May 2024 Movement Discussion Thread

[Munya]

First month, 5.5 up to go up, 3 down to move down.

 

To UU from NU:

Quagsire - 6.81% usage in UU

 

To NU from UU:

Yanmega - 2.91% usage in UU

 

There is also an ongoing vote(will be concluded at the time tier changes go live in game in a few days) to retest Shaymin in UU.

[RysPicz]

Two questions, one request:

 

1. Are we really allowing Yanmega to drop to NU?

2. When can we re-test Dugtrio for a potential ban?

3. Caio please do not quote me

[SweeTforU]

 

3 minutes ago, Munya said:

First month, 5.5 up to go up, 3 down to move down.

 

To UU from NU:

Quagsire - 6.81% usage in UU

 

To NU from UU:

Yanmega - 2.91% usage in UU

 

There is also an ongoing vote(will be concluded at the time tier changes go live in game in a few days) to retest Shaymin in UU.

love that

[Munya]

45 minutes ago, RysPicz said:

Two questions, one request:

 

1. Are we really allowing Yanmega to drop to NU?

2. When can we re-test Dugtrio for a potential ban?

3. Caio please do not quote me

1. Make an argument for why it should forgo testing. 

2. Its already in the tier unless you mean testing it in UU, if not then you need to convince TC that its banworthy.

[razimove]

4 minutes ago, Munya said:

Make an argument for why it should forgo testing

on April thread people have been discussing it if im not mistaken. Could also use the TC team to test this out. NU has 2 valid Yanmega counters with it being gigalith (no reliable self recover) and golbat, I need to calc mantine, but what else might be able to prevent it from snowballing games?

[RysPicz]

14 minutes ago, Munya said:

2. Its already in the tier unless you mean testing it in UU, if not then you need to convince TC that its banworthy.

I meant raising another official dugtrio discussion to finally get it out from our metagame. I can't stress enough how horrible was TC's decision to allow dugtrio to stay

[Sargeste]

We already banned Venomoth who is FAR less immediately threatening than Yanmega. Why would it not be suspect tested?

[Imperial]

1 hour ago, Munya said:

1. Make an argument for why it should forgo testing. 

 

With a very impressive base speed stat of 95, it outspeeds many of the offensive threats we have in the tier (Rotom/Rotom-F, Blaziken, Qwilfish, Braviary, Stoutland, Moltres, Kangaskhan) and speed ties with Houndoom, Sawsbuck & Drapion which is a risky 50/50. The only non-scarfers that would be faster (not including scarfers and Sharpedo with speed boost), would be Scyther, Cinccino, Charizard, Typhlosion, Galvantula, Manectric, Alakazam and potentially a few more).

 

It has two amazing abilities, the first one being Tinted Lens, with its already impressive 116 base special attack, we've seen how good of a wallbreaker it is in UU with Choice Specs, admittedly the only reason it dropped to NU in the first place is because of the weather MUs, Entei/Raikou and Salamence we've been consistently seeing in teams. NU, being a much more fragile tier, has several mons that will struggle to switch into this. 

 

The special walls in the tier are the following:

• Lanturn, Altaria, Audino, Cryogonal, Gigalith, Bronzor, Lickilicky, Golbat, Mantine, Milotic, Slowking
  • (apologies if I missed a few)

The most common moveset for this set would be - Bug Buzz, Air Slash, Giga Drain, Psychic (U-turn is also a very good option to pivot out and gain that momentum). However, I'll be using Bug Buzz as it's the strongest move for it considering its STAB:

 

252 SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lanturn: 93-109 (40 - 46.9%) -- 38.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Altaria: 76-90 (41.7 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino: 85-102 (40.4 - 48.5%) -- 67.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Cryogonal: 63-75 (35.5 - 42.3%) -- 84% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gigalith in Sand: 64-76 (33.3 - 39.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Bronzor: 58-69 (35.3 - 42%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock (once Bronzor rests it's a sitting duck)

252 SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lickilicky: 79-94 (36.4 - 43.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Golbat: 30-36 (16.4 - 19.7%) -- 8.7% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Golbat: 82-98 (45 - 53.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mantine: 60-72 (34.8 - 41.8%) -- 79.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Milotic: 67-79 (33.1 - 39.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking: 146-174 (72.2 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

*Bear in mind that Yanmega can also run other moves which are more effective, for example Giga Drain on Milotic and Psychic for Golbat, although it requires more prediction from the user.

 

As you can see, although Yanmega has a massive drawback of having a x4 weakness to rocks, the majority of its safest checks are also vulnerable to switching in safely due to their weakness to rocks. The majority of these walls are also passive (e.g. Audino/Bronzor), meaning it's difficult to chip this down without getting rocks on the Yanmega's players field. The best check would be Gigalith, but it has no self-recovery unless you want to play a niche rest set. We've suspect tested and banned Venomoth with a similar ability and sweeping potential, and we also banned Medicham for its huge wallbreaking power for the tier.

 

We also have AV Eelektross, Dusknoir, Druddigon & Magmortar as potential checks but as you can see they can't safely switch in:

 

252 SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Magmortar: 76-90 (50.6 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Eelektross: 85-102 (44.2 - 53.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Dusknoir: 56-66 (36.8 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Assault Vest Druddigon: 72-85 (39.1 - 46.1%) -- 23.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

 

Now let's focus on its other ability, Speed Boost. Unlike Sharpedo, Yanmega has a very high base speed where using Protect isn't mandatory compared to Sharpedo in case its outsped by faster threats like max speed Rotom, etc. Once set up, Yanmega can pretty much clean the majority of offensive Pokemon except for scarf Cincinno, Houndoom (which is rare) and potentially a few others.

(Small correction, Yanmega has the same base speed as Sharpedo but the majority of Sharpedo don't run a speed boosting nature meaning it's slower as in the examples above)

 

The set for this ability would be - Air Slash, Giga Drain, Bug Buzz, Psychic (swapping Giga Drain for U-Turn/Protect if needed).

 

This is a Pokemon where players can just brainlessly spam Bug Buzz as long as they lead correctly, pressuring several/majority of the Pokemon in a fragile tier where even Pokemon which were originally great in OU/UU (e.g. Milotic and Gigalith) can feel pressured against it.

 

THAT'S NOT ALL...

 

If we want to be really niche, Yanmega although having an average attack stat, can boost itself with Swords Dance (I know barely anyone will use this set but I thought it would be worth mentioning as it could catch people out especially with Speed Boost).

 

It can also tank some hits on the physical side:

252+ Atk Piloswine Ice Shard vs. 6 HP / 0 Def Yanmega: 72-86 (44.4 - 53%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

*Piloswine attempting to revenge kill with Ice Shard

 

252+ Atk Absol Sucker Punch vs. 6 HP / 0 Def Yanmega: 85-102 (52.4 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

*Does not kill if crit is not activated and rocks aren't set up against Yanmega

 

Drawbacks

It has a x4 weakness to rocks and its typing is not the best (weak to fire, electric, rock), however, its very impressive base speed/special attack, ability and decent movepool is enough to make up for its weaknesses as the majority of the tier does not want to switch into this. 

 

Yanmega should be suspect tested at the very minimum.

Edited April 26 by Imperial

[pachima]

medicham 2.0. 

Surely yanmega won't be a problem this time.

[gbwead]

Looking at the January 2019 UU metagame, Yanmegga seemed very difficult to stop as well and yet it never got banned:

Spoiler

Absol | Alakazam | Azumarill | Blaziken | Bronzong |  Crobat | Dusclops | Flygon | Forretress | Galvantula | Gigalith | Gligar | Heracross | Houndoom | Jellicent | Krookodile | Lanturn | Machamp | Magneton | Mandibuzz | Mantine | Medicham | Rhyperior | Roserade | Scrafty | Sigilyph | Slowbro | Snorlax | Torkoal | Typhlosion | Umbreon | Vaporeon | Venomoth | Venusaur  | Weezing | Weavile | Yanmega

Most of these mons are NU today. Sure, NU doesn't have Crobat and Snorlax, but NU still has Gigalith, Mantine, Milotic, Golbat, Cryogonal (btw @Imperial you calced Cryogonal with 70 base hp instead of 80), etc.

 

I'm very confident Yanmegga will be unhealthy, but that's not a reason to ban something without testing it out.

[Luke]

3 hours ago, RysPicz said:

I meant raising another official dugtrio discussion to finally get it out from our metagame. I can't stress enough how horrible was TC's decision to allow dugtrio to stay

 

Honestly TC did not even make a decision, it was a hung jury & it just got dismissed... Generally TC decisions are pretty unanimous, so something which forces a split down the middle definitely should be re-evaluated.

 

 

 

 

I was not active during this vote, but only 2 tier council members spoke about their opinion on the matter publicly which is quite frankly a disgrace imo. All the arguments for keeping dugtrio are so disingenuous and insane straw mans; reaching for the most tiny errors in peoples posts ignoring the important points. I checked the old thread and this post by the goat summed up the scenario in a matter of >30 words.

 

 

 

 

I don't care if Dug isn't strong vs you, I don't give a crap if in your PSL games dugtrio did nothing against you. The reality is dug is completely uncompetitive & restricts the tier on a level no other mon currently does (aside from Gallade which is a whole different issue). Bringing up pursuit, tons of random tiny points & comparing it to adv dug which has barely any momentum gaining moves like MMO's meta is ridiculous. Get rid of it. I am tired of 1/5 of the tier being unusable if you don't want to auto lose against these uncompetitive dug stall teams.

-> Nerf ATK to 80, Remove SD + Endeavor 

Edited April 26 by Luke

[DoubleJ]

I do agree that Dugtrio should be revisited but the vote and final decision only ended 2 months ago. Give it some time, at least a full season.

 

Regarding Yanmega, it's probably too good for NU. TC will let y'all know what we plan to do. 

[Huargensy]

I've been arguing  about the sand trap problem for so long that I don't even bother talking about it anymore.

[RysPicz]

22 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

I do agree that Dugtrio should be revisited but the vote and final decision only ended 2 months ago. Give it some time, at least a full season.

 

Regarding Yanmega, it's probably too good for NU. TC will let y'all know what we plan to do. 

I honestly don't think we should wait so long to revise Dug. It's an ongoing problem and I believe we should take action as soon as possible, seeing how the vote was split, how lengthy the discussion was and how dug's endeavor became so prominent.

[VadimEmpoleon]

Was it ever confirmed why Sharpness was reversed to x1.5?

[gbwead]

3 minutes ago, VadimEmpoleon said:

Was it ever confirmed why Sharpness was reversed to x1.5?

TC never made an announcement about it. It was announced in a changelog. That's why most of us are assuming it was a devs decision and TC had nothing to do with it.

 

[VadimEmpoleon]

@Rache sorry for bothering you but I wanted to ask why Sharpness was reversed back to x1.5, I believed it could be because of the adittion of Zapdos in the same update but a confirmation would be really helpful and what could we do if we believed it's banworthy in OU, would the same method of asking for a discussion thread still apply in

this case? Thank you in advance.

[caioxlive13]

17 minutes ago, VadimEmpoleon said:

@Rache sorry for bothering you but I wanted to ask why Sharpness was reversed back to x1.5, I believed it could be because of the adittion of Zapdos in the same update but a confirmation would be really helpful and what could we do if we believed it's banworthy in OU, would the same method of asking for a discussion thread still apply in

this case? Thank you in advance.

I think so. Or they dragged back to 1,5x to cancel part of the PvP-only nerfs to apply the new policy about bans. But gave Gallade a shot since Zapdos came. But let's focus on the big fishes please, banning things that should be banned/reworked a long ago like Dugtrio and Regen + Time Limit. I don't wanna see gallade banned right now because idk any other thing able to hold all Regenerator/Poison Heal mons at once, and they could be popping out every time like it happened right after gallade was banned first time(Back then the meta was toxic. And just gallade on teambuild pressurized the teams so you don't even need to use one to put all 4 in check, so an stall abusing of them was not something common.). Dugtrio there is nothing to comment. Once those issues are solved, we can look at gallade.

Edited April 26 by caioxlive13

[Rache]

8 minutes ago, VadimEmpoleon said:

@Rache sorry for bothering you but I wanted to ask why Sharpness was reversed back to x1.5, I believed it could be because of the adittion of Zapdos in the same update but a confirmation would be really helpful and what could we do if we believed it's banworthy in OU, would the same method of asking for a discussion thread still apply in

this case? Thank you in advance.

Returning it to 1.5x was the result of a 5-1 tier council vote in late November, unrelated to the legendary birds. To my understanding it was largely the belief that the initial ban/nerf was too hasty mixed with a dislike for 1.4x on principle.

 

We'll be introducing some more answers to Gallade with the raid update. Although we'd (devs) prefer to keep it in the tier until then to avoid the disruptive process of removing then reintroducing it soon after, the tier council is still allowed to ban it if they believe that it's too broken to wait. You're welcome to make a case for a ban in the OU discussion request thread.

[Imperial]

3 minutes ago, Rache said:

Returning it to 1.5x was the result of a 5-1 tier council vote in late November, unrelated to the legendary birds. To my understanding it was largely the belief that the initial ban/nerf was too hasty mixed with a dislike for 1.4x on principle.

 

We'll be introducing some more answers to Gallade with the raid update. Although we'd (devs) prefer to keep it in the tier until then to avoid the disruptive process of removing then reintroducing it soon after, the tier council is still allowed to ban it if they believe that it's too broken to wait. You're welcome to make a case for a ban in the OU discussion request thread.

Please not regen...

[RysPicz]

24 minutes ago, Imperial said:

Please not regen...

NO NO NO

 

PLEASE, REGENS

Spoiler

and Terrakion along with them

 

[caioxlive13]

53 minutes ago, Rache said:

Returning it to 1.5x was the result of a 5-1 tier council vote in late November, unrelated to the legendary birds. To my understanding it was largely the belief that the initial ban/nerf was too hasty mixed with a dislike for 1.4x on principle.

 

We'll be introducing some more answers to Gallade with the raid update. Although we'd (devs) prefer to keep it in the tier until then to avoid the disruptive process of removing then reintroducing it soon after, the tier council is still allowed to ban it if they believe that it's too broken to wait. You're welcome to make a case for a ban in the OU discussion request thread.

Thanks for clarify

 

What you've said @gbwead, that TC didn't take part into the decision of undo the nerfs?

[Munya]

He said that everybody assumed, not that it was fact.  Before this tangent goes any further lets please not derail the topic.

[Imperial]

5 hours ago, Imperial said:

 

With a very impressive base speed stat of 95, it outspeeds many of the offensive threats we have in the tier (Rotom/Rotom-F, Blaziken, Qwilfish, Braviary, Stoutland, Moltres, Kangaskhan) and speed ties with Houndoom, Sawsbuck & Drapion which is a risky 50/50. The only non-scarfers that would be faster (not including scarfers and Sharpedo with speed boost), would be Scyther, Cinccino, Charizard, Typhlosion, Galvantula, Manectric, Alakazam and potentially a few more).

 

It has two amazing abilities, the first one being Tinted Lens, with its already impressive 116 base special attack, we've seen how good of a wallbreaker it is in UU with Choice Specs, admittedly the only reason it dropped to NU in the first place is because of the weather MUs, Entei/Raikou and Salamence we've been consistently seeing in teams. NU, being a much more fragile tier, has several mons that will struggle to switch into this. 

 

The special walls in the tier are the following:

• Lanturn, Altaria, Audino, Cryogonal, Gigalith, Bronzor, Lickilicky, Golbat, Mantine, Milotic, Slowking
  • (apologies if I missed a few)

The most common moveset for this set would be - Bug Buzz, Air Slash, Giga Drain, Psychic (U-turn is also a very good option to pivot out and gain that momentum). However, I'll be using Bug Buzz as it's the strongest move for it considering its STAB:

 

252 SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lanturn: 93-109 (40 - 46.9%) -- 38.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Altaria: 76-90 (41.7 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino: 85-102 (40.4 - 48.5%) -- 67.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Cryogonal: 63-75 (35.5 - 42.3%) -- 84% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gigalith in Sand: 64-76 (33.3 - 39.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Bronzor: 58-69 (35.3 - 42%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock (once Bronzor rests it's a sitting duck)

252 SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lickilicky: 79-94 (36.4 - 43.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Golbat: 30-36 (16.4 - 19.7%) -- 8.7% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Golbat: 82-98 (45 - 53.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mantine: 60-72 (34.8 - 41.8%) -- 79.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Milotic: 67-79 (33.1 - 39.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking: 146-174 (72.2 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

*Bear in mind that Yanmega can also run other moves which are more effective, for example Giga Drain on Milotic and Psychic for Golbat, although it requires more prediction from the user.

 

As you can see, although Yanmega has a massive drawback of having a x4 weakness to rocks, the majority of its safest checks are also vulnerable to switching in safely due to their weakness to rocks. The majority of these walls are also passive (e.g. Audino/Bronzor), meaning it's difficult to chip this down without getting rocks on the Yanmega's players field. The best check would be Gigalith, but it has no self-recovery unless you want to play a niche rest set. We've suspect tested and banned Venomoth with a similar ability and sweeping potential, and we also banned Medicham for its huge wallbreaking power for the tier.

 

We also have AV Eelektross, Dusknoir, Druddigon & Magmortar as potential checks but as you can see they can't safely switch in:

 

252 SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Magmortar: 76-90 (50.6 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Eelektross: 85-102 (44.2 - 53.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Dusknoir: 56-66 (36.8 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Assault Vest Druddigon: 72-85 (39.1 - 46.1%) -- 23.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

 

Now let's focus on its other ability, Speed Boost. Unlike Sharpedo, Yanmega has a very high base speed where using Protect isn't mandatory compared to Sharpedo in case its outsped by faster threats like max speed Rotom, etc. Once set up, Yanmega can pretty much clean the majority of offensive Pokemon except for scarf Cincinno, Houndoom (which is rare) and potentially a few others.

(Small correction, Yanmega has the same base speed as Sharpedo but the majority of Sharpedo don't run a speed boosting nature meaning it's slower as in the examples above)

 

The set for this ability would be - Air Slash, Giga Drain, Bug Buzz, Psychic (swapping Giga Drain for U-Turn/Protect if needed).

 

This is a Pokemon where players can just brainlessly spam Bug Buzz as long as they lead correctly, pressuring several/majority of the Pokemon in a fragile tier where even Pokemon which were originally great in OU/UU (e.g. Milotic and Gigalith) can feel pressured against it.

 

THAT'S NOT ALL...

 

If we want to be really niche, Yanmega although having an average attack stat, can boost itself with Swords Dance (I know barely anyone will use this set but I thought it would be worth mentioning as it could catch people out especially with Speed Boost).

 

It can also tank some hits on the physical side:

252+ Atk Piloswine Ice Shard vs. 6 HP / 0 Def Yanmega: 72-86 (44.4 - 53%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

*Piloswine attempting to revenge kill with Ice Shard

 

252+ Atk Absol Sucker Punch vs. 6 HP / 0 Def Yanmega: 85-102 (52.4 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

*Does not kill if crit is not activated and rocks aren't set up against Yanmega

 

Drawbacks

It has a x4 weakness to rocks and its typing is not the best (weak to fire, electric, rock), however, its very impressive base speed/special attack, ability and decent movepool is enough to make up for its weaknesses as the majority of the tier does not want to switch into this. 

 

Yanmega should be suspect tested at the very minimum.

@Munya

[Ziiiiio]

UU now has Bronzong, Entei and Mandibuzz. It is time to drop shaymin

 

Also it has Politoed, we could test Torkoal UU