Radar for Togepi) in its game of origin has been made a Lure-exclusive.

I mean, I was obviously giving multiple examples of what an actual "money-grabbing" scheme would be like to showcase how counterproductive it would be to execute it the way you're claiming it was. This is somehow irrelevant to the point of "money-grabbing" because you think it's dumb, and because you don't know why people would be talking about dev decisions,when the topic of discussion is dev decisions...???
 

3 hours ago, Poufilou said:

Single hunting pokemons is more common than you think, whether it be because people don't like egg hunting or don't have money for it. It's not because something is less efficient that it isn't sought after. Nothing in this is "for free" unless you are the one who is bothered by people getting the shinies they want that way (which btw is the main activity in original games when it comes to shunting). I don't believe in your balancing thing since a lot of rare pokemons got introduced a Lure location meaning they are more easely obtainable.

I feel like you're trying to "antagonize" me by implying that I'm somehow jealous of those people when I'm in fact one of those people lol.

I love single-encounter shunting! I've been doing it for a while and am still doing it. It's the main reason I was so hyped about the introduction of Lures in the first place. I did get some shiny Pokémon that I wanted that way and I wasn't bothered by it last time I checked. I never said single-encounter shunters were a minority nor that they were wrong to seek after their desires, and I don't see how "sought after" is somehow supposed to mean that it's not completely absurd to be entitled to the 1/30k*20 encounter not being free anymore on something that got a wild encounter spot as a result of an added feature when the more efficient method of egg-hunting is still available.
You are free not to "believe" in my opinion.
 

3 hours ago, Poufilou said:

Nothing in this is "for free" unless you are the one who is bothered by people getting the shinies they want that way (which btw is the main activity in original games when it comes to shunting).

I'm not entirely sure what the meaning behind this sentence is. You're quoting me when I state the fact that single-encounters on Lure-exclusives cost money now, and you somehow make out of this factual statement that I am "bothered by people getting shinies"? Then, the "original games" which were supposed to "not be relevant" in your first paragraph are somehow relevant again in this one?

I don't really see the point of continuing this discussion if you're just gonna keep dodging the actual topic and if you're gonna twist a couple of words to shift it towards me supposedly being "bothered by people getting shinies" (very relevant btw :'D). I feel like I've made my points clear and that all I'm doing right now is exposing the flawed logic, which is an utter waste of time since the actual topic isn't being discussed at all anymore.

[caioxlive13]

1 hour ago, McTermi said:

What about this Game is Pay-to-Win? You can achieve anything with not too much afford in this Game, if u have basic knowldge and grinding endurance. Everything, that u can potentially buy with Real Money, is buyable with pure ingame grinded Money. 

That's why i say Partially p2w, because pick your credit card and spend real money speed a lot your progression. Game isn't 100% p2w because the reason you descripted- Everything on game buyable with RP can be buyed with In-game currency and in-game currency can be grinded by common players.

[OGQT]

9 hours ago, jhonesath said:

Agree. Pokemmo is "nearly" perfect. Back then in 2018, im playing "unofficial" pokemon game called evolv3 leg3nd, and they selling legendary pokemon like Darkrai, Lugia, etc. with irl money. Premium player can easily win the pvp, also having an ultimate gear (soul dew in Latias/Latios, for example) that regular player can't access.

 

In the end, their server closed lol. Thankfully, 2 years playing that game, i never spent anything except my time.

 

We all do hoping that pokemmo never take this way. My experience being a regular player in "real pay2win" game like evolv3 leg3nd, making this "lure-thing" in pokemmo become nothing, tbh.

See now that game you described is actually Pay2Win, where you actually have a higher chance to win if you spend money. In PokeMMO you get no advantage, just save time, but you don't get anything that others can't get.

[Poufilou]

1 hour ago, SacredDiver said:

don't see how those people's feelings are somehow supposed to justify that 600$ is a significant paywall towards getting a starter.

If you are hunting, it's not 600, I don't understand why you keep saying that when someone actively hunting gonna end up using millions in Lures whereas it was free before. And they have no other choice than that. 

 

If you are not bothered by the fact that this singular activity isn't free anymore then, then so be it, it's valid, but I don't think YOUR feelings are supposed to justify why this activity needs to be expensive either. 

 

2 hours ago, SacredDiver said:

Ah yes, the main argument was "basic game things" being removed but now it's suddenly irrelevant when I point out that this isn't one of them. And rather reduced to a simple "something was removed" that completely ignores the point that what was removed was a "non-basic" feature that was added by PokeMMO to those games that, at the same time, aren't relevant to PokeMMO in any way, shape or form. I see the logic.

It's a basic game thing of PokeMMO. 

 

2 hours ago, SacredDiver said:

feel like you're trying to "antagonize" me by implying that I'm somehow jealous of those people when I'm in fact one of those people lol.

I love single-encounter shunting! I've been doing it for a while and am still doing it. It's the main reason I was so hyped about the introduction of Lures in the first place. I did get some shiny Pokémon that I wanted that way and I wasn't bothered by it last time I checked. I never said single-encounter shunters were a minority nor that they were wrong to seek after their desires, and I don't see how "sought after" is somehow supposed to mean that it's not completely absurd to be entitled to the 1/30k*20 encounter not being free anymore on something that got a wild encounter spot as a result of an added feature when the more efficient method of egg-hunting is still available.
You are free not to "believe" in my opinion.

My bad tbh, we just have different opinions on this in particular. I will be using Lures but the fact I need to pay for this activity who was just chill before will affect my experience of game and I would rather have kept old spawns. This addition didn't NEED to remove them. 

 

I'm not tackling the topic of pay to win because I think it's semantics and I mostly agree with you on that topic (neither mechanic nor Premium version are absurd pay to win, just what we're used to). 

[OGQT]

8 minutes ago, Poufilou said:

If you are hunting, it's not 600, I don't understand why you keep saying that when someone actively hunting gonna end up using millions in Lures whereas it was free before. And they have no other choice than that. 

If you want to shunt in hordes, do you not have to get leppas to replenish the PP from Sweet Scent? You are spending money regardless, I would understand your point if lures were *only* bought with RP, which they are not. You can now argue that you can farm berries, and can't farm lures, to which I say: well, gym reruns are faster than berry farming, and guess what? You can use the gym rerun money for lures, amazing right? Just play the game and lures won't be any different than a million other changes/additions to the game that people have complained about before, and now are normal things that everyone does with no complaint. 

[Doctor]

You guys realize that for y'all to buy RP vouchers with in-game currency someone has had to pay IRL money and therefore saying it's not behind a paywall is a fallacy right

[LeZenor]

The way I see this, the addition of lures was made to increase the value of certain pokemon such as starters by adding a variable cost. Correct me if I'm wrong but from my understanding, the encounter rates for the Expert Lure is likely the same or close to what it used to be before they were introduced while the premium lures give additional buffs, though they are not acquired the same way. One can be purchased at a relatively cheap price using in-game currency and the rest with Reward Points or as secondhand items with in-game currency. Since Reward Points can be acquired through other means than real money (ie: with pokeyens and by taking part in official events), I can't hardly see as being "locked behind a paywall", or at least it's a very soft paywall. Sure players can skip the grind part by buying directly RPs from the Gift Shop, but in the end "free-to-play" players can still acquire those items quite easily. So what would you define pay-to-win in PokeMMO exactly? Imo the only thing remotely close to be p2w revolves around PvP and nothing else. Please enlighten me because I don't see what advantages you have by having rare shinies or rare vanities over those who don't except maybe some street cred perhaps, you don't really win over anyone. The only thing that would make sense is if you want to sell them to gain money and acquired resources but that's barely reliable since it's heavily based on luck.

 

In regard to PvP, wealthy players or players with more resources than the average do benefit from it. Older and/or wealthy players tend to have more resources and better resources than newer players. For instance, perfect competitive Pokemon which cost more than budget competitive pokemon. Having better IVd Pokemons give you better odds in certain battle scenarios and may decide whether or not you would survive a hit and may also decide whether or not you would K.O the opposing Pokemon. What's more, having many competitive Pokemons at the ready also helps with preventing scouting and counter team, as well as making it hard for other players to know your every moveset. And finally, it's easier to adapt to new metas when you have the means to breed current meta pokemon. Still that doesn't guarantee you're going to win every single match. That's where skill gets involved in the equation and in the end, skill cannot be bought.

 

That being said, it doesn't seem to be specific to PokeMMO but rather inherent to the MMO genre in general. Personally I've never felt like PokeMMO was play-to-win per se since the advantages you gain are not egregious, it's even pretty mild tbh, but more like pay to quicken progress. I'll say though. selling RPs does reduce considerably the grinding aspect and sure helps to amass wealth pretty fast, that's if you're willing to pay the price.

Edited December 30, 2022 by LeZenor

[Poufilou]

10 minutes ago, OGQT said:

If you want to shunt in hordes, do you not have to get leppas to replenish the PP from Sweet Scent? You are spending money regardless, I would understand your point if lures were *only* bought with RP, which they are not. You can now argue that you can farm berries, and can't farm lures, to which I say: well, gym reruns are faster than berry farming, and guess what? You can use the gym rerun money for lures, amazing right? Just play the game and lures won't be any different than a million other changes/additions to the game that people have complained about before, and now are normal things that everyone does with no complaint. 

Yes, you can see it that way and accept it, until every singular activities will require you to grind, and feel less and less free to do anything, until you see that everyone is buying RP to keep up with doing the activities they want to do, and end up realizing you spend more time getting money than using it. 

 

Or you can point out that some stuff don't need to be paid, especially such a thing as being to able to get encounters (it's not even an "extra activity" it's the main purpose of game). 

[OGQT]

14 minutes ago, Doctor said:

You guys realize that for y'all to buy RP vouchers with in-game currency someone has had to pay IRL money and therefore saying it's not behind a paywall is a fallacy right

Technically, no. Since RP can be made through winning official events, you could have an economy in PokeMMO that would be run without any irl interfere. RP Vouchers would be bought with RP won through official events, and then sold like they are now, with no interfere from the real life. It's theoretical, but does disprove your point. The "paywall" everyone keeps referring to, and that seems to be the main example of why PokeMMO is Pay2Win, is even more invalid

[Paul]

🤓🤓🤓

[caioxlive13]

 

2 hours ago, OGQT said:

If you want to shunt in hordes, do you not have to get leppas to replenish the PP from Sweet Scent? You are spending money regardless, I would understand your point if lures were *only* bought with RP, which they are not. You can now argue that you can farm berries, and can't farm lures, to which I say: well, gym reruns are faster than berry farming, and guess what? You can use the gym rerun money for lures, amazing right? Just play the game and lures won't be any different than a million other changes/additions to the game that people have complained about before, and now are normal things that everyone does with no complaint. 

You're lying on one point, have realistic ways to farm lures, and i will explain:. If I for example, go on route 17 Kanto farm eevees with lures, i basically can start farm with $1,500. I buy one lure and start hunting. Every other mon i use Pay Day with smeargle and can kill it, and minimum level thanks to lure is 30. So, i can simply Loop this .... and farm infinity eevees and lures. Just make a second smeargle with pay day for extra PP(Both with PP maxed Pay Day = 64 PP. spending all assuming all opponents level 30 earns to me $19200, that allows me to afford 12 Expert Lures) and GG. I tested and spended 19 PP of pay day with a single lure, let's do the basic calc of how much i earned: 19 * 300 = $5700 with $1500 spended, and i don't even included money earned with Eevees. With money of 1 lure, i can afford 3 and do the cycle again and again. Depending of spot you're farming and if you use Pay Day, you can "farm" lures basically earning a lot of money with a single one and investing all in new lures.

Edited December 28, 2022 by caioxlive13

[SacredDiver]

7 hours ago, Poufilou said:

If you are hunting, it's not 600, I don't understand why you keep saying that when someone actively hunting gonna end up using millions in Lures whereas it was free before. And they have no other choice than that. 

 

If you are not bothered by the fact that this singular activity isn't free anymore then, then so be it, it's valid, but I don't think YOUR feelings are supposed to justify why this activity needs to be expensive either.

I feel like it's important to specify what's meant by "hunting", because your initial point was "it's a paywall that makes you pay for something that should be free" which isn't exclusive to the very specific case of shiny hunting. What you're essentially saying is "I'm willing to possibly do 600,000 (30k*20) encounters for my shiny Lure-exclusive" but I'm entitled to this microscopic fraction of that time and effort that I'm not willing to invest in grinding money for Lures". 600,000 Pokéyen is gonna grant you 100,000 steps of lure, I'm not saying that you're gonna get an encounter at every step but it's still a relatively insignificant price for the value you're getting from it.
So yes, I still stand by my point that it's a paypebble, an insignificant price either way, because it takes a fraction of a minute to gain 600$, and this has nothing to do with my personal feelings which I'm honestly not sure why you would bring up all of a sudden lol.
I'm not saying that you're not allowed to be entitled to that microscopic fraction, I just think that it's a weak and bizarre argument that doesn't apply to the exclusivity of those Pokémon as a whole. Agree to disagree.

 

 

7 hours ago, Poufilou said:

I'm not tackling the topic of pay to win because I think it's semantics and I mostly agree with you on that topic (neither mechanic nor Premium version are absurd pay to win, just what we're used to). 

I feel like this was the main topic of the thread and I think it's quite pleasant to arrive to the same conclusion when it comes to that.

Edited December 29, 2022 by SacredDiver