Gallade Nerf Suggestions

[gbwead]

List of the suggestions so far:

• Sharpness Nerf/Removal
• Recovery moves PP back to 16
• Sacred Sword Nerf/Removal
• Gallade base stat reduction
• Release of new features (Legendaries/Hidden Abilities) to deal with Gallade

Edited June 11, 2023 by gbwead

[Frag]

1 hour ago, gbwead said:

It doesn't need to wall many things. All it needs to do is switch in, do its thing (tank hits/spore stuff) and then get back 1/3 of its hp back for free as you send in your counter vs a sleeping target.  Amoongus doesn't counter dnite, chomp and excadrill on its own, but it stops them by taking hits in exchange for rocky helmet chip and then allows counters to switch in safely after sleeping w.e threat is in front of them. For what it is worth, I don't think Amoongus is crazy good vs offense, it's just decent imo.

 

The match up of Amoongus vs stall is what bothers me the most tbh. That's what makes Amoongus busted imo. For a while, we had Weezing doing great to punish Amoongus, but seeing how Weezing is falling to UU in usage, I'm starting to seriously question its viability (perhaps Gallade is to be blamed). Playing stall vs something like Venusaur, I would be able to pressure it by knocking off its black sludge and/or force it to take dmg for which Venusaur would have to use a recovery move like Giga Drain or Synthesis. Vs Stall Amoongus hardly cares about getting knocked off or being forced to take dmg. Amoongus doesn't need to do Synthesis to heal back up, so Blissey using Flamethrower or Ice Beam vs a predicted Amoongus is utterly pointless. Rotom using volt switch to chip a Venusaur/Chansey is progress, Rotom using Volt Switch to chip an Amoongus is pointless. If my Reuniclus that doesn't take hazard dmg forces in Sableye (or Milotic Haze prior to the recovery PP nerf) that takes hazard dmg, that's progress for the Reuniclus player long term. If Sableye/Milotic forces in Amoongus on the field, Amoongus could not care less about the temporary dmg it will take from hazards or the Ice Beam from Milotic. As soon as Amoongus switches out, all that chip dmg is gone, Amoongus is not forced to use a recovery move PP unlike Sableye and Milotic. It saddens me that if I want to play stall, I have to play Amoongus (or the less viable Weezing). I no longer have options.

 

 

 

 

 

I didn't see it that way because I don't play stall, but what you said about stall is correct.

A mon deniying a match progress by other kind of strat that is not related to pp doesn't sound healty at all.

[caioxlive13]

9 hours ago, Frag said:

I didn't see it that way because I don't play stall, but what you said about stall is correct.

A mon deniying a match progress by other kind of strat that is not related to pp doesn't sound healty at all.

The best way to deal with this is discouraging the people from stall matches. I think that are better to do this: If match goes to 60 min, the system will go for tiebreak. But if was detected that the winner has a Regen User, the match will be a Tie.

 

Also, a button to propose a tie can be added. If a player uses it, on the next turn the opponent's button to propose tie will change to a button telling that opponent proposed a tie. You had to click on that turn, to accept the draw. If you play your move, the draw offer will be denied. Both players can only offer draw once.

 

Before someone says that would ruin tours, just add a rule: No tie Button. If the rule is active, both sides cannot offer draw and the said button would vanish. For ladder the rule would always be off and for tours would be always on.

Edited June 11, 2023 by caioxlive13

[gbwead]

8 minutes ago, caioxlive13 said:

The best way to deal with this is discouraging the people from stall matches. I think that are better to do this: If match goes to 60 min, the system will go for tiebreak. But if was detected that the winner has a Regen User, the match will be a Tie.

 

Also, a button to propose a tie can be added. If a player uses it, on the next turn the opponent's button to propose tie will change to a button telling that opponent proposed a tie. You had to click on that turn, to accept the draw. If you play your move, the draw offer will be denied. Both players can only offer draw once.

This isn't chess. There can't be any draws.

[Munya]

Keep in mind if this topic is going to happen, devs are always going to prefer path of least effected, so for instance nerfing Sharpness at this point in time directly nerfs Gallade without effecting any other pokemon currently.  Changing the PP of recovery moves is something that effects many pokemon, it would be a last resort if ever considered.

[gbwead]

17 minutes ago, Munya said:

Keep in mind if this topic is going to happen, devs are always going to prefer path of least effected, so for instance nerfing Sharpness at this point in time directly nerfs Gallade without effecting any other pokemon currently.  Changing the PP of recovery moves is something that effects many pokemon, it would be a last resort if ever considered.

When the recovery PP nerf was introduced, it affected many pokemon and still got implemented. Why would changing back be a last resort now, but wasn't a consideration at the time? This goes both ways.

 

I agree with the principle that nerfs as undesirable as they may be should impact the least amount of pokemon as possible. The recovery PP change wasn't implemented for balancing purposes, it was a game design decision, it was a dev choice ultimately. It's not a PokeMMO nerf where the original game gets altered, it's a gamefreak change in gen 9 that PokeMMO chose to implement. The argument that now we can't go back because it would affect many mon just doesn't hold.

Edited June 11, 2023 by gbwead

[caioxlive13]

1 hour ago, gbwead said:

This isn't chess. There can't be any draws.

This seems to be reasonable. Because in a event of stall facing themselves, and both had regens, they can't progress but neither wants to resign. On ladder can be a good thing to avoid for both players to they waste time. On tours is bad because matches has to have a winner.

 

Also on smogon battles can draw.

Edited June 11, 2023 by caioxlive13

[Munya]

1 hour ago, gbwead said:

When the recovery PP nerf was introduced, it affected many pokemon and still got implemented. Why would changing back be a last resort now, but wasn't a consideration at the time? This goes both ways.

 

I agree with the principle that nerfs as undesirable as they may be should impact the least amount of pokemon as possible. The recovery PP change wasn't implemented for balancing purposes, it was a game design decision, it was a dev choice ultimately. It's not a PokeMMO nerf where the original game gets altered, it's a gamefreak change in gen 9 that PokeMMO chose to implement. The argument that now we can't go back because it would affect many mon just doesn't hold.

One is a change to fall in line with the official pokemon games, the other is a potentially completely custom nerf, big difference.  

 

Just to be clear, I am not saying the pp nerf could never be reverted, I may say its unlikely but I wouldn't say no.  I would say its less likely in this particular case than it normally would be, you would need to seek that reversion elsewhere if you want to make a serious push for it.

[gbwead]

6 minutes ago, Munya said:

One is a change to fall in line with the official pokemon games, the other is a potentially completely custom nerf, big difference.  

 

Just to be clear, I am not saying the pp nerf could never be reverted, I may say its unlikely but I wouldn't say no.  I would say its less likely in this particular case than it normally would be, you would need to seek that reversion elsewhere if you want to make a serious push for it.

Fair enough, but small reasons for the PP nerf reversal can add up to a big reason, so it's important to take note of this small reason here because whenever a push for the reversal happen we will be able to look back at this.

[gbwead]

Poll is up. Let me know if I missed any suggestion.

[caioxlive13]

List of the suggestions so far:

• Sharpness Nerf/Removal
• Recovery moves PP back to 16
• Sacred Sword Nerf/Removal
• Gallade base stat reduction
• Release of new features (Legendaries/Hidden Abilities) to deal with Gallade

Out of those suggestions, the ones in bold i see as more aggresive. I don't think it should be applied unless there is no other resource avaliable. The italic ones are without doubt the best ones.

Edited June 11, 2023 by caioxlive13

[DoubleJ]

Gonna lol when Gallade isn't banned. 

 

(Don't hurt me, pls)

[Ziiiiio]

I think 16 recover OR remove Sacred Sword is a suitable solution:

 

If s-sword is removed, Gallade will force to run CC, def nerf will let trap mons kill him easier. So traditional weavile balance might can solve it really easily.

 

With Skar/ferrothorn+weavile, Gallade force to click CC, then get damage from helmet and lo, finally -1 def killed by pursuit really ez.

+1 252 Atk Weavile Pursuit (40 BP) vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Gallade: 199-235 (71.8 - 84.8%)

Scarf gallade can solve this situation, by lock S-sword outspeed weavile. But it get risk from Weavile  when he lock psycut.

 

Additionally, remove s-sowrd only effect Gallade vs Weavile/scarf ttar Balance stall, we already know gallade is not op when he faces HO, nerf s-sword won't really make him worse to vs offensive team. Gallade's OP wall breaking skill is something we need start thinking about.

 

Then PP nerf...... hope we get it back, I would like to try everything and I haven't start play that and it get nerfed 

 

 

 

Something about pp nerf:

 

How 60 mins match happends. It usually caused when Stall vs Stall, once guss/glisor get HA and mienshao get AV item, they were too good in this meta at that time, and fit many different playstyle. You can build a BO by adding guss cz spore can help sweepers. Same as spikes glisor and knock off mienshao etc...... also they are popular stall members as well.

Regen mons VS Regen mons creates endless match, they wont die if you dont want them die, when mirror match happends, These mons got such a high usage because they were too strong and many players were using them, either rank and tournament. 

 

PP nerf decrease 60 mins match certainly, stall usage droped and Stall VS Stall will less happends, but that wasn't the mean problem, Glisor will change to protect and Guss still there, they can play another 60 mins match once it face a other regen stall...... Gallade is a mon who can fix this, He weakened the strength of these endless match members. The only victims are traditional walls who rely on recover instead, and I can not find any reason to nerf them.

 

 

On 6/11/2023 at 3:37 PM, Munya said:

Changing the PP of recovery moves is something that effects many pokemon, it would be a last resort if ever considered.

If this updates can affect a lot of mons obviously, how this judgment can made so easily and quickly, and changing back seems hard......?

 

I wish we can try Gallade + 16 recover together, in next season.

 

 

Edited June 12, 2023 by Ziiiiio

[Quinn010]

imo add tangrowth he will fix this problem @munya

 

Edited June 12, 2023 by Quinn010

[EleBuzz]

I think its mostly the stall play style that has such a big problem with gallade otherwise its not that strong in my opinion. so I would suggest starting off with 

 

Making psycho cut take damage from rockyhelmet. 

remove ice punch from movepool making it less versatile/more predictable for stall players.  

remove swords dance

remove leafblade 

or all the above or a combination but not all. 

[caioxlive13]

Everyone giving their suggestions and i was the closest to hit what nerf was actually done: 

• Sharpness' damage modifier for slicing moves has been reduced from 1.5x to 1.3x
  • Gallade has been re-enabled for Over Used tiers

On 6/9/2023 at 12:34 PM, caioxlive13 said:

Possible Solutions: 
1 - Sharpness Nerf: Reducion from 50% to 35% on Damage boost. 

2 - Gallade Nerf: -15 Base Atk (125 -> 110) 

3 - PP Recovery Buff: From 5(8) to 10(16) (If they get to ban it this would need to be reverted. The era of freedom from Long Matches was good while it lasted.)
4 - Remove Sharpness from Gallade - This is the most agressive one and i don't agree on it happening.

There are the 4 best solutions. Out of the 4, i prefer more the 2nd. It doesn't affect the ability itself so if other mon gets it, it wouldn't be nerfed for 0 reasons. The reducion wasn't big but is enough to take some mons out of 2HKO range.
(Note: I edited to give a better style to the post.)

 

[Makarovs]

2 minutes ago, caioxlive13 said:

Everyone giving their suggestions and i was the closest to hit what nerf was actually done: 

• Sharpness' damage modifier for slicing moves has been reduced from 1.5x to 1.3x
  • Gallade has been re-enabled for Over Used tiers

 

Lies. All your suggestions had already been made by many other people, you just put it all together and posted it as your own (just like you do with everything around here)

[caioxlive13]

1 hour ago, Makarovs said:

Lies. All your suggestions had already been made by many other people, you just put it all together and posted it as your own (just like you do with everything around here)

Neither of them has given a specific value. While everyone just asked to nerf, i given to what values should be nerfed the Atk stat or the Sharpness boost. 

[DoubleJ]

Chaotzu trying to take credit for other peoples' posts? Classic. 

 

Looking forward to having a quality wallbreaker in OU once again. 

[caioxlive13]

24 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

Chaotzu trying to take credit for other peoples' posts? Classic. 

 

Looking forward to having a quality wallbreaker in OU once again. 

Still will be one of the best wallbreaker on OU with the nerf, because it still are capable of winning not against all walls, but against the top 3 ones: Gliscor, Chansey and Amoongus. Still are awful against offense as well.

[Munya]

Cool story, a nerf has been decided on, if it needs to be revisited we can take a look back at this thread if need be.  Closing.