Gallade Nerf Suggestions

[gbwead]

In the event Gallade is deemed banworthy by the Tier Council, how should Gallade be nerfed in order to be reintrocuded in OU? Whether or not you agree with the decision to potentially ban Gallade, what changes to Gallade or the metagame would be the most appropriate to ensure PokeMMO remains Uberless? Sharpness Nerf? Gallade Movepool Nerf? Recovery PP nerf reversal? 

 

Feel free to suggest direct or indirect ways the development team should handle Gallade. In 72 hours, I will open a poll with all your suggestions.



Since I got no response from any staff member in the Gallade discussion, I assume this thread is the right place for players to discuss the optimal dev solutions to Gallade.

Edited June 11, 2023 by gbwead

[caioxlive13]

Possible Solutions: 
1 - Sharpness Nerf: Reducion from 50% to 35% on Damage boost. 

2 - Gallade Nerf: -15 Base Atk (125 -> 110) 

3 - PP Recovery Buff: From 5(8) to 10(16) (If they get to ban it this would need to be reverted. The era of freedom from Long Matches was good while it lasted.)
4 - Remove Sharpness from Gallade - This is the most agressive one and i don't agree on it happening.

There are the 4 best solutions. Out of the 4, i prefer more the 2nd. It doesn't affect the ability itself so if other mon gets it, it wouldn't be nerfed for 0 reasons. The reducion wasn't big but is enough to take some mons out of 2HKO range.
(Note: I edited to give a better style to the post.)

Edited June 9, 2023 by caioxlive13

[RysPicz]

1 hour ago, gbwead said:

In the event Gallade is deemed banworthy by the Tier Council, how should Gallade be nerfed in order to be reintrocuded in OU? Whether or not you agree with the decision to potentially ban Gallade, what changes to Gallade or the metagame would be the most appropriate to ensure PokeMMO remains Uberless? Sharpness Nerf? Gallade Movepool Nerf? Recovery PP nerf reversal? 

 

Feel free to suggest direct or indirect ways the development team should handle Gallade. In 72 hours, I will open a poll with all your suggestions.



Since I got no response from any staff member in the Gallade discussion, I assume this thread is the right place for players to discuss the optimal dev solutions to Gallade.

Legendaries and rest of hidden abilities :)))))

[DiosSlurpuff]

Perhaps the least invasive solution is to lower the power of sacred sword to something similar to psychocut, this way the pokemon would lose what is by far its most powerful stab without nerfing the rest of the characteristics too strongly (I know this would affect to other mons, which leaves me wondering).

I wouldn't see it as very viable to simply lower its base Atk stat, though that would nerf the SD set a bit, leave Agility, AV sets, or Choice Scarf Gallade sets very bad.

 

From my experience, I don't have a problem with Gallade currently, but I would understand the point of other players being heavily affected by this mon.

 

 

 

32 minutes ago, RysPicz said:

Legendaries and rest of hidden abilities :)))))

Yes +1

Edited June 9, 2023 by DiosSlurpuff

[caioxlive13]

2 minutes ago, DiosSlurpuff said:

Perhaps the least invasive solution is to lower the power of sacred sword to something similar to psychocut, this way the pokemon would lose what is by far its most powerful stab without nerfing the rest of the characteristics too strongly (I know this would affect to other mons, which leaves me wondering), I wouldn't see it as convenient simply to lower its base attack, though that would nerf the SD set a bit, leave Agility, AV sets, or choice scarf Gallade sets very poorly.

 

From my experience, I don't have a problem with Gallade currently, but I would understand the point of other players being heavily affected by this mon.

 

 

 

Yes +1

I agree on tooking away 15 points of it's Attack stat because it aren't a lot and it would still be the best wallbreak of the OU. At same time, some mons will be out of 2HKO range and can help.

[DiosSlurpuff]

9 minutes ago, caioxlive13 said:

I agree on tooking away 15 points of it's Attack stat because it aren't a lot and it would still be the best wallbreak of the OU. At same time, some mons will be out of 2HKO range and can help.

I meant that I did not see it very viable, I already corrected

[Huargensy]

Let's change his attack stats to special attack stats and remove all sharpness related moves from him, just let him cut

[caioxlive13]

4 minutes ago, Huargensy said:

Let's change his attack stats to special attack stats and remove all sharpness related moves from him, just let him cut

Me: Try to offer a solution that solves the problem, without killing the Gallade's Viability.

TC: Let's just kill the mon, done!

[Huargensy]

Just now, caioxlive13 said:

TC: Let's just kill the mon, done!

You're right, let's leave fury cutter too

[DoubleJ]

The most logical changes that don't affect other pokemon or negatively take away from player investment are the following:

 

Remove Sacred Sword from Gallade's movepool (RIP PP Max?)

 

Reduce the Sharpness boost

 

Removing Sacred Sword will force Gallade to run Close Combat which is great. It's not as powerful and it results in a devastating def/spdef drop that results in a significant weakness to exploit. 

 

I've ran calcs and to be effective a Sharpness nerf will need to result in a 20% (or less) boost for cutting attacks. Anything more than that and Gallade still meets easy 2hko's with life orb and hazards. 

[caioxlive13]

17 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

The most logical changes that don't affect other pokemon or negatively take away from player investment are the following:

 

Remove Sacred Sword from Gallade's movepool (RIP PP Max?)

 

Reduce the Sharpness boost

 

Removing Sacred Sword will force Gallade to run Close Combat which is great. It's not as powerful and it results in a devastating def/spdef drop that results in a significant weakness to exploit. 

 

I've ran calcs and to be effective a Sharpness nerf will need to result in a 20% (or less) boost for cutting attacks. Anything more than that and Gallade still meets easy 2hko's with life orb and hazards. 

How about nerfing directly the Gallade's attack stat? From 125 to 110. 

[DoubleJ]

2 hours ago, caioxlive13 said:

How about nerfing directly the Gallade's attack stat? From 125 to 110. 

That takes away from the effectiveness of Gallade's other abilities unnecessarily. The problem is Sharpness and reducing its boost gives the same effect. Don't be dumb chao.

[caioxlive13]

11 hours ago, DoubleJ said:

That takes away from the effectiveness of Gallade's other abilities unnecessarily. The problem is Sharpness and reducing its boost gives the same effect. Don't be dumb chao.

And in which universe the other abilitys of gallade would be used over Sharpness? Both combined had around 1% usage. Is not like Starmie or Breloom, or Chandelure, that both abilitys(Starmie: Natural Cure/Analytic | Breloom: Poison Heal/Technician | Chandelure: Infiltrator/Flash Fire/Flame Body ) are very good(Starmie Analytic for instance forced most Tyranitars to run Assault Gear otherwise it would be doomed vs a Starmie Analytic, basically dying from Surf if caught on switch-in. Chandelure has got only amazing abilitys that are even hard to discard them. Infiltrator is excellent answer to subs, Flash Fire is very good to eat fire attacks, when well predicted it @&#$! opponent's mons, Flame Body ensures that opponent would not click contact moves for free, especially U-Turn) gallade's sharpness outclass all others. However, like i sayed for the people that asked for sacred sword nerf: No one here works on game freak so God only knows which changes will  happen. Nerf on Gallade will impact only gallade, while nerfing ability/move can impact future users when they got the ability.

Edited June 10, 2023 by caioxlive13

[DoubleJ]

This guy just doesn't get it. 

[Frag]

I have some thoughts about this.

 

Nerfing sharpness means that every strong ability added onwards will have to be reworked to make it fit in our "old bad meta" which is the same as playing a modern good looking game on an old computer, you have to nerf the graphics to run it.

 

If we want to improve the tier without making too many custom changes we have to do it in order, which mean avoiding making a random jump from gen 1 to gen 10.

In this case setting a gen limit and add all the abilities availables to that point would be the right way, if the meta is good we keep it until the next mon introduction (new regions), if the meta sucks then we move one gen onwards to get abilities from there for a possible fix.

 

Right now we complain about mongus, gliscor but we dont even have things like magic guard Zam, which is a way lower gen ability and isnt broken as sharpness but its also effective against those.

 

I believe the less invasibe solution its just removing (or ban) this 9th gen ability the same way it was added, and add the abilities availables till a more reasonable gen to see how the meta develops.

 

 

 

[caioxlive13]

13 hours ago, Frag said:

 

 

I believe the less invasibe solution its just removing (or ban) this 9th gen ability the same way it was added, and add the abilities availables till a more reasonable gen to see how the meta develops.

 

 

 

I disagree. While the lack of Sharpness would solve the Gallade problem, it would bring the Mien + Among Us cores to dominate once again. And we will have people exploiting the time limit rule. You fix one problem but create another in the process.

Edited June 10, 2023 by caioxlive13

[DoubleJ]

There really wasn't anything broken about Regen with Amoongus and Mienshao. They were just used a lot and couldn't counter eachother, and thus slowed the game down. Gliscor was the best answer for both, but that meant another stall heavy mon added in. 

[Ajbramberg]

Just make it illegal to run sharpness with a life orb if its really such an issue. anything else seems to be unreasonably limiting to "legitimate" playstyles.  If your reduce his attack thats makes any abillity other than sharpness unusable. Nerfing sharp isnt so bad but it basically pointless because you have to nerf it to like 20% or something for it to not 2hko with life orb and it makes running choice gallade pointless. I still dont really see any need to ban anything other than people wanting to use cheese strats like double regenerator with drain punch mach punch conk tho tbh. Ive used and played against gallades hundreds of times at this point and its never felt too strong or impossible to counter . Like ive said before and i know its crazy and radical but i think the best option going forward in my opinion  is to just add other hidden abilities and moves into the game to compete instead of moving backwards and reverting to the meta we've had for years now. 

Edited June 11, 2023 by Ajbramberg

[Sargeste]

Delete Sharpness? Isn't it an ability introduced after 4 generations of powercreep?

[Ajbramberg]

1 hour ago, Sargeste said:

Delete Sharpness? Isn't it an ability introduced after 4 generations of powercreep?

Same can be said about half of the other hidden abilities 

[drewq]

11 minutes ago, Ajbramberg said:

Same can be said about half of the other hidden abilities 

Uh... no?

[Ajbramberg]

5 minutes ago, drewq said:

Uh... no?

Yes? Theres tons of abilities in this game that arent gen 5, the most common team type (rain) uses a drizzle peliper which wasnt introduced in gen 5. And either way its totally irrelevant what gen a abillity was introduced that has nothing to do with tiering. 

[gbwead]

7 hours ago, DoubleJ said:

There really wasn't anything broken about Regen with Amoongus and Mienshao. They were just used a lot and couldn't counter eachother, and thus slowed the game down. Gliscor was the best answer for both, but that meant another stall heavy mon added in. 

Mienshao is fine. Amoongus is completly busted tho.

[Frag]

1 hour ago, gbwead said:

Mienshao is fine. Amoongus is completly busted tho.

Not really, i've used it a loot and it just does the work vs serpe and rain sometimes, vs offensive teams it always dies to conkel or lucario, so rockyh is good to at least do more dmg, it doesnt wall things like dnite, chomp, exca etc.

People think is broken because it endless switch vs another regen mons, which is exactly what jj said, but thats the problem of the meta centralized around these abilities.

 

[gbwead]

7 minutes ago, Frag said:

Not really, i've used it a loot and it just does the work vs serpe and rain sometimes, vs offensive teams it always dies to conkel or lucario, so rockyh is good to at least do more dmg, it doesnt wall things like dnite, chomp, exca etc.

People think is broken because it endless switch vs another regen mons, which is exactly what jj said, but thats the problem of the meta centralized around these abilities.

It doesn't need to wall many things. All it needs to do is switch in, do its thing (tank hits/spore stuff) and then get back 1/3 of its hp back for free as you send in your counter vs a sleeping target.  Amoongus doesn't counter dnite, chomp and excadrill on its own, but it stops them by taking hits in exchange for rocky helmet chip and then allows counters to switch in safely after sleeping w.e threat is in front of them. For what it is worth, I don't think Amoongus is crazy good vs offense, it's just decent imo.

 

The match up of Amoongus vs stall is what bothers me the most tbh. That's what makes Amoongus busted imo. For a while, we had Weezing doing great to punish Amoongus, but seeing how Weezing is falling to UU in usage, I'm starting to seriously question its viability (perhaps Gallade is to be blamed). Playing stall vs something like Venusaur, I would be able to pressure it by knocking off its black sludge and/or force it to take dmg for which Venusaur would have to use a recovery move like Giga Drain or Synthesis. Vs Stall Amoongus hardly cares about getting knocked off or being forced to take dmg. Amoongus doesn't need to do Synthesis to heal back up, so Blissey using Flamethrower or Ice Beam vs a predicted Amoongus is utterly pointless. Rotom using volt switch to chip a Venusaur/Chansey is progress, Rotom using Volt Switch to chip an Amoongus is pointless. If my Reuniclus that doesn't take hazard dmg forces in Sableye (or Milotic Haze prior to the recovery PP nerf) that takes hazard dmg, that's progress for the Reuniclus player long term. If Sableye/Milotic forces in Amoongus on the field, Amoongus could not care less about the temporary dmg it will take from hazards or the Ice Beam from Milotic. As soon as Amoongus switches out, all that chip dmg is gone, Amoongus is not forced to use a recovery move PP unlike Sableye and Milotic. It saddens me that if I want to play stall, I have to play Amoongus (or the less viable Weezing). I no longer have options.