April 2023 Movement Discussion Thread

[gbwead]

Just now, Munya said:

Then the TC needs to express an interest in going back.

They never expressed an interest in that idea to begin with. I asked multiple TC members about this and they had no idea where that announcement came from.

Also, the announcement clearly states that it would apply to 1 season. So according to that announcement, TC would not even need to express their will for it to go back. It would go automatically back unless TC asked for the test to be extended and they would never ask such a thing because the idea of freezing is outrageously stupid to begin with.

 

[Munya]

Then they should have voiced those objections when it was being discussed and the multiple people that were okay with it were talking about it, and they very specifically given time to say no to it when I asked.

[gbwead]

1 minute ago, Munya said:

Then they should have voiced those objections when it was being discussed and the multiple people that were okay with it were talking about it, and they very specifically given time to say no to it when I asked.

Fine. Let's assume they were silent. The announcement still says freezing would only last 1 season. You can't suddenly use that same announcement as a reference point to make this change permanent because if people or TC wanted to object to this becoming permanent, they would not be able to because they were never asked to give their input. They were asked to give their input about testing freezing for 1 season, they were not asked about making freezing a permanent thing.

Also, if the point of testing freezing for the first two months is to check how a season will go, you need to actually go through with the season. By trying to cancel now season changes, you are destroying any basis on which your test was being founded.

[Munya]

It would actually be to maintain the integrity of the next season with two "major?" pokemon in the tiers being banned it doesn't really sound right to ban based off that usage.  That said its not guaranteed to happen, it is a question atm, one that I will poll the TC on later but I figured you all could give your input as well.

[gbwead]

16 minutes ago, Munya said:

It would actually be to maintain the integrity of the next season with two "major?" pokemon in the tiers being banned it doesn't really sound right to ban based off that usage.  That said its not guaranteed to happen, it is a question atm, one that I will poll the TC on later but I figured you all could give your input as well.

I just think the projects need to be more clear. When people have to do bug reports, they have to use the following format:

Quote

How it is now:


How it should be:

Would it be possible to present everything with a format like that? I'm one of the players that follows the forum the most and I am genuinely confused with what is actually being suggested here. I can't imagine anyone understanding that they have to give their input in the recently reopened April thread about a matter that will affect July movements, but with some reference to what happened in the May thread. It's imo a mess.

Edited June 20, 2023 by gbwead

[Ramallero]

2 hours ago, gbwead said:

I just think the projects need to be more clear. When people have to do bug reports, they have to use the following format:

Would it be possible to present everything with a format like that? I'm one of the players that follows the forum the most and I am genuinely confused with what is actually being suggested here. I can't imagine anyone understanding that they have to give their input in the recently reopened April thread about a matter that will affect July movements, but with some reference to what happened in the May thread. It's imo a mess.

THIS!

 

After reading for 10min I have no clue of what is the main objective of this thread

[caioxlive13]

People saying that we need to bring back the normal cutoffs, there is no normal anymore. Since July of previous year, when HAs get introduced, we had 4 seasons and we don't managed to have a single season with normal cutoffs. On first, we had 4,36% on all months. On 2nd, also 4,36 but on October to November all movements was voted. 3rd Season, 4,36% again. 4th season, Tiers frozen. The normal is gone. Now this will keep every season from now on? We will still experience the chaos if we don't cut the problem on the roots. We need to think on a way to organize tiering. Usage, VR, it doesn't matter how, this need to be fixed and need to be a priority on things to do.

[DoubleJ]

"There's too much yo-yo'ing! The tiers aren't stable!"

 

TC freezes movements to find a solution and optimize the system...

 

"This is bullshit and stupid! You need to do something! Bring back the old cutoffs!"

 

=/

[gbwead]

57 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

"There's too much yo-yo'ing! The tiers aren't stable!"

 

TC freezes movements to find a solution and optimize the system...

I posted countless solutions for yoyoing and unstability. Freezing anything is never a solution, it's a cop out that creates more issues down the line. 

 

If I go to the doctor because I have foot pain, I don't want the doctor to chop off my foot and say: "but you said you were in pain!, i just removed the pain source". It's absurd just like freezing is absurd.

[RysPicz]

ok, this doctor-foot comparison was really good, you gotta admit that

Edited June 21, 2023 by RysPicz

[DoubleJ]

2 hours ago, gbwead said:

I posted countless solutions for yoyoing and unstability. Freezing anything is never a solution, it's a cop out that creates more issues down the line. 

 

If I go to the doctor because I have foot pain, I don't want the doctor to chop off my foot and say: "but you said you were in pain!, i just removed the pain source". It's absurd just like freezing is absurd.

1 hour ago, RysPicz said:

ok, this doctor-foot comparison was really good, you gotta admit that

Worst analogy ever. Cutting off the foot is the equivalent of stopping tiering altogether and just having ubers.

 

Freezing tiering is more along the lines of this:

 

"Wow, you have serious pain and I see it's really bothering you. I don't have answer right now but let me schedule you a follow up visit as I review your chart, understand your problem more deeply, and think about a plan that works for both of us."

 

Was your pain addressed? No. Will it be? Yes. 

 

#fakedoctorseverywhere#gbpbc

Edited June 21, 2023 by DoubleJ

[gbwead]

10 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

"Wow, you have serious pain and I see it's really bothering you. I don't have answer right now but let me schedule you a follow up visit as I review your chart, understand your problem more deeply, and think about a plan that works for both of us."

This is a problem we had for the past 5+ years. We don't need more time to figure out a plan to work this out. How can you not have a plan yet? This is not new, you should have a plan already. 

 

Enough with the delays and excuses. We all know freezing the tiers is not a solution, it's a cop out. When people ask you to do something, they actually want you to do something. We don't need you to take your time to figure out a plan, our time has been wasted enough already.

[Godhelll]

There are pokemons that must go up and others to go down.

 

So in fact, why avoiding another month of changes?

[DoubleJ]

1 hour ago, gbwead said:

This is a problem we had for the past 5+ years. We don't need more time to figure out a plan to work this out. How can you not have a plan yet? This is not new, you should have a plan already. 

 

Enough with the delays and excuses. We all know freezing the tiers is not a solution, it's a cop out. When people ask you to do something, they actually want you to do something. We don't need you to take your time to figure out a plan, our time has been wasted enough already.

I understand you're frustrated, that's reasonable. When we have a problem that is five years in the making, it often takes that much time or even longer to sort it out. We'll get through this together. I ask for your patience, just as I will work to have patience with you.

[gbwead]

21 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

I understand you're frustrated, that's reasonable. When we have a problem that is five years in the making, it often takes that much time or even longer to sort it out. We'll get through this together. I ask for your patience, just as I will work to have patience with you.

Asking to freeze tiers is not asking for patience, it's asking to destroy our terrible tiering system without replacing it with anything. 

If people complain that the water taste bad, you can't just take away their bad water with no replacement while asking them to be patient. They will all die. I rather drink bad water than getting no water at all. I rather have a shitty tiering system than having nothing.

 

Seriously, it doesn't take an eternity to figure out a way to fix our tiering system. Everything has already been figured out, just pick a solution out of the hundreds that have been suggested by the community. 

Edited June 21, 2023 by gbwead

[DoubleJ]

27 minutes ago, gbwead said:

Asking to freeze tiers is not asking for patience, it's asking to destroy our terrible tiering system without replacing it with anything. 

If people complain that the water taste bad, you can't just take away their bad water with no replacement while asking them to be patient. They will all die. I rather drink bad water than getting no water at all. I rather have a shitty tiering system than having nothing.

 

Seriously, it doesn't take an eternity to figure out a way to fix our tiering system. Everything has already been figured out, just pick a solution out of the hundreds that have been suggested by the community. 

Gosh, your analogy game is just the worst. You know better than most there aren't any quick fixes when it comes to this game. We're looking at system level changes. So sit back, play the game (or not) and be patient.

[Makarovs]

Aside from those weird Gbwead analogies, he does have a point. As bad as the current system is, it does allow for some changes (some are fair, some not so much). I don't know what action you will take in the future to change the system, but don't prevent current changes. It doesn't seem fair to me to have a cases like Toxicroak having 2.87% of usage in OU, and having to spend another 3 months caged due to a bad decision.

[gbwead]

3 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

Gosh, your analogy game is just the worst. You know better than most there aren't any quick fixes when it comes to this game. We're looking at system level changes. So sit back, play the game (or not) and be patient.

In the meantime, can you at the very least figure out a way to present your ideas in a clear manner? There is still no clear picture of what is going on.

• The tier lists and BL lists that were outdated for years have been deleted since May without any explanation.
• The 1st and 2nd months freeze announcement is now extended without notice or reasoning.
• The seasonal freeze announcement was a 2 sentences post made in a usage movement thread that was closed 3 months ago.
• The tiering policy is getting modified without officially letting us know and yet remains outdated in regards to the freeze announcements that have been made recently.

You want to make excuses for delays. Fine. Whatever I can't do anything about that. However, could you at the very least tell us what's up? What is actually going? What is the freeze suggestions/announcements about? What is the reasoning behind these suggestions? It would really help if we could have a clear picture of what is being suggested. 
 

[DoubleJ]

1 minute ago, Makarovs said:

Aside from those weird Gbwead analogies, he does have a point. As bad as the current system is, it does allow for some changes (some are fair, some not so much). I don't know what action you will take in the future to change the system, but don't prevent current changes. It doesn't seem fair to me to have a cases like Toxicroak having 2.87% of usage in OU, and having to spend another 3 months caged due to a bad decision.

There are things that this community is asking for, and to accommodate that, we need to wait. Here are the requests:

1. Prevent yo-yo'ing every month or three months

2. Optimize usage statistics

 

It's not as simple as saying "ok great, I'm going to magically wave my finger in the air and change our cut-offs and how we obtain usage."

[gbwead]

7 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

There are things that this community is asking for, and to accommodate that, we need to wait. Here are the requests:

1. Prevent yo-yo'ing every month or three months

2. Optimize usage statistics

 

It's not as simple as saying "ok great, I'm going to magically wave my finger in the air and change our cut-offs and how we obtain usage."

The way we obtain usage does indeed require some time and that's fine. However, you can actually wave your finger in the air and change the cut-off points. It doesn't require any programming. It just requires you to change it from an arbitrary number (4.36% right now) to another arbitrary number. You can prevent yo-yo'ing whenever you want, you are just choosing not to.

You also forgot to mention volatility as a problem with our usage system which is not the same thing as yoyoing.

Edited June 21, 2023 by gbwead

[DoubleJ]

2 minutes ago, gbwead said:

The way we obtain usage does indeed require some time and that's fine. However, you can actually wave your finger in the air and change the cut-off points. It doesn't require any programming. It just requires you to change it from an arbitrary number (4.36% right now) to another arbitrary number. You can prevent yo-yo'ing whenever you want, you are just choosing not to.

You also forgot to mention volatility as a problem with our usage system which is not the same thing as yoyoing.

Changing the cut-offs in an arbitrary manner doesn't seem like the best path forward tbh.

[drewq]

In NU at the moment there are several players at or near 1,000 battles played on ladder. 

 

21,000 battles thus far this month means these players and the teams they use can singlehandedly account for just shy of 5% of usage stats. 

 

Could this be a symptom of the problems we have in regards to usage-based movements?

 

Edit:

Worth mentioning the 5% figure for UU applies to players with ~500 games played. Literally one player using a niche mon could keep it in the tier when realistically it should drop.

Edited June 21, 2023 by drewq

[DoubleJ]

2 minutes ago, drewq said:

In NU at the moment there are several players at or near 1,000 battles played on ladder. 

 

21,000 battles thus far this month means these players and the teams they use can singlehandedly account for just shy of 5% of usage stats. 

 

Could this be a symptom of the problems we have in regards to usage-based movements?

What is your concern, that the top players (or those with most games played) have too much influence or too little influence on stats?

[drewq]

1 minute ago, DoubleJ said:

What is your concern, that the top players (or those with most games played) have too much influence or too little influence on stats?

Just theorizing that usage stats being so easily skewed in lower tiers is likely part of the issue with the constant yo-yo'ing. 

[DoubleJ]

2 minutes ago, drewq said:

Just theorizing that usage stats being so easily skewed in lower tiers is likely part of the issue with the constant yo-yo'ing. 

That doesn't answer my question though.