gbwead Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Gunthug said: Personally I am with GB on this one (what is happening) - I think it's too early to make a decision. Let's be patient and see if the meta is able to adjust to the brand new flame/toxic orb-guts set Good boi xD Edit: I tested the following Hippodown on Showdown and it looks very solid against Conkeldurr. Spoiler Hippowdon @ Rocky Helmet Ability: Sand Stream Level: 50 EVs: 176 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def / 76 Spe Impish Nature - Slack Off - Earthquake - Ice Fang - Curse Curse and Ice Fang are not needed if your team already has an answer to Bulk Up Leftovers Conkeldurr. Edited August 30, 2018 by gbwead Luke, pachima and Jaawax 3 Link to comment
MadaraSixSix Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 I always burned or poisoned conkeldurr now I need it is already burned when he come ! gbwead, DoubleJ and Jaawax 3 Link to comment
NikhilR Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 5 hours ago, gbwead said: Good boi xD Edit: I tested the following Hippodown on Showdown and it looks very solid against Conkeldurr. Hide contents Hippowdon @ Rocky Helmet Ability: Sand Stream Level: 50 EVs: 176 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def / 76 Spe Impish Nature - Slack Off - Earthquake - Ice Fang - Curse Curse and Ice Fang are not needed if your team already has an answer to Bulk Up Leftovers Conkeldurr. 76 speed evs, 0 spdef evs, and non +spdef nature on Curse Hippo doesn't seem like the ideal test to me in terms of being an answer to Conk gbwead and Laz 2 Link to comment
gbwead Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 3 minutes ago, NikhilR said: 76 speed evs, 0 spdef evs, and non +spdef nature on Curse Hippo doesn't seem like the ideal test to me in terms of being an answer to Conk Ya I hate having to run Curse on it. Link to comment
FNTCZ Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 1 hour ago, gbwead said: Ya I hate having to run Curse on it. It´s like running calm mind on an otherwise supportive blissey set to beat togekiss.. not really ideal Also to some people up in the thread.. bulk up flame orb conkel is trash lmao. its real problematic set is 4 attacks flame orb (Facade) to which my two cents go for something to indeed be done about it. RysPicz and gbwead 2 Link to comment
Takens Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 Has TC already reached a decision over this thread? Link to comment
OrangeManiac Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Takens said: Has TC already reached a decision over this thread? Every decision this big has to be thought out carefully so in the meantime let's come up with Eviolite Spoink builds to check Conkeldurr. Edited August 31, 2018 by OrangeManiac Takens, Suneet, KoolT93 and 1 other 4 Link to comment
suigin Posted August 31, 2018 Author Share Posted August 31, 2018 21 minutes ago, Takens said: Has TC already reached a decision over this thread? We haven't even had a meeting. Link to comment
OrangeManiac Posted September 2, 2018 Share Posted September 2, 2018 (edited) Just an interesting thought: If people are concerned about the metagame leaving a Conkeldurr sized hole, we do have Machamp as quite nice of an alternative to it. Sure, it doesn't have Mach Punch or it doesn't have Sheer Force while only bringing a niche No Guard alternative set to the table besides its go to Guts Flame Orb set - but if the concern was breaking stall, I don't see Machamp doing it any worse than Conkeldurr did. The difference with Conk was just the fact how effortlessly it could pick up the sweepers with Mach Punch when burnt as long as they were even slightly damaged. Now this is not to say that Conkeldurr deserves a ban any more for this reason, but mainly wanting to address the hypothetical "stall" problem some people were bringing up. Edited September 2, 2018 by OrangeManiac KOHHuiXIN, REEVS and Laz 3 Link to comment
Aard Posted September 3, 2018 Share Posted September 3, 2018 On 9/2/2018 at 3:58 AM, OrangeManiac said: Just an interesting thought: If people are concerned about the metagame leaving a Conkeldurr sized hole, we do have Machamp as quite nice of an alternative to it. The difference with Conk was just the fact how effortlessly it could pick up the sweepers with Mach Punch when burnt as long as they were even slightly damaged. Why, why, why is this left up for a day without getting torn to pieces? You fail to mention the most important difference: Machamp doesn't learn drain punch. Because of that it doesn't get any recovery meaning the flame orb guts set is worse than the no guard dynamic punch, stone edge set. If guts is run it would probably need leftovers to work and bulk up is shaky. They just aren't the same poke at all beyond typing. Still interesting stall gets a major, major buff with the update and before the meta is even in play for a month people want to ban the most effective stallbreaker. Just bad form. Let the meta settle. Maelstrom and everbroth 1 1 Link to comment
Shuck Posted September 3, 2018 Share Posted September 3, 2018 (edited) On 9/2/2018 at 7:58 AM, OrangeManiac said: Just an interesting thought: If people are concerned about the metagame leaving a Conkeldurr sized hole, we do have Machamp as quite nice of an alternative to it. Sure, it doesn't have Mach Punch or it doesn't have Sheer Force while only bringing a niche No Guard alternative set to the table besides its go to Guts Flame Orb set IMO Heracross would be a much better alternative as a Flame Orb Guts abuser, its much faster, has access to Close Combat, STAB Megahorn shits on Reun, Night Slash can take care of Cofagrigus and Jellicent with prior damage and Facade or Stone Edge are both solid for last move. People are sleeping on Heracross tbh EDIT: My bad, Machamp also gets Close Combat, but still Edited September 3, 2018 by Shuck everbroth, Zymogen and Maelstrom 1 2 Link to comment
Zymogen Posted September 3, 2018 Share Posted September 3, 2018 32 minutes ago, Shuck said: People are sleeping on Heracross tbh Been thinking this for a while, in theory it puts in a lot of work in OU Link to comment
OrangeManiac Posted September 3, 2018 Share Posted September 3, 2018 1 hour ago, Aard said: Why, why, why is this left up for a day without getting torn to pieces? I love that aggression. Keep it coming, makes the discussion threads all so much more entertaining to read. Besides, you didn't even address my point. I was making an argument about stallbreaking. Drain Punch is a move you want to use against Pokemon with weaker defenses. Again, to prove that Conkeldurr's matchup against lots of common sweepers being so good is what makes Conkeldurr so amazing as a Pokemon, not only its wallbreaking capability. 1 hour ago, Shuck said: IMO Heracross would be a much better alternative as a Flame Orb Guts abuser, its much faster, has access to Close Combat, STAB Megahorn shits on Reun, Night Slash can take care of Cofagrigus and Jellicent with prior damage and Facade or Stone Edge are both solid for last move. People are sleeping on Heracross tbh I can really agree with this. Heracross when burnt two-shots everything and while it before had a little bit sub-par coverage compared to Conkeldurr, I can really see Heracross have lots of positive traits in current OU metagame. KOHHuiXIN and Draekyn 2 Link to comment
Aard Posted September 3, 2018 Share Posted September 3, 2018 (edited) 19 minutes ago, OrangeManiac said: Drain Punch is a move you want to use against Pokemon with weaker defenses. Drain punch is on pretty much every conkeldurr set. Saying "The difference with Conk was just the fact how effortlessly it could pick up the sweepers with Mach Punch" while neglecting to mention drain punch at all is flat out lying by omission. A 40 power priority to a 60 power priority move is not the main difference between Mamchamp and Conkeldurr. And now claiming drain punch isn't useful in wallbreaking. Let's look at two of the most common stall pokes: 252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 564-666 (80.3 - 94.8%) (80.3 - 94.8% recovered) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 254-302 (72.1 - 85.7%) (36.1 - 43% recovered) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery The recovery is important and its actually more powerful than a machamp dynamic punch. After a seismic toss or possible rocky helmet iron barbs damage machamp is half dead. Ferrothorn in particular is a better matchup with conkeldurr. 252+ Atk Machamp Dynamic Punch vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 474-560 (67.5 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252+ Atk Machamp Dynamic Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 216-254 (61.3 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO You're the one with the viability ranking thread so you had to know this. I doubt its an ignorance problem so I can't help but wonder if you have other reasons for making statements that don't follow the basis of any sort of calc. The whole structure of arguing "this poke will just be replaced by this poke" isn't usually accepted in suspect discussion anyway so we will see if you get away on clout. Edited September 3, 2018 by Aard everbroth 1 Link to comment
OrangeManiac Posted September 3, 2018 Share Posted September 3, 2018 (edited) @Aard Way to quote mine and then make a long post to shoot an argument down I never made. The quote you're responding to simply means "If breaking walls was your main goal you would go for maximum damage instead of recovery but you don't want to because such a large part of Conkeldurr's viability is beating sweepers - which is why Drain Punch is a superior option." But you're absolutely right, even Drain Punch beats walls. Never argued anything else, and quite rather explains why Conk is so good. I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt before thinking "maybe I just explained my points poorly and allowed someone to misunderstand me" but this is now happening so often in various threads so in order not to get public threads become two person dialogues I'll just stop responding to you when you're respoding to me. Edited September 3, 2018 by OrangeManiac Meh, KOHHuiXIN and Draekyn 3 Link to comment
Aard Posted September 3, 2018 Share Posted September 3, 2018 (edited) 38 minutes ago, OrangeManiac said: @Aard Way to quote mine and then make a long post to shoot an argument down I never made. The quote you're responding to simply means "If breaking walls was your main goal you would go for maximum damage instead of recovery but you don't want to because such a large part of Conkeldurr's viability is beating sweepers - which is why Drain Punch is a superior option." But you're absolutely right, even Drain Punch beats walls. Never argued anything else, and quite rather explains why Conk is so good. I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt before thinking "maybe I just explained my points poorly and allowed someone to misunderstand me" but this is now happening so often in various threads so in order not to get public threads become two person dialogues I'll just stop responding to you when you're respoding to me. I just told you why drain punch is the superior option against walls. Beating the walls and still being near full health is a lot better than being hurt. Machamp can't go in and bulk up, beat the wall, then still have enough health to do things later. Conkeldurr can beat walls with drain punch and bulk up and still have plenty of health for later. You said Machamp is just as good at stallbreaking as conkeldurr when its clearly not. I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt thinking "maybe he just forgot about drain punch" but after your response its clear to me you made the machamp comment with an agenda in mind rather than facts. I hate stall probably as much as you hate conkeldurr, but if there was a chansey suspect I wouldn't sit there and claim its fine to ban it because audino will fill its vacancy. Beyond being a bad argument its just not true. Edited September 3, 2018 by Aard everbroth and Maelstrom 1 1 Link to comment
Meh Posted September 3, 2018 Share Posted September 3, 2018 1 hour ago, Aard said: I just told you why drain punch is the superior option against walls. Beating the walls and still being near full health is a lot better than being hurt. Machamp can't go in and bulk up, beat the wall, then still have enough health to do things later. Conkeldurr can beat walls with drain punch and bulk up and still have plenty of health for later. You said Machamp is just as good at stallbreaking as conkeldurr when its clearly not. I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt thinking "maybe he just forgot about drain punch" but after your response its clear to me you made the machamp comment with an agenda in mind rather than facts. I hate stall probably as much as you hate conkeldurr, but if there was a chansey suspect I wouldn't sit there and claim its fine to ban it because audino will fill its vacancy. Beyond being a bad argument its just not true. Aard is being overly aggressive here, but he does have a solid point. I can't see myself using a Machamp just for the fact that it can check chansey/blissey/ferrothorn, but it will (most of the times) ending up dying afterwards. gbwead 1 Link to comment
DrButler Posted September 3, 2018 Share Posted September 3, 2018 2 minutes ago, Meh said: Aard is being overly aggressive here, but he does have a solid point. I can't see myself using a Machamp just for the fact that it can check chansey/blissey/ferrothorn, but it will (most of the times) ending up dying afterwards. did you ever play sub champ in ou? Link to comment
Meh Posted September 3, 2018 Share Posted September 3, 2018 1 minute ago, DrButler said: did you ever play sub champ in ou? Machamp will get worn off quite quickly if it uses sub on front of a chansey/blissey, I'm pretty sure sesmic toss has enough power to break a substitute, and trying to toxic a pokemon that might have guts as it's ability seems like a bad ideia. But, no , I never used a SubChamp in OU Link to comment
DrButler Posted September 3, 2018 Share Posted September 3, 2018 3 minutes ago, Meh said: Machamp will get worn off quite quickly if it uses sub on front of a chansey/blissey, I'm pretty sure sesmic toss has enough power to break a substitute, and trying to toxic a pokemon that might have guts as it's ability seems like a bad ideia. But, no , I never used a SubChamp in OU idk, too much bs to even answer properly. try it out and you´ll realise ur post was bs. Link to comment
Maelstrom Posted September 3, 2018 Share Posted September 3, 2018 54 minutes ago, DrButler said: did you ever play sub champ in ou? How is it supposed to work? (I am legit curious) Link to comment
DrButler Posted September 3, 2018 Share Posted September 3, 2018 Just now, Maelstrom said: How is it supposed to work? (I am legit curious) keep momentum with uturn and voltswitch and smash stuff. Maelstrom 1 Link to comment
Maelstrom Posted September 3, 2018 Share Posted September 3, 2018 1 minute ago, DrButler said: keep momentum with uturn and voltswitch and smash stuff. That was fast, thanks! DrButler and pachima 2 Link to comment
RysPicz Posted September 3, 2018 Share Posted September 3, 2018 (edited) Machamp surely can (does, actually) work in UU and I am on Orange's side- it can work in OU. Compared to Guts Conk, Guts Machamp has: - Lack of STAB priority - Lack of Drain Punch, meaning that chip damage from sand, spikes, rocks, flame orb, resisted hits stacked all together will wear it down much faster - Much less physical bulk (and being faster) means taking more damage from Ferrothorn on switch, which is one of Conk's main switch-ins, also means that priority moves from the likes of Scizor, Mienshao and so on will do more damage again - Close Combat has 2x less PP than Drain Punch But also: - STAB CLOSE COMBAT WHICH REALLY F%^&*( HURTS. 252+ Atk Guts Machamp Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 109-129 (50.6 - 60%) -- 82.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery After Stealth Rock it is a 2hko - Priority Bullet Punch which is capable of dealing around 40-50% damage to Gengar, effectively meaning it has the potential of disposing of enemy Gengar if it got chipped - Machamp is naturally faster, meaning it doesn't have to invest like 220 speed EVs to outspeed things like Mantine and Skarm, effectively speaking, it can OHKO and 2hko them respectively - It's attack stat still is high enough to 2hko Reuniclus with Facade But I can't really see sub Machamp working in OU. Eternally walled by Reuniclus unless Stone Edge crit + high roll second hit. I'm not really fond of it's low PP moves (dynamic + stone edge), especially in a meta where you can see Hippo, Gliscor and Reuni on a lot of teams. Add the fact that that kind of Machamp is much easier to revenge kill due to lack of reliable, strong priority (non-guts bullet punch vs STAB Guts Mach? kek) and I can't see No Guard sub set viable in OU. I might actually give the Guts set a try in OU some day, looks very potent- mainly due to that beefy CC Edited September 3, 2018 by RysPicz I embarris. gbwead, KOHHuiXIN, Draekyn and 1 other 4 Link to comment
Meh Posted September 3, 2018 Share Posted September 3, 2018 https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-800447935 ferro with rocky helmet, https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-800450279 without rocky helmet, these are the pokemon I used Machamp @ Leftovers Ability: No Guard EVs: 212 HP / 252 Atk / 44 Spe Adamant Nature - Substitute - Dynamic Punch - Stone Edge - Thunder Punch Ferrothorn @ Rocky Helmet Ability: Iron Barbs EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def Lax Nature IVs: 0 Spe - Power Whip - Gyro Ball Hydreigon @ Choice Specs Ability: Levitate EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe Timid Nature IVs: 0 Atk - Dragon Pulse - Flamethrower - Earth Power - Flash Cannon meaning that Machamp is not a reliable check to ferrothorn https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-800453020, blissey is able to break Machamp's sub, although, Blissey's owner might switch, but what would require prediction, which is not taken in consideration here. Blissey (F) @ Leftovers Ability: Natural Cure EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD Bold Nature IVs: 0 Atk - Aromatherapy - Seismic Toss - Toxic - Soft-Boiled this replay proved the point I stated on my previous post, but nothing else. Also, I only implied that Machamp has a low surviability. And it's low base speed doesn't really help it, leading to easy revenge kills in some cases. Link to comment
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