[Implemented] Move Tutor Costs

[BurntZebra]

I don't think there's a single person that actually likes the new move tutor system completely. No one wants to grind for magnets, black belts, silk scarfs, etc. for one single move tutor. With pickup being the only method of getting many of these items, we obviously need some kind of balancing with the new move tutors so we don't have to spend over 3 hours to get a move like seismic toss. 

 

As I see it now, there are four options.

 

1. Revert back to the old pokeyen system. No one really thought it was unreasonable and its much easier than farming for items for several hours, especially if someone is in a pinch in a tournament and needs to change a move quickly. I kind of doubt devs would consider reverting it since that would suggest they were wrong and OBVIOUSLY they aren't *wink*

 

2. Decrease the amount of items required for tutors to one across the board. Two is fairly ridiculous when most of the items are pickup only.

 

3. Make pickup more efficient by increasing the percentages that an item will appear after a battle, so it doesn't take over an hour to potentially get the item you're looking for. 

 

2 and 3 aren't mutually exclusive and could probably be implemented together, to actually make the move tutor system not a total waste of time.

 

4. Allow people to buy black belts, silk scarves, etc with battle points or pokeyen. This allows people to bypass one of the many grinds of the game at the cost of pokeyen or battle points, both of which take time to acquire. This could be implemented with 2 and/or 3.

 

[Vaeldras]

I'd rather quit for days until i find someone selling those items on the forums rather than pickup for who knows how long.

That should tell you how much i like this new system.

Who ever thought of this system gets all my hate and that of my future descendants.

[Eggplant]

I'm almost cool with farming magnets off magnetmites etc, but pickup is a damn chore.

My preferred alternative would be wild spawns that hold silk scarfs and black belts.

I dunno, I just feel like pickup in itself shouldn't be a grind in itself, but just kinda like a bonus on top of whatever you're doing. Like I pickup in mt moon when ev training atk to get shrooms and everstones, but I never really bothered to "grind pickup". It's just another new senseless way to grind, unless at least given that self satisfactino of efficiency when you feel like you're doing several grinds at the same time, consuming only the time to complete one.

[KaynineXL]

Here's my suggestion

 

 

 

Requiring items instead of money adds some more variety while making otherwise useless (when you have more than one) items actually useful and therefore worth hunting for. By extension, it makes the locations you find those items in worth hunting in post-story. Routes 12 and 13 would be rarely used if not for Farfetch'ds and their Sticks.

 

Adjusting the hold rate of certain items or reducing the tutor's requirements isn't out of the question if it turns out to be too difficult to teach a particular move.

It raises the grind to make a comp by a considerable amount though. Today me and a few LYLE peeps were in Victory road trying to get 2 Thick Clubs(for the popular move Double Edge). I was there for a good 30mins without finding one, I'm not sure if the others even found any before we all left.

 

 

That said.. I don't think this would be that bad if the hold rate/pickup rate were changed.

 

Taken from my guide, this is what we've found at Victory Road(It's not complete as far as I know).

I was thinking, the locations where you find these 'tutor items' remove all the junk to make it easier to find the items that are valuable, which would reduce the grind and actually make the change from using yen actually not bad..

Victory Road: (before)

Hyper Potion, Super Repel, Hard Stone, Thick Club, Black Belt, Super Potion

 

Victory Road: (after)

Hard Stone, Thick Club, Black Belt

 

 

Edited November 11, 2015 by KaynineXL

[lewdshota]

make the moves buyable through BP

[Arimanius]

make the moves buyable through BP

 

U can buy them with bps but they're like 30k each move which is the greatest jk ever xD

[codylramey]

The point of the mechanic change seems to be so that there will be a variety of items that will be useful to sell on the global market. I dont really know why they implemented it in now as opposed to when we get global trade, perhaps it was so that they can test how long it takes to get these items n such. I agree with eggplant, if these items were just randomly found whiled doing everyday things it wouldnt be so bad. Especially when global trade is implemented.

[Noad]

I understand that and I support that they are implementing more ways for people to make money, not all players enjoy breeding to sell. However I personally feel that if players are required to pay for move tutors with items then they should:

1.) Be made available on specific Pokemon to thief 

2.) Change the Pick Up feature as KaynineXL has suggested above. I personally do not see the use of potions and antidotes being available as a Pick Up item, but I do like the idea of the type enhancing items, evolution stones, everstones ect. 

3.) Make these items available at the Battle Frontier, this is something I am least fond of as I do feel that there should be a varied gameplay and Pick Up does offer this to an extent. It would also reduce the value of these items, negating the ability to sell to make a large amount of money. 

 

Overall I do like the feature but I personally dont feel it is necessary for players to have to grind for a few hours for two items to obtain one move. Even shard tutors are easier to obtain than that. 

[Darkshade]

U can buy them with bps but they're like 30k each move which is the greatest jk ever xD

 

Hardly.

 

The most expensive moves sit at 30k BP each, and even then the general BP payout is more than reasonable in it's current form.

 

On another note:

 

'Junk items' primarily exist to contrast valuable items and also to allow newer players quick access less-valuable items they need or small portions of money.

 

What is good without evil?

[KaynineXL]

Hardly.

 

The most expensive moves sit at 30k BP each, and even then the general BP payout is more than reasonable in it's current form.

 

On another note:

 

'Junk items' primarily exist to contrast valuable items and also to allow newer players quick access less-valuable items they need or small portions of money.

I'm not saying remove junk items completely, just from the spots where we need to farm these tutor items, becuase it's ridiculous trying to farm the items.

 

Let's say it takes you 20 kills to get 1 item..

Going by what my guide says

[spoiler]

Victory Road:

Hyper Potion, Super Repel, Hard Stone, Thick Club, Black Belt, Super Potion

[/spoiler]

It's at least like 1/7 chance to get a Thick club, if that's how it works.(Probably even worse odds)

7x20= 140 kills to get 1 Thick club? This is probably not accurate, but I bet it's close.

[LuisPocho]

I like the idea of making pick up more efficent because it can be easily balanced... Even if you to try to get one specific item you gonna get a some items you dont need, wich you may trade

[Arimanius]

Hardly.

 

The most expensive moves sit at 30k BP each, and even then the general BP payout is more than reasonable in it's current form.

 

On another note:

 

'Junk items' primarily exist to contrast valuable items and also to allow newer players quick access less-valuable items they need or small portions of money.

 

What is good without evil?

 

k u really don't know what you're talking about

 

 

 

I know shard rates and to pay 30k bps for a fucking substitute or seismic toss or body slam is ok for u because u love every thing that is wrong with this game but don't try to make me look like I'm mistaken, cause guess what? I DO PLAY THIS GAME!

[Darkshade]

k u really don't know what you're talking about

 

No you're right, I only designed the system.

 

You've given me 2 examples of the 'most expensive' moves.

 

Moves are priced in order of competitive value/additional use, which is why the two moves that you have pointed out are part of the 'most expensive' group.

[BurntZebra]

I understand that and I support that they are implementing more ways for people to make money, not all players enjoy breeding to sell. However I personally feel that if players are required to pay for move tutors with items then they should:
1.) Be made available on specific Pokemon to thief
2.) Change the Pick Up feature as KaynineXL has suggested above. I personally do not see the use of potions and antidotes being available as a Pick Up item, but I do like the idea of the type enhancing items, evolution stones, everstones ect.
3.) Make these items available at the Battle Frontier, this is something I am least fond of as I do feel that there should be a varied gameplay and Pick Up does offer this to an extent. It would also reduce the value of these items, negating the ability to sell to make a large amount of money.

Overall I do like the feature but I personally dont feel it is necessary for players to have to grind for a few hours for two items to obtain one move. Even shard tutors are easier to obtain than that.

Although I agree an mmo should have variety in ways to do things, I don't think there is a reason the items shouldn't be at battle frontier.

Let's take runescape for example since people use it a lot as a comparison. You can specialize in something like woodcutting and cut down magic trees and yew trees all day long in order to get money for other stuff. This can be boring for some people but others might like it. Others may prefer doing a little woodcutting, some mining, and some runecrafting in order to reach the same result as the sole woodcutter.

Basically what I'm getting at is don't force people to do 20 different grinds to reach a certain goal, but let the people who like variety in their gameplay to do the 20 different grinds.

If items were added at the battle frontier, the pickup stuff would still need to be buffed to not make it completely obsolete in comparison to the battle frontier. Maybe make the pickup mechanics slightly more efficient than battle frontier to make players choose between different activities.

[Arimanius]

No you're right, I only designed the system.

 

You've given me 2 examples of the 'most expensive' moves.

 

Moves are priced in order of competitive value/additional use, which is why the two moves that you have pointed out are part of the 'most expensive' group.

 

every tutor move in that building costs 30k, man wanna log in and check... I wont fucking post 15 pics

Edited November 11, 2015 by Arimanius

[OldKeith]

No you're right, I only designed the system.

 

You've given me 2 examples of the 'most expensive' moves.

 

Moves are priced in order of competitive value/additional use, which is why the two moves that you have pointed out are part of the 'most expensive' group.

 

You keep defending your shitty battle facilities. Let me remind you that they are hax-filled and if you get a single disconnection on your 7th battle, you earn no points. At this rate, nobody is gonna farm the battle facilities for 20 hours just to get a damn move you used to be able to buy for 25k yen.

Edited November 11, 2015 by OldKeith

[Darkshade]

every tutor move in that building costs 30k, man wanna log in and check... I wont fucking post 15 pics

 

Ah you're referring to the Battle Frontier move tutors, not the 'Special' Move tutors which are also available from the Battle Frontier and also cost BP.

 

Interestingly, what you've come across is actually a bug, as they use the same prices.

 

Noted and will make sure that is fixed, and apologies for the misunderstanding.

 

Although I agree an mmo should have variety in ways to do things, I don't think there is a reason the items shouldn't be at battle frontier.

Let's take runescape for example since people use it a lot as a comparison. You can specialize in something like woodcutting and cut down magic trees and yew trees all day long in order to get money for other stuff. This can be boring for some people but others might like it. Others may prefer doing a little woodcutting, some mining, and some runecrafting in order to reach the same result as the sole woodcutter.

Basically what I'm getting at is don't force people to do 20 different grinds to reach a certain goal, but let the people who like variety in their gameplay to do the 20 different grinds.

If items were added at the battle frontier, the pickup stuff would still need to be buffed to not make it completely obsolete in comparison to the battle frontier. Maybe make the pickup mechanics slightly more efficient than battle frontier to make players choose between different activities.

 

Wouldn't this be the opposite of the example you gave?

 

You can't get logs via mining.

You can't get ores through woodcutting.

 

Anybody is welcome to do either, but those who specialize are able to trade their specialized goods for somebody elses goods in a different area; Or, you can convert them into money (a global currency) and purchase other goods you may require.

 

Adding these items to the BP shops would be the equivalent of allowing players too obtain ores via woodcutting.

 

One of the big problems we have here is the lack of an Auction House to convert those goods, which is something we are working on.

Edited November 11, 2015 by Darkshade

[Arimanius]

Ah you're referring to the Battle Frontier move tutors, not the 'Special' Move tutors which are also available from the Battle Frontier and also cost BP.

 

Interestingly, what you've come across is actually a bug, as they use the same prices.

well then u should read better cause the answer I gave to the man who asked for the tutors to cost bps is for those moves and I told him it was already implemented and every move was 30k bp. Ofc I didn't mean special moves or I would have said exactly that. I don't know how's that a bug though

[KaynineXL]

Ah you're referring to the Battle Frontier move tutors, not the 'Special' Move tutors which are also available from the Battle Frontier and also cost BP.

 

Interestingly, what you've come across is actually a bug, as they use the same prices.

It's bugged? Isn't the price just incorrect and needs to be changed?

[Darkshade]

It's bugged? Isn't the price just incorrect and needs to be changed?

 

Yes, 'bugged' is just the term used as the fence is painted faster with broad strokes.

 

But their price should be taken from the same source, instead of an alternate one.

 

well then u should read better cause the answer I gave to the man who asked for the tutors to cost bps is for those moves and I told him it was already implemented and every move was 30k bp. Ofc I didn't mean special moves or I would have said exactly that. I don't know how's that a bug though

 

Both of these tutors require BP as payment, which is why there was some confusion on my end.

[KaynineXL]

Yes, 'bugged' is just the term used as the fence is painted faster with broad strokes.

 

But their price should be taken from the same source, instead of an alternate one.

Didn't really understand your analogy due to me being a little dumb.

 

Let's just pretend I understand.

 

 

edit: Ok, I think I understand.. Are you telling me you painted with broad strokes to get the job done faster, but you missed little bits? In which case, are you going to repaint to get those small bits you missed?

Edited November 11, 2015 by KaynineXL

[Darkshade]

Didn't really understand your analogy due to me being a little dumb.

 

Let's just pretend I understand.

 

It basically just means "For the sake of argument/understanding anything that is not working as intended is called 'bugged'".

 

Also I have replied to Zebra in a previous edit.

 

To be entirely honest though, until we're in a position where an Auction House is up and running and players are able to easily convert their hard-earned goods into cash in a reasonable time frame, it's likely that you'll feel the grind a little bit harder than you should.

 

The end goal is to eventually create a trade system that requires each specialized party to trade goods with one another.

That way we can ensure that the games economy essentially stabilizes and runs itself; various players may specialize in particular areas and those goods will be required by other players who may be doing the same in another area.

 

This creates a constant demand/supply, and keeps the trade of the game active.

Trade Chat is not very effective at this however, because of the amount of people using it, the inability to search for what you want and because you're unable to use it whilst offline.

And unlike Runescape, we have no community-driven trade area as a placeholder.

 

This 'cycle' is also not fully complete yet, as there are various areas of specialization in the game that are not yet implemented that should help to further it.

 

As for the topic of Tutors requiring items:

 

It was a necessary change to up the use/value/demand of particular items and further promote trading in preparation for an Global Trade Center.

 

The rates of pickup will be further tested and will be looked into, however please keep in mind that the current rendition is only the first - and it's vitally important that if anything we make things 'too hard' to begin with rather than too easy, to protect the economy.

 

At this point I can't comment on the difficulty until I have gathered some further statistics; this particular feature was not one that was primarily handled by myself.

 

 

edit: Ok, I think I understand.. Are you telling me you painted with broad strokes to get the job done faster, but you missed little bits? In which case, are you going to repaint to get those small bits you missed?

 

Hopefully the above sufficiently answers that question.

[BurntZebra]

Ah you're referring to the Battle Frontier move tutors, not the 'Special' Move tutors which are also available from the Battle Frontier and also cost BP.

 

Interestingly, what you've come across is actually a bug, as they use the same prices.

 

Noted and will make sure that is fixed, and apologies for the misunderstanding.

 

 

Wouldn't this be the opposite of the example you gave?

 

You can't get logs via mining.

You can't get ores through woodcutting.

 

Anybody is welcome to do either, but those who specialize are able to trade their specialized goods for somebody elses goods in a different area; Or, you can convert them into money (a global currency) and purchase other goods you may require.

 

Adding these items to the BP shops would be the equivalent of allowing players too obtain ores via woodcutting.

 

One of the big problems we have here is the lack of an Auction House to convert those goods, which is something we are working on.

You can sell logs for gp or whatever it was called and then buy ores or whatever item you need. The person who does a bit of everything is more self sufficient but less efficient overall. The most successful companies in real life are highly specialized in one thing, as its just not efficient to try to do 25 different things all at the same caliber.

 

Battle points can be seen as a form of currency as people buy and sell them, and they can be used to purchase goods such as choice bands, scope lens, vitamins, move tutors, etc. Battle points to the type boosting items isn't really ridiculous as obtaining ores via woodcutting. The whole idea of the battle frontier is battling and being competitive. One part of being competitive is having items that are used during battles. Type boosting items are actually worth using in battles now with their 20% boost now. Being able to purchase type boosting items with battle points would somewhat bypass the need for an auction house or grand exchange w/e, for the time being at least. 

 

That being said, I don't think it should be an obvious choice to grind away at battle frontier, rather than grinding for pickup drops or thieving. Let's say you can get 10 black belts an hour while pickup grinding (if only, got zero black belts after two hours of grind), but you are only able to get 5 black belts an hour via battle points, but the battle points are usable for all the other cool things you can normally purchase with battle points. Then players have the choice to grind solely for black belts or grind for battle points, both of which have pros and cons. 

[Darkshade]

You can sell logs for gp or whatever it was called and then buy ores or whatever item you need. The person who does a bit of everything is more self sufficient but less efficient overall. The most successful companies in real life are highly specialized in one thing, as its just not efficient to try to do 25 different things all at the same caliber.

 

That's exactly what I'm trying to get at; the people specializing in these areas can sell their goods for money and use that to buy other goods via the Auction House.

Acting in a very similarly to the Grand Exchange in Runescape.

 

 

Battle points can be seen as a form of currency as people buy and sell them, and they can be used to purchase goods such as choice bands, scope lens, vitamins, move tutors, etc. Battle points to the type boosting items isn't really ridiculous as obtaining ores via woodcutting. The whole idea of the battle frontier is battling and being competitive. One part of being competitive is having items that are used during battles. Type boosting items are actually worth using in battles now with their 20% boost now. Being able to purchase type boosting items with battle points would somewhat bypass the need for an auction house or grand exchange w/e, for the time being at least. 

 

We do not like to implement temporary fixes if we can help it, as they generally lead to unforeseen circumstances (especially economically).

And then there will be people who prefer the temporary fix (This thread is a good example) and hold the previous standard over the current.

 

As we've said elsewhere, the Battle Frontier is also incomplete, as eventually we will be pushing that further down a PvP route.

[BurntZebra]

That's exactly what I'm trying to get at; the people specializing in these areas can sell their goods for money and use that to buy other goods via the Auction House.

Acting in a very similarly to the Grand Exchange in Runescape.

 

 

 

We do not like to implement temporary fixes if we can help it, as they generally lead to unforeseen circumstances (especially economically).

And then there will be people who prefer the temporary fix (This thread is a good example) and hold the previous standard over the current.

 

As we've said elsewhere, the Battle Frontier is also incomplete, as eventually we will be pushing that further down a PvP route.

Well these changes would be somewhat acceptable if a) the pickup rates are increased and b ) we actually have an auction house or grand exchange system. There's no reason to start having all these changes for no reason when we don't even have the system that makes it viable. Competitive players can't really afford to sit around for 6 months (at least) for the auction house to be implemented, and even then, that doesn't guarantee anything. The demand for black belts and silk scarves definitely exist now and there are plenty of people offering pokeyen for them, but no one even has the items at all. The auction house won't magically create a supply of these items.

 

Sometimes temporary fixes are necessary. Economic repercussions would not be too evident as the items used for move tutors are basically deleted from the world once they are used, eliminating possible inflation. The only possible problem would be if someone stockpiled these items knowing that the mechanics would eventually change, but even then, devs could mention in the changelog that type boosting items will be reduced to 5 in your bag if you have more than 5. 

 

The battle frontier being incomplete doesn't seem that relevant to the argument at hand. If anything, it just supports the the notion that type boosting items should stay at the battle frontier. Personally, I think it would be cool if the battle frontier was a self sufficient place where you could do the PvE activities to get battle points for vitamins and competitive items, then have PvP or other versions of PvE that have certain competitive pokemon available if you win a tournament or something. Now that would be an end game people could get behind, especially with the type boosting items.