[NU Discussion] Kingler

[Tyrone]

Intro:

The Tier Council is currently debating whether Kingler fits the Offensive Uber characteristic. The combination of excellent Water/Normal/Fighting coverage, its 130 base attack stat, its decent 75 base speed, its respectable physical defense, and its Hyper Cutter ability, Kingler imposes itself as significant threat in the NU tier. Whether Kingler plays a SD + 3 attacks set, a CB set, or a Flail set, it is almost impossible to take out kingler without losing a few pokemon in the process. Even Tangela, as the best counter to Kingler, has a high chance of losing against the Flail set.

 

Although the flail set has the best sweeping ability, there are several viable priority move users including Raichu, Hitmontop, Flareon, Scyther, and Pinsir, which can prevent a flail Kingler from sweeping. We have some pokemon that can take advantage of the CB set such as Aggron, Misdreavus, Lapras, and Poliwrath, but there is always a risk and predict involved. It can also be tricky for the choice band set to play around protect users like Hypno, Raichu, and Flareon.

 

One of the things that makes Kingler such a threatening pokemon is trying to guess what set it is running. The flail set can only be stopped by applying constant pressure, but that can be taken advantage by the choice band set. For example a lapras could potentially stay in vs substitute flail kingler to prevent it from setting up, but it takes the risk of taking a choice band superpower which will quickly kill it. 

 

Relatively few pokemon can reliably revenge kill Kingler due to its sizable physical bulk, meaning only special attackers have a chance at revenge kills. Electrode, Electabuzz, and Nidoking are currently the more viable special attackers that can outspeed kingler, as pokemon like kadabra and xatu fear sneasel greatly.

 

Main sets:

CB Kingler

Item : Choice Band

Ev : 252 atk | 252 speed

Nature : Adamant/Jolly

• Double-Edge
• Superpower
• Facade/Rock Tomb
• Crabhammer

Flail Kingler

Item : Salac Berry

Ev : 252 atk | 252 speed

Nature : Adamant

• Flail
• Crabhammer
• Substitute/Endure
• Sword Dance

SD Kingler

Item: Lum Berry/Leftovers

Ev : 252 atk | 252 speed

Nature : Adamant/Jolly

• Double-Edge
• Superpower
• Sword Dance
• Crabhammer

 

Damage calcs:

[spoiler]

252+ Atk Choice Band Kingler Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bellossom: 172-203 (48.5 - 57.3%) -- 46.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Kingler Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tropius: 175-206 (43.5 - 51.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Kingler Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hypno: 219-258 (58.5 - 68.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Kingler Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hitmontop: 180-213 (59.2 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Kingler Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lapras: 358-422 (77.1 - 90.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Kingler Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Walrein: 332-392 (78.3 - 92.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Kingler Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangela: 74-88 (43 - 51.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

+2 252+ Atk Kingler Flail (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangela: 164-194 (95.3 - 112.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

[/spoiler]

 

For these reasons, the Tier Council want to discuss if Kingler meets the requirements of the offensive characteristic and if it should be banned to BL2.

Please use this thread to discuss whether you believe Kingler should be moved up to BL2 or stay in NU.

[DoubleJ]

Always so quick to ban offensive threats, but the discussion on defensive stalwarts is oft ignored. Let's keep Kingler around for a few tournaments and maybe let it live in NU for eternity. The 55 base HP really hurts it and doesn't really make it as impermeable to physical threats as it's made to believe. I have hope NU can find a new image with the introduction of Kingler. Currently it's just too centralized around Sneasel, Hitmontop, Hypno, and Lapras. Toss a good wall breaker in there that doesn't fear Sneasel and we might have some excitement. 

 

252/252+ Def Lapras with Thunderbolt can scare a CB Kingler, and can even make for a 3HKO on a +2 DE with some luck. A few other sets out there on defensive pokemon that can work against Kingler too. 

[Blue]

    Kingler can be hard to counter because can be either choice banded, endure flail, sd sub + 2 attacks or sd + 3 attacks, which makes it very unpredictable.  Even though kingler sure is a powerhouse with massive attack and nice defence, in my opinion it doesnt deserve a quick ban just yet.  From what we have seen from the tier, there are many priority attackers as well as special attacking pokemon, who I am sure that will make kinglers life difficult. I would like to see kingler stay around for a bit  and see its impact in a  few  NU tournaments.

[LifeStyle]

Impish Shelgon with Toxic/Protect/Wish/Iron Defense would be fun for people who like running gimmicks (I'm a fan myself) but sub Kingler would probably make things difficult for it, anyways I don't mind having Kingler around Nu because personally Armaldo was a lot scarier,so yeah w/e

 

Here are some calcs btw

 

• 252+ Atk Choice Band Kingler Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Shelgon: 46-54 (26.7 - 31.3%) -- 37% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
• 252+ Atk Choice Band Kingler Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Shelgon: 51-61 (29.6 - 35.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
• 252+ Atk Choice Band Kingler Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Shelgon: 81-96 (47 - 55.8%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
• 252+ Atk Choice Band Kingler Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Shelgon: 81-96 (47 - 55.8%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Edited March 23, 2016 by LifeStyle

[KaynineXL]

 

Impish Shelgon with Toxic/Protect/Wish/Iron Defense would be fun for people who like running gimmicks (I'm a fan myself) but sub Kingler would probably make things difficult for it, anyways I don't mind having Kingler around Nu because personally Armaldo was a lot scarier,so yeah w/e

 

Here are some calcs btw

 

• 252+ Atk Choice Band Kingler Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Shelgon: 46-54 (26.7 - 31.3%) -- 37% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
• 252+ Atk Choice Band Kingler Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Shelgon: 51-61 (29.6 - 35.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
• 252+ Atk Choice Band Kingler Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Shelgon: 81-96 (47 - 55.8%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
• 252+ Atk Choice Band Kingler Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Shelgon: 81-96 (47 - 55.8%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Kingler doesn't learn Rock Slide :p

[LifeStyle]

Kingler doesn't learn Rock Slide :P

Hue my bad, too used to gen4 Ig

[OrangeManiac]

Yeah I absolutely agree Kingler deserves a fair chance in the NU tier. It's really scary on paper so definitely needs a discussion to begin with but no one is jumping the gun here just because a discussion thread is out.

[Robofiend]

I'm ok with the idea of giving it a tourney or two, but I think the only way to handle it is by running a bulky grass and that's going to make it really centralizing. Better to ban early than naively expect a poke this powerful to become balanced via non existent NU checks.

[KaynineXL]

I'm ok with the idea of giving it a tourney or two, but I think the only way to handle it is by running a bulky grass and that's going to make it really centralizing. Better to ban early than naively expect a poke this powerful to become balanced via non existent NU checks.

It's kinda the same as DD Whiscash now though.

 

If you don't have a grass type it's probably going to do a lot. Even more so now Crobat is gone.

[Gunthug]

It's kinda the same as DD Whiscash now though.

 

If you don't have a grass type it's probably going to do a lot. Even more so now Crobat is gone.

While I agree that dd whiscash can roll through unprepared teams, I think kingler is far scarier simply for its versatility. With pitiful base attack and speed, whiscash better be a DDer or it's probably a waste of a teamslot (i've personally never seen a CB cash but I can't imagine it's all that effective). Switching into kingler is much, much scarier since if you miscalculate and bring in a bulky grass, you could be staring down the barrel of a flail sweep. Though I do agree that NU has an above average amount of common priority moves to stop the flail set from sweeping constantly

[KaynineXL]

While I agree that dd whiscash can roll through unprepared teams, I think kingler is far scarier simply for its versatility. With pitiful base attack and speed, whiscash better be a DDer or it's probably a waste of a teamslot (i've personally never seen a CB cash but I can't imagine it's all that effective). Switching into kingler is much, much scarier since if you miscalculate and bring in a bulky grass, you could be staring down the barrel of a flail sweep. Though I do agree that NU has an above average amount of common priority moves to stop the flail set from sweeping constantly

While Kingler is quite versatile, I think Whiscash is more likely to sweep for sure provided they have no grass Pokemon. For Kingler to sweep, in most cases it needs to be the flail set which I'd imagine isn't too effective in NU with the above average priority. The other sets, while they can do a fair bit of damage to a team are probably not sweeping with Kinglers slightly low speed for an offensive Pokemon. Whiscash has only one weakness, and correct me if I'm wrong, but it's more bulky, not to mention it can invest into HP if it wishes since it can get speed from DD.

 

Kinglers CB set is threatening though, my only problem with it is, I'd say it needs to spam DE to cut through a team because every team should have a water type since they are strong in NU, DE returns damage back to you, so it can't spam that all day and it will get weakened. On top of all that, I find Kingler can have troubles coming in since it's complete paper while getting hit by special attacks and wouldn't like to get hit by invested physical attacks, maybe Hitmontop would be an alright switch in.

 

It's early days though, maybe I'v just not seen the true power of Kingler yet.

[ShadowGary]

Impish/Bold Poli/Mantine/Lapras w/ Water Absorb and Misdreavus all you need.

 

For the CB set that is.

Edited March 24, 2016 by ShadowGary

[Gunthug]

While Kingler is quite versatile, I think Whiscash is more likely to sweep for sure provided they have no grass Pokemon. For Kingler to sweep, in most cases it needs to be the flail set which I'd imagine isn't too effective in NU with the above average priority. The other sets, while they can do a fair bit of damage to a team are probably not sweeping with Kinglers slightly low speed for an offensive Pokemon. Whiscash has only one weakness, and correct me if I'm wrong, but it's more bulky, not to mention it can invest into HP if it wishes since it can get speed from DD.

 

Kinglers CB set is threatening though, my only problem with it is, I'd say it needs to spam DE to cut through a team because every team should have a water type since they are strong in NU, DE returns damage back to you, so it can't spam that all day and it will get weakened. On top of all that, I find Kingler can have troubles coming in since it's complete paper while getting hit by special attacks and wouldn't like to get hit by invested physical attacks, maybe Hitmontop would be an alright switch in.

 

It's early days though, maybe I'v just not seen the true power of Kingler yet.

You've got a point with the double edge spam, though some of the bulkier waters in NU (lapras, walrein) will be smashed by a superpower on a switch too. Wrath has seen a lot of usage lately, but it's smacked by double edge and has no real way of recovering without rest

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Kingler Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 85-100 (43.1 - 50.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

What is that, about 15% recoil? It'll wear down kingler eventually but the choice band set is probably going to be most useful breaking down walls early for something else to sweep

 

As far as hitmontop, well hyper cutter keeps him from being a good switch

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Kingler Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hitmontop: 94-112 (59.8 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Kingler Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hitmontop: 85-100 (54.1 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

 

I'm not sure if kingler will be an effective sweeper, we'll have to see. But I can definitely see it being an above average wallbreaker, bordering on overpowered. All for a test though - sometimes things like this look better on paper than they are in practice

 

E: I do agree that kingler lacks a lot of clear switch ins though

Edited March 24, 2016 by Gunthug

[Robofiend]

While Kingler is quite versatile, I think Whiscash is more likely to sweep for sure provided they have no grass Pokemon. For Kingler to sweep, in most cases it needs to be the flail set which I'd imagine isn't too effective in NU with the above average priority. The other sets, while they can do a fair bit of damage to a team are probably not sweeping with Kinglers slightly low speed for an offensive Pokemon. Whiscash has only one weakness, and correct me if I'm wrong, but it's more bulky, not to mention it can invest into HP if it wishes since it can get speed from DD.

 

Kinglers CB set is threatening though, my only problem with it is, I'd say it needs to spam DE to cut through a team because every team should have a water type since they are strong in NU, DE returns damage back to you, so it can't spam that all day and it will get weakened. On top of all that, I find Kingler can have troubles coming in since it's complete paper while getting hit by special attacks and wouldn't like to get hit by invested physical attacks, maybe Hitmontop would be an alright switch in.

 

It's early days though, maybe I'v just not seen the true power of Kingler yet.

 

Go do the calcs. Can Whiscash ever 1shot its counters? Can it break Lapras easily? 

 

I agree about DE being a double edged sword, but discounting the Flail set is a bit naive - it's pretty damn reliable, especially since Kingler breaks Hitmontop (assuming SD/Flail) with +2 Crabhammer and takes hilariously little from uninvested attacks. One thing that should be mentioned, though, is that the Flail set needs to be sure it's not coming in on Toxic, because that frankly just ruins it and status is everywhere in NU.

 

Kingler has good chances coming in on Poliwrath, Camerupt (assuming the Spdef version, not CB), Ice Punch locked Sneasel, anything that's Resting, and even a Lapras Surf. Other boosting attackers like CM Grumpig or (slow) Xatu could find themselves checked by a particularly ballsy Kingler player.

[Havsha]

Impish/Bold Poli/Mantine/Lapras w/ Water Absorb and Misdreavus all you need.

 

For the CB set that is.

mispredict may prove fatal

[KaynineXL]

You've got a point with the double edge spam, though some of the bulkier waters in NU (lapras, walrein) will be smashed by a superpower on a switch too. Wrath has seen a lot of usage lately, but it's smacked by double edge and has no real way of recovering without rest

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Kingler Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 85-100 (43.1 - 50.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

What is that, about 15% recoil? It'll wear down kingler eventually but the choice band set is probably going to be most useful breaking down walls early for something else to sweep

 

As far as hitmontop, well hyper cutter keeps him from being a good switch

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Kingler Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hitmontop: 94-112 (59.8 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Kingler Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hitmontop: 85-100 (54.1 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

 

I'm not sure if kingler will be an effective sweeper, we'll have to see. But I can definitely see it being an above average wallbreaker, bordering on overpowered. All for a test though - sometimes things like this look better on paper than they are in practice

 

E: I do agree that kingler lacks a lot of clear switch ins though

I'm sorry, I didn't mean Hitmontop is a good switch to Kingler, it's pretty terrible. I meant Kingler can probably use Hitmontop as a switch in.

 

I do agree, it's probably a good a better wallbreaker.

 

Go do the calcs. Can Whiscash ever 1shot its counters? Can it break Lapras easily? 

 

I agree about DE being a double edged sword, but discounting the Flail set is a bit naive - it's pretty damn reliable, especially since Kingler breaks Hitmontop (assuming SD/Flail) with +2 Crabhammer and takes hilariously little from uninvested attacks. One thing that should be mentioned, though, is that the Flail set needs to be sure it's not coming in on Toxic, because that frankly just ruins it and status is everywhere in NU.

 

Kingler has good chances coming in on Poliwrath, Camerupt (assuming the Spdef version, not CB), Ice Punch locked Sneasel, anything that's Resting, and even a Lapras Surf. Other boosting attackers like CM Grumpig or (slow) Xatu could find themselves checked by a particularly ballsy Kingler player.

I'm not discounting the flail set, but I'd say it's very far from reliable. Hitmontop should never be a switch in for Kingler, that's like switching it in on Gligar or Scyther, it shouldn't happen. Keeping Hitmontop alive for it's priority in mach punch on the other hand saves you from the flail set.

 

Whiscash will need bounce to ohko its counters, but I doubt they'd let him DD up that much.

 

Depends which Lapras, if we're talking about the bold set which is really tough then it can't straight up win from full health, although people run all sorts of different spreads to take hits from special, physical and mixture. Not only that, there are a lot of different Whiscash sets people like to go, from bulky to fast, lum berry to restochesto.

 

These calcs are to bold 252 hp, def Lapras.

Fast ada

[spoiler]

If Lapras switches in, you will get to +3 guaranteed before Lapras can kill you, you could try go +4 since it's only 34%-40% chance to 3hko, odds are in your favour. You'll need Lapras weakened with this set, but if it is and you kill Lapras you're probably going to sweep because you'll have plenty of health to take a priority move from anything other than Espeed Raichu. Rock Slide there if you want to go for the flinch.

6 SpA Lapras Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Whiscash: 63-75 (34 - 40.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+3 252+ Atk Whiscash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lapras: 139-165 (58.6 - 69.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+3 252+ Atk Whiscash Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lapras: 140-166 (59 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

[/spoiler]

 

Bulky Whiscash

[spoiler]

Not sure how much speed people go on this. Whiscash would be very unlucky not to get to +4 before Lapras can kill, still needs Lapras to be weakened, but once again, if Lapras dies, surely it's GG. This set could get to +6 with Resto chesto which is probably common with this set.

6 SpA Lapras Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Whiscash: 63-75 (29 - 34.5%) -- 5.1% chance to 3HKO

+4 252+ Atk Whiscash Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lapras: 168-198 (70.8 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

[/spoiler]

Edited March 24, 2016 by KaynineXL

[DoubleJ]

 Better to ban early than naively expect a poke this powerful to become balanced via non existent NU checks.

 

Then why didn't you quick ban it? After 1-2 tournaments your not going to find the consensus evidence to ban Kingler. It's just too slow and too predictable. It literally relies on 2 moves to be successful. A water-attack and a normal-attack. That's why it has so little success in UU. Flail is extremely powerful, but NU carries so much priority there will likely not be much opportunity for it to be successful. The only sets that will primarily be used are the CB and SD sets. Personally I think Lapras, Misdreavus, and all the faster special attackers in the tier can take care of it. 

 

But, if you want to ban it then you're the tier council. So feel free. 

[Gunthug]

Then why didn't you quick ban it? After 1-2 tournaments your not going to find the consensus evidence to ban Kingler. It's just too slow and too predictable. It literally relies on 2 moves to be successful. A water-attack and a normal-attack. That's why it has so little success in UU. Flail is extremely powerful, but NU carries so much priority there will likely not be much opportunity for it to be successful. The only sets that will primarily be used are the CB and SD sets. Personally I think Lapras, Misdreavus, and all the faster special attackers in the tier can take care of it. 

 

But, if you want to ban it then you're the tier council. So feel free. 

Well you can't just completely ignore superpower - water/fighting/normal coverage is pretty extensive and gives lapras a ton of issues just dry switching in. That being said, the CB set will take a lot of prediction skill to pull off early-mid game, and late game it definitely lacks the speed to be a bonafide sweeper (agility kingler when).

 

Another thing that eases my worry about the CB set is it lacks that "uber-spammable" stab move, since crabhammer has a lot of switch ins in NU that either flat out are immune to it or resist it pretty nicely. What I think a tournament or two will show, is how kingler's versatility affects the pressure kingler puts on opponents - will people fall all over themselves trying to prevent a SD or Flail set, or will scouting its set prove to be manageable? Let's hope people have kinglers ready for the next NU

[BurntZebra]

Then why didn't you quick ban it? After 1-2 tournaments your not going to find the consensus evidence to ban Kingler. It's just too slow and too predictable. It literally relies on 2 moves to be successful. A water-attack and a normal-attack. That's why it has so little success in UU. Flail is extremely powerful, but NU carries so much priority there will likely not be much opportunity for it to be successful. The only sets that will primarily be used are the CB and SD sets. Personally I think Lapras, Misdreavus, and all the faster special attackers in the tier can take care of it. 

 

But, if you want to ban it then you're the tier council. So feel free. 

Honestly, its not that slow in the current meta. Stuff like pinsir, scyther, or sneasel might be able to outspeed kingler, but they're not going to do much vs it in a 1v1 situation. If by predictable, you mean you know the ~7 moves, it still doesn't really help with switching in vs kingler. Nothing resists the combination of normal and water, and the pokemon that can take both without being 2hko'ed usually don't like switching in vs superpower. 

 

There isn't that much priority in NU currently, as the main source is hitmontop mach punch. Also most priority won't even take out a kingler substitute, meaning kingler could even set up vs a priority user. A salac set that activates at 25% hp could be quite effective when hitmontop mach punch/scyther quick attack can't even kill kingler.

 

Lapras is a very shaky answer to kingler. First, the specially defensive set is straight up ohko'ed by superpower choice band. The defensive set takes 80-93% from choice band superpower and is ohko'ed by +2 superpower. Lapras cannot ohko kingler with thunderbolt either, meaning it loses in a 1v1 situation even. Similar situation for misdreavus too, although it has a slightly better matchup being immune to superpower+normal coverage, but it will take 75-88% from choice band crahbammer and is ohko'ed by +2 crabhammer. Misdreavus thunderbolt cannot ohko either without investment, which makes it a mediocre answer as well. 

 

"All the faster special attackers" is pretty misleading. Electrode, electabuzz, and nidoking are probably the most viable special attackers currently. Stuff like kadabra, golduck, xatu, and ninetales have issues in the current meta and aren't really used much outside of specific counter teams. 

 

I do think the one thing that limits kingler is its special defense, allowing it to be 2hko'ed by things like psychic hypno, but there are still a decent amount of attackers that give kingler an opportunity to come in and force you to sack something so your special attacker can come in just to force out kingler once again. 

 

Well you can't just completely ignore superpower - water/fighting/normal coverage is pretty extensive and gives lapras a ton of issues just dry switching in. That being said, the CB set will take a lot of prediction skill to pull off early-mid game, and late game it definitely lacks the speed to be a bonafide sweeper (agility kingler when).

 

Another thing that eases my worry about the CB set is it lacks that "uber-spammable" stab move, since crabhammer has a lot of switch ins in NU that either flat out are immune to it or resist it pretty nicely. What I think a tournament or two will show, is how kingler's versatility affects the pressure kingler puts on opponents - will people fall all over themselves trying to prevent a SD or Flail set, or will scouting its set prove to be manageable? Let's hope people have kinglers ready for the next NU

Prediction obviously goes both ways in these hypothetical situations. The person playing against the kingler could potentially switch in their misdreavus or poliwrath perfectly every switch, but they could also lose a 50/50 predict and have misdreavus end up taking 80-100% from a choice band crabhammer. The prediction aspect becomes less of an issue when you realize that people usually only have 1 or 0 normal resists on a team. People usually have more than one water resist just because lapras, walrein, and poliwrath are so powerful in the current meta.

 

The different sets requiring different approaches to stop kingler is what I find most threatening. You could go to bellossom thinking kingler is a swords dance set, but then it turns out to be choice band or flail, both capable of beating bellossom. You could go lapras thinking its a sub flail set (it takes +2 flail the best out of any pokemon in NU), but then it turns out its a swords dance superpower set and get ohko'ed quickly. I think many players will find themselves taking large risks just to prevent kingler from setting up, similar to how charizard is in OU. If a kingler and lapras came in at the same time, and the lapras was at 75%, lapras might just stay in and thunderbolt just so kingler doesn't get a free turn to set up and sweep with flail, but it can meet a quick ko from choice band superpower. 

[DoubleJ]

We'll see how it plays out and what kind of usage it gets. It had one hell of a time being successful in UU, but I guess that has a lot to do with vileplume (which it still 2hko's). Looking at the offensive threats and def cores in nu compared to uu, it just seems kingler would have the same trouble, if not more considering water absorb lapras. Meta will likely shift though let's see what happens.

[Robofiend]

Tbh I think the calcs just plain prove its too strong, that's why I wanted a quickban in the first place. To me it looks like "run a bulky grass and priority or get run over by most of the sets" which just doesn't seem right.

[BurntZebra]

We'll see how it plays out and what kind of usage it gets. It had one hell of a time being successful in UU, but I guess that has a lot to do with vileplume (which it still 2hko's). Looking at the offensive threats and def cores in nu compared to uu, it just seems kingler would have the same trouble, if not more considering water absorb lapras. Meta will likely shift though let's see what happens.

Usage isn't really necessary when it comes to something (potentially) offensive uber. One of the tiering decisions I wasn't entirely happy with was how long it took zangoose to get banned from NU. Even though it was pretty clearly offensive uber, it only got 15-20% usage for a while and the logic was that "well if 80% of people aren't even running it, it must not be OP", which isn't really true. With our current breeding system, some less serious players don't bother breeding a competitive pokemon that they think might get banned in the near future, which skews the actual usage of kingler. 

 

I think it had some potential in UU, although breloom forcing everyone to run exeggutor or vileplume doesn't really help kingler much. I think it could be similar to zangoose, where it didn't get much usage in UU, but then it got discussion in NU, then people realized it was actually pretty OP in UU too. 

 

I don't think kingler will have too hard of a time wrecking the current NU teams. As long as the person runs 2 physically oriented pokemon, kingler will get some pretty easy switch ins. Most NU teams don't have a normal resist either, meaning even if they have lapras+tangela, their team can still get worn down very quickly. 

[DoubleJ]

I think I'm actually going to have to flip my own script on my recent statements on Kingler. I think a very valid point was made regarding the fact that most priority attacks from non-banded pokemon like Gligar, Hitmontop, and Scyther actually fail to do 25% damage to Kingler. This to me is a major problem for the tier. In UU, Vileplume + Steelix is a remarkable option to stop Kingler without relying on priority, especially when you consider all of the faster, harder-hitting threats that are present in the tier too. NU is a completely different tier that relies heavily on either super slower, bulky tanks or super fast squishy threats. Kingler fits nicely in the middle and has the opportunity to absolutely shred the slow walls and offensive tanks in the tier. With a sub, it also proves to be a dangerous threat to revenge killing offense such as Electabuzz, Sneasel, and Ninetales since they are just so fragile. 

 

While it might not get the usage, on paper (and after some deliberation on my part) it has proven to be broken. Let's just hope that we can see how dangerous this threat can be in the coming tournaments (if there are any, RIP). 

 

tl;dr Kingler is offensively banworthy in our NU

 

 

EDIT: Tangela is legitimately the only (sort of) safe switch-in I can find

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Kingler Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangela: 74-88 (43 - 51.1%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO

Edited March 28, 2016 by DoubleJ

[KaynineXL]

I'v got a feeling with the new bands we're going to see some new sp atkers shine in NU.

 

Special CB Kadabra and Walrein are the ones I think we'll see doing well in NU, maybe this would mean Hypno has to drop most of its physical bulk and go much more into sp def to withstand the new, more dangerous threats. I find Hypno having a hard time doing that with Sneasel about though.

 

More special attackers in the meta can only be a bad thing for Kingler. Timid Walrein is even faster than adamant Kingler(imo the most threatening nature). Sure, Kingler could pick up Swift CB, but from the looks of things, I'd say that's not a good idea at all because being locked into a weaker attack isn't that threatening, in fact it just allows more Pokes to come in easier, such as Bello, Hypno, even Lapras can survive 2 superpowers.

 

252+ Atk Kingler Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 150+ Def Hypno: 85-102 (44.2 - 53.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Kingler Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lapras: 124-148 (52.3 - 62.4%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Kingler Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangela: 50-59 (29 - 34.3%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Kingler Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bellossom: 61-72 (33.5 - 39.5%) -- 20% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Edited April 16, 2016 by KaynineXL