VadimEmpoleon

From Forums Tiering Definitions:
 
What is a Check?
A pokemon that under normal conditions can beat the opposing pokemon before it is itself beaten. Switching into the opposing pokemon should usually be costly, risky or impossible depending on the situation.
 
252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Weavile: 88-105 (60.6 - 72.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
252 Atk Weavile Icicle Spear (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Serperior: 88-108 (58.6 - 72%) -- approx. 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Weavile Icicle Spear (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Serperior: 132-162 (88 - 108%) -- approx. 37.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Weavile Icicle Spear (4 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Serperior: 176-216 (117.3 - 144%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Icicle Spear (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Serperior: 132-156 (88 - 104%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Icicle Spear (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Serperior: 198-234 (132 - 156%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
Edit 1: Weavile is a Serperior check by definition, at least in most situations, but this still has nothing to do with Gallade.
Edit 2: Added CB Weavile calcs too.

Tbh the way I see it, we have 2 viable solutions:
 
1. Ban Dugtrio as a whole or nerf it to the ground
2. Ban Arena trap
 
 
Now, what about that unwritten "no uber" policy? Because if we're supposed to follow it, then it's clear that Arena trap needs to get the iron boot of ghaey. I honestly don't know how we can "fix" Dugtrio without banning it or Arena trap.
Whatever will follow, regardless if it's AT ban or Dugtrio ban, either decision is good for our OU.

@caioxlive13none of those quotes mention anything regarding its uncompetitive aspect, if you want to disagree simply say that you think its competitive, fair and skilled to delete a mon with no counterplay for it other than just not using that mon, Trapinch and Diglett can trap and delete many more mons and in a more unexpected way than Magnet Pull users do.
 
I am not going to discuss a possible uber support or unhealthy aspect of Dugtrio because its much easier to state the obvious uncompetitive aspect of Arena Trap.

Unbanning broken, to handle broken sounds like a terrible idea. Let's just work towards making the meta healthy, not destroying it even more...

@caioxlive13none of those quotes mention anything regarding its uncompetitive aspect, if you want to disagree simply say that you think its competitive, fair and skilled to delete a mon with no counterplay for it other than just not using that mon, Trapinch and Diglett can trap and delete many more mons and in a more unexpected way than Magnet Pull users do.
 
I am not going to discuss a possible uber support or unhealthy aspect of Dugtrio because its much easier to state the obvious uncompetitive aspect of Arena Trap.

be silent

Don't Ban.

I had to disagree and i'm pointing out why with some quotes.
@pachima's argument, can't quote normally cause is on an Archived thread.
 

I have to agree with everyone who wants Arena Trap ban instead of just a Dugtrio+Arena Trap ban. Neither Dugtrio, Diglett or Trapinch are too OP but the ability is completely uncompetitive by design, Magnet Pull is an ability that is completely fine because it can trap a few mons and you can prepare for it, Arena Trap on the other hand allows its users to trap a lot of mons regardless of if they can delete them or not, there are many situations in which Arena Trap will force you to lose a concrete mon without even letting you choose which one you want to lose, if it was just few mons like Tyranitar or Magnezone that suffer because of this ability it would be fine but it is a lot more than that, Dugtrio can delete many mons that are not at 100% thanks to its speed and its barely mentioned, Breloom can be deleted with Aerial Ace, Gallade regardless of item can be deleted by Dugtrio with CB+EQ or Sash+EQ+Sucker Punch, Zapdos can have trouble if it uses Smack Down, a weakened Garchomp can be deleted easily by a CB Dugtrio, Chansey can be deleted with Endeavor+EQ, and I could name a lot of other examples and none of them can be prevented, the only way to prevent is not having those mons in the field, this requires almost no skill and is completely uncompetitive, even if the situations where Dugtrio can work were much lower it would still rely in this uncompetitive aspect of Arena Trap, same thing applies for Diglett and Trapinch, even if they are not good for regular use, if they get to be useful it's because of this uncompetitive ability, Diglett getting to OHKO a Blaziken that was locked previously in another move is not fine, Trapinch getting to kill Gigalith is not fine. Regardless of the viability of Trapinch and Diglett this uncompetitive ability has no place in Singles.

I have to agree with everyone who wants Arena Trap ban instead of just a Dugtrio+Arena Trap ban. Neither Dugtrio, Diglett or Trapinch are too OP but the ability is completely uncompetitive by design, Magnet Pull is an ability that is completely fine because it can trap a few mons and you can prepare for it, Arena Trap on the other hand allows its users to trap a lot of mons regardless of if they can delete them or not, there are many situations in which Arena Trap will force you to lose a concrete mon without even letting you choose which one you want to lose, if it was just few mons like Tyranitar or Magnezone that suffer because of this ability it would be fine but it is a lot more than that, Dugtrio can delete many mons that are not at 100% thanks to its speed and its barely mentioned, Breloom can be deleted with Aerial Ace, Gallade regardless of item can be deleted by Dugtrio with CB+EQ or Sash+EQ+Sucker Punch, Zapdos can have trouble if it uses Smack Down, a weakened Garchomp can be deleted easily by a CB Dugtrio, Chansey can be deleted with Endeavor+EQ, and I could name a lot of other examples and none of them can be prevented, the only way to prevent is not having those mons in the field, this requires almost no skill and is completely uncompetitive, even if the situations where Dugtrio can work were much lower it would still rely in this uncompetitive aspect of Arena Trap, same thing applies for Diglett and Trapinch, even if they are not good for regular use, if they get to be useful it's because of this uncompetitive ability, Diglett getting to OHKO a Blaziken that was locked previously in another move is not fine, Trapinch getting to kill Gigalith is not fine. Regardless of the viability of Trapinch and Diglett this uncompetitive ability has no place in Singles.

I have to agree with everyone who wants Arena Trap ban instead of just a Dugtrio+Arena Trap ban. Neither Dugtrio, Diglett or Trapinch are too OP but the ability is completely uncompetitive by design, Magnet Pull is an ability that is completely fine because it can trap a few mons and you can prepare for it, Arena Trap on the other hand allows its users to trap a lot of mons regardless of if they can delete them or not, there are many situations in which Arena Trap will force you to lose a concrete mon without even letting you choose which one you want to lose, if it was just few mons like Tyranitar or Magnezone that suffer because of this ability it would be fine but it is a lot more than that, Dugtrio can delete many mons that are not at 100% thanks to its speed and its barely mentioned, Breloom can be deleted with Aerial Ace, Gallade regardless of item can be deleted by Dugtrio with CB+EQ or Sash+EQ+Sucker Punch, Zapdos can have trouble if it uses Smack Down, a weakened Garchomp can be deleted easily by a CB Dugtrio, Chansey can be deleted with Endeavor+EQ, and I could name a lot of other examples and none of them can be prevented, the only way to prevent is not having those mons in the field, this requires almost no skill and is completely uncompetitive, even if the situations where Dugtrio can work were much lower it would still rely in this uncompetitive aspect of Arena Trap, same thing applies for Diglett and Trapinch, even if they are not good for regular use, if they get to be useful it's because of this uncompetitive ability, Diglett getting to OHKO a Blaziken that was locked previously in another move is not fine, Trapinch getting to kill Gigalith is not fine. Regardless of the viability of Trapinch and Diglett this uncompetitive ability has no place in Singles.

I have to agree with everyone who wants Arena Trap ban instead of just a Dugtrio+Arena Trap ban. Neither Dugtrio, Diglett or Trapinch are too OP but the ability is completely uncompetitive by design, Magnet Pull is an ability that is completely fine because it can trap a few mons and you can prepare for it, Arena Trap on the other hand allows its users to trap a lot of mons regardless of if they can delete them or not, there are many situations in which Arena Trap will force you to lose a concrete mon without even letting you choose which one you want to lose, if it was just few mons like Tyranitar or Magnezone that suffer because of this ability it would be fine but it is a lot more than that, Dugtrio can delete many mons that are not at 100% thanks to its speed and its barely mentioned, Breloom can be deleted with Aerial Ace, Gallade regardless of item can be deleted by Dugtrio with CB+EQ or Sash+EQ+Sucker Punch, Zapdos can have trouble if it uses Smack Down, a weakened Garchomp can be deleted easily by a CB Dugtrio, Chansey can be deleted with Endeavor+EQ, and I could name a lot of other examples and none of them can be prevented, the only way to prevent is not having those mons in the field, this requires almost no skill and is completely uncompetitive, even if the situations where Dugtrio can work were much lower it would still rely in this uncompetitive aspect of Arena Trap, same thing applies for Diglett and Trapinch, even if they are not good for regular use, if they get to be useful it's because of this uncompetitive ability, Diglett getting to OHKO a Blaziken that was locked previously in another move is not fine, Trapinch getting to kill Gigalith is not fine. Regardless of the viability of Trapinch and Diglett this uncompetitive ability has no place in Singles.

Mons get banned based on facts, not assumptions. The fact that Diglett is not NU or UU by usage is more than enough to demonstrate that it's not something to be concerned about.

Please do move the focus of the suspect to Arena Trap and not Dugtrio. Diglett can still do most of dugtrio's stuff since it gets endeavor and has pretty decent speed

Hi, I've confirmed you were affected by this and have refunded you the Reward Points spent on shiny charm/donator status as well as some extra.
 
We will implement a solution to prevent this from happening to users in the future.

Gallade
Now that new answers to Gallade are confirmed to be released in the upcoming updates I believe that the best thing to do is keep as it is until the new answers to Gallade are released just like Rache said.
 
Dugtrio and Arena Trap
When it comes to Dugtrio, I believe Dugtrio does not fit the Uber Support characteristic but is uncompetitive so Arena Trap+Dugtrio should be complex banned. I'd rather ban Arena Trap as a whole because even if Trapinch and Diglett are not very interesting mons if they get to be used with this ability they will still rely on the uncompetitive aspect of this ability which can't be consistently prevented like Pursuit or Magnet Pull. I know some will disagree with an Arena Trap ban so probably the best thing to do is the complex ban on Dugtrio because I don't think anyone would care much about Trapinch or Diglett having it. Not going to give many arguments now on why I think this way because there isn't a discussion going on for it right now. If the ban happened I totally disagree with doing any other thing that is not the Arena Trap+Dugtrio complex ban because removing moves or reducing stats seems like a more obtrusive way to me. It should also be removed from BL if AT+Dugtrio complex ban happens.
 
Opening a discussion for it right now seems like the best option imo. I believe there is nothing in the Tier Policies against it. It would be a good idea to add a Tier Policy that sets a period of time in which a ban can't be voted again to happen after being rejected unless important changes happen within the tier (this case) to prevent situations like this.
 
Shaymin
It should be retested in UU, Mandibuzz always countered it. Stalling Seed Flare was also always a good way of dealing with it. And of course Entei, Salamence, Raikou, Ninetales are now in the tier and can annoy Shaymin.
 
Yanmega
Like I said in the NU Discussion Thread I think the best thing is doing a suspect test for 1 month.
 
Rhyperior
I think this mon also deserves a suspect test, it was banned long ago and all I can see in this mon is a better Rhydon, slightly better stats and better ability.
 
Recovery moves PP nerf
While I understand that for consistency they have 8 PP, this affects the metagame in a bad way, this increases the viability of Regenerator mons and Wish mons which were already very viable when recovery moves had 16 PP but reduces the viability of other defensive mons, it also affects the viability of some setup sweepers like Reuniclus or Sigilyph. This change adds nothing positive. A similar case are the gems which still have their 50% boost instead of the 30% and this is a good thing because they become useless with a 30% boost. Returning the recovery moves to 16 PP is just a single change and would affect positively every tier, I believe this is a very good reason to do it.
 
Acupressure
This move should be included in the evasion Clause along with Minimize and Double Team.
 
Vaporeon
¿?
 
Crawdaunt
¿?

Gallade
Now that new answers to Gallade are confirmed to be released in the upcoming updates I believe that the best thing to do is keep as it is until the new answers to Gallade are released just like Rache said.
 
Dugtrio and Arena Trap
When it comes to Dugtrio, I believe Dugtrio does not fit the Uber Support characteristic but is uncompetitive so Arena Trap+Dugtrio should be complex banned. I'd rather ban Arena Trap as a whole because even if Trapinch and Diglett are not very interesting mons if they get to be used with this ability they will still rely on the uncompetitive aspect of this ability which can't be consistently prevented like Pursuit or Magnet Pull. I know some will disagree with an Arena Trap ban so probably the best thing to do is the complex ban on Dugtrio because I don't think anyone would care much about Trapinch or Diglett having it. Not going to give many arguments now on why I think this way because there isn't a discussion going on for it right now. If the ban happened I totally disagree with doing any other thing that is not the Arena Trap+Dugtrio complex ban because removing moves or reducing stats seems like a more obtrusive way to me. It should also be removed from BL if AT+Dugtrio complex ban happens.
 
Opening a discussion for it right now seems like the best option imo. I believe there is nothing in the Tier Policies against it. It would be a good idea to add a Tier Policy that sets a period of time in which a ban can't be voted again to happen after being rejected unless important changes happen within the tier (this case) to prevent situations like this.
 
Shaymin
It should be retested in UU, Mandibuzz always countered it. Stalling Seed Flare was also always a good way of dealing with it. And of course Entei, Salamence, Raikou, Ninetales are now in the tier and can annoy Shaymin.
 
Yanmega
Like I said in the NU Discussion Thread I think the best thing is doing a suspect test for 1 month.
 
Rhyperior
I think this mon also deserves a suspect test, it was banned long ago and all I can see in this mon is a better Rhydon, slightly better stats and better ability.
 
Recovery moves PP nerf
While I understand that for consistency they have 8 PP, this affects the metagame in a bad way, this increases the viability of Regenerator mons and Wish mons which were already very viable when recovery moves had 16 PP but reduces the viability of other defensive mons, it also affects the viability of some setup sweepers like Reuniclus or Sigilyph. This change adds nothing positive. A similar case are the gems which still have their 50% boost instead of the 30% and this is a good thing because they become useless with a 30% boost. Returning the recovery moves to 16 PP is just a single change and would affect positively every tier, I believe this is a very good reason to do it.
 
Acupressure
This move should be included in the evasion Clause along with Minimize and Double Team.
 
Vaporeon
¿?
 
Crawdaunt
¿?

Gallade
Now that new answers to Gallade are confirmed to be released in the upcoming updates I believe that the best thing to do is keep as it is until the new answers to Gallade are released just like Rache said.
 
Dugtrio and Arena Trap
When it comes to Dugtrio, I believe Dugtrio does not fit the Uber Support characteristic but is uncompetitive so Arena Trap+Dugtrio should be complex banned. I'd rather ban Arena Trap as a whole because even if Trapinch and Diglett are not very interesting mons if they get to be used with this ability they will still rely on the uncompetitive aspect of this ability which can't be consistently prevented like Pursuit or Magnet Pull. I know some will disagree with an Arena Trap ban so probably the best thing to do is the complex ban on Dugtrio because I don't think anyone would care much about Trapinch or Diglett having it. Not going to give many arguments now on why I think this way because there isn't a discussion going on for it right now. If the ban happened I totally disagree with doing any other thing that is not the Arena Trap+Dugtrio complex ban because removing moves or reducing stats seems like a more obtrusive way to me. It should also be removed from BL if AT+Dugtrio complex ban happens.
 
Opening a discussion for it right now seems like the best option imo. I believe there is nothing in the Tier Policies against it. It would be a good idea to add a Tier Policy that sets a period of time in which a ban can't be voted again to happen after being rejected unless important changes happen within the tier (this case) to prevent situations like this.
 
Shaymin
It should be retested in UU, Mandibuzz always countered it. Stalling Seed Flare was also always a good way of dealing with it. And of course Entei, Salamence, Raikou, Ninetales are now in the tier and can annoy Shaymin.
 
Yanmega
Like I said in the NU Discussion Thread I think the best thing is doing a suspect test for 1 month.
 
Rhyperior
I think this mon also deserves a suspect test, it was banned long ago and all I can see in this mon is a better Rhydon, slightly better stats and better ability.
 
Recovery moves PP nerf
While I understand that for consistency they have 8 PP, this affects the metagame in a bad way, this increases the viability of Regenerator mons and Wish mons which were already very viable when recovery moves had 16 PP but reduces the viability of other defensive mons, it also affects the viability of some setup sweepers like Reuniclus or Sigilyph. This change adds nothing positive. A similar case are the gems which still have their 50% boost instead of the 30% and this is a good thing because they become useless with a 30% boost. Returning the recovery moves to 16 PP is just a single change and would affect positively every tier, I believe this is a very good reason to do it.
 
Acupressure
This move should be included in the evasion Clause along with Minimize and Double Team.
 
Vaporeon
¿?
 
Crawdaunt
¿?

Returning it to 1.5x was the result of a 5-1 tier council vote in late November, unrelated to the legendary birds. To my understanding it was largely the belief that the initial ban/nerf was too hasty mixed with a dislike for 1.4x on principle.
 
We'll be introducing some more answers to Gallade with the raid update. Although we'd (devs) prefer to keep it in the tier until then to avoid the disruptive process of removing then reintroducing it soon after, the tier council is still allowed to ban it if they believe that it's too broken to wait. You're welcome to make a case for a ban in the OU discussion request thread.

TC never made an announcement about it. It was announced in a changelog. That's why most of us are assuming it was a devs decision and TC had nothing to do with it.

 

From Forums Tiering Definitions:
 
What is a Check?
A pokemon that under normal conditions can beat the opposing pokemon before it is itself beaten. Switching into the opposing pokemon should usually be costly, risky or impossible depending on the situation.
 
252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Weavile: 88-105 (60.6 - 72.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
252 Atk Weavile Icicle Spear (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Serperior: 88-108 (58.6 - 72%) -- approx. 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Weavile Icicle Spear (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Serperior: 132-162 (88 - 108%) -- approx. 37.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Weavile Icicle Spear (4 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Serperior: 176-216 (117.3 - 144%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Icicle Spear (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Serperior: 132-156 (88 - 104%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Icicle Spear (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Serperior: 198-234 (132 - 156%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
Edit 1: Weavile is a Serperior check by definition, at least in most situations, but this still has nothing to do with Gallade.
Edit 2: Added CB Weavile calcs too.

[PØRY] PorygonFactory
Registered Players: VadimEmpoleon, cjmystogan, bocajrmatt, SergioAnibal, PEPEDLT, PowerLolxD, lolsmokee, ShiroKumma, aspacee, byexe, xMayonesa, RobertLegende, Pollitojjk, HaxNotFunny, JoserraJR
Team Captain: VadimEmpoleon

[PØRY] PorygonFactory
Registered Players: VadimEmpoleon, cjmystogan, bocajrmatt, SergioAnibal, PEPEDLT, PowerLolxD, lolsmokee, ShiroKumma, aspacee, byexe, xMayonesa, RobertLegende, Pollitojjk, HaxNotFunny, JoserraJR
Team Captain: VadimEmpoleon

[PØRY] PorygonFactory
Registered Players: VadimEmpoleon, cjmystogan, bocajrmatt, SergioAnibal, PEPEDLT, PowerLolxD, lolsmokee, ShiroKumma, aspacee, byexe, xMayonesa, RobertLegende, Pollitojjk, HaxNotFunny, JoserraJR
Team Captain: VadimEmpoleon

[PØRY] PorygonFactory
Registered Players: VadimEmpoleon, cjmystogan, bocajrmatt, SergioAnibal, PEPEDLT, PowerLolxD, lolsmokee, ShiroKumma, aspacee, byexe, xMayonesa, RobertLegende, Pollitojjk, HaxNotFunny, JoserraJR
Team Captain: VadimEmpoleon