Munya Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 Last month in the season and hopefully we can finally get back on a seasonal schedule after this with normal movements. 4.36% to go either way. For this month things above / below cutoffs are: To OU from UU: Toxicroak - 6.01% usage in OU Seismitoad - 5.76% usage in OU To UU from OU: Ditto - 4.23% usage in OU Jolteon - 3.69% Usage in OU Milotic - 3.75% Usage in OU Salamence - 4.08% Usage in OU Additionally a vote has been requested for the Porygon2 test so we should see a conclusion that that this month whichever way the vote ends up. To NU from UU: Cloyster - 3.58% Usage in UU Gastrodon - 3.90% Usage in UU Nidoqueen - 3.70% Usage in UU Tentacruel - 3.63% Usage in UU Vaporeon - 2.89% Usage in UU Zoroark - 4.02% Usage in UU DiosSlurpuff, GautSam, razimove and 1 other 1 1 2 Link to comment
Imperial Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 (edited) What are Tier Council's initial thoughts on the following Pokemon coming down to NU? Cloyster - 3.58% Usage in UU Nidoqueen - 3.70% Usage in UU I'm concerned about Nidoqueen's offensive set in the tier with its decent bulk. Tentacruel, Gastrodon and Vaporeon dropping down will make some interesting team cores and possibly favour a more defensive meta, Sceptile's usage will likely be high as it heavily pressures all of these alongside AV Eelektross being great. I also remember Salamence was being suspect tested in UU at the time but it was automatically placed in OU because it had Moxie. Can TC confirm their stance on this and if the suspect test ended or if a vote will take place? (Mamoswine is no longer in the tier) Edited March 26 by Imperial Link to comment
Quinn010 Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 when you guys test haxarous i think its fine in the current uu meta razimove, barfeelaadmi, RysPicz and 3 others 6 Link to comment
Bertolfoso Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 Do people not see a problem with the movements shifts? The tiers are so unstable, every month there is a completely different UU / NU. Am I the only one that thinks that this is not good/normal? gbwead, razimove, DiosSlurpuff and 17 others 19 1 Link to comment
Justa102 Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 can crawdaunt go ou if toxicroak is going ou? Lumiere 1 Link to comment
Munya Posted March 26 Author Share Posted March 26 2 minutes ago, Bertolfoso said: Do people not see a problem with the movements shifts? The tiers are so unstable, every month there is a completely different UU / NU. Am I the only one that thinks that this is not good/normal? Its because we haven't been on a stable seasonal schedule in some time, every time we try and get back on one something new is added to the game to disrupt it. razimove, Quinn010, RysPicz and 2 others 4 1 Link to comment
Imperial Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Justa102 said: can crawdaunt go ou if toxicroak is going ou? Crawdaunt is centralising but we still have Shaymin, Poliwrath and potentially Salamence(?) - my concerns about the latter below: @Munya - Please could you request that Tier Council take a look into Salamence? The initial suspect test never came to a conclusion because it automatically went to OU once it gained its Hidden Ability but now it will drop down based on usage. There's the argument that there are decent checks for it, but it still pressures offensive teams massively with its speed (speed ties with Shaymin and both can self-recover admittedly although Salamence has a far superior typing), versatile sets (DD + mixed) and Moxie, and with Porygon2 potentially being banned and Mamoswine no longer being in the tier when the initial discussion was made, I believe there should be a new suspect test at the minimum or a quickban if many people already feel the same about this. P.S. Please don't say that Jolteon is the answer to keeping this at bay. Edited March 26 by Imperial Link to comment
Munya Posted March 26 Author Share Posted March 26 We are aware of the potential salamence issue yes and it has been mentioned in the tier council discord, most people are asleep right now I would assume though. Imperial 1 Link to comment
Imperial Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 1 minute ago, Munya said: We are aware of the potential salamence issue yes and it has been mentioned in the tier council discord, most people are asleep right now I would assume though. Thank you, it would be great if Tier Council can also consider Nidoqueen's offensive set in the tier. I had initial concerns about Cloyster but I feel this will probably be fine. Link to comment
pachima Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 Yes. Drop Cloyster-Vaporeon-Gastrodon-Tentacruel at the same month Toxicroak goes to OU. Because it is inconceivable they will just be used again in UU after that, thus leaving NU in a completely unnecessary chaos for a few months for absolutely no reason other than spending a few minutes discussing the actual Pokemon you are dropping. Also, why isnt Salamence Gatekeept from UU for the time being. UU is in absolute chaos. Instead of just dropping another huge bomb to the tier, why don't you actually realize what is wrong with it in the first place before proceeding with unnecessary big changes? Having updates is a terrible excuse for why tiers are how they are right now. Updates are irrelevant, when you have the power to gatekeep whatever you want. Finally, why the hell are we still using usage system in lower tiers? Even worse, Why are we still using 4,36 marks for those tiers? You have literally dropped 4 Pokemon to NU last month, reshaping the tier that is yet to adapt to it, but we are now looking to drop 6 more, because why not? Because a few months ago NU had stable 13k matches monthly, but apparently that was too good so we better ruin it as well to the point of dropping it to below 10k. Doesn't it strike you as a huge flaw in UU, when for the first time ever UU just dropped 10 different Pokemon to NU in just 2 months? No, of course not. Let's just keep dropping stuff as well as dropping other stuff to UU every month and blame it to the devs that are just adding new stuff to the game, instead of actually taking action and actually make tiers enjoybale for as long as possible. But this isn't a game at all apparently. What matters is we have fun in 2035 when tiers are stabilized. Jesus hell. Enough is enough. This is the absolute worst lower tiers have ever been ever since ladder update, and yet we have not a single word of what is being done to attempt to fix it. Instead, just drop new stuff and blindly follow the usages, because that is the easiest approach for everything in this game. epicdavenport, Imperial, razimove and 13 others 6 9 1 Link to comment
Imperial Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 2 minutes ago, pachima said: Yes. Drop Cloyster-Vaporeon-Gastrodon-Tentacruel at the same month Toxicroak goes to OU. Because it is inconceivable they will just be used again in UU after that, thus leaving NU in a completely unnecessary chaos for a few months for absolutely no reason other than spending a few minutes discussing the actual Pokemon you are dropping. Also, why isnt Salamence Gatekeept from UU for the time being. UU is in absolute chaos. Instead of just dropping another huge bomb to the tier, why don't you actually realize what is wrong with it in the first place before proceeding with unnecessary big changes? Having updates is a terrible excuse for why tiers are how they are right now. Updates are irrelevant, when you have the power to gatekeep whatever you want. Finally, why the hell are we still using usage system in lower tiers? Even worse, Why are we still using 4,36 marks for those tiers? You have literally dropped 4 Pokemon to NU last month, reshaping the tier that is yet to adapt to it, but we are now looking to drop 6 more, because why not? Because a few months ago NU had stable 13k matches monthly, but apparently that was too good so we better ruin it as well to the point of dropping it to below 10k. Doesn't it strike you as a huge flaw in UU, when for the first time ever UU just dropped 10 different Pokemon to NU in just 2 months? No, of course not. Let's just keep dropping stuff as well as dropping other stuff to UU every month and blame it to the devs that are just adding new stuff to the game, instead of actually taking action and actually make tiers enjoybale for as long as possible. But this isn't a game at all apparently. What matters is we have fun in 2035 when tiers are stabilized. Jesus hell. Enough is enough. This is the absolute worst lower tiers have ever been ever since ladder update, and yet we have not a single word of what is being done to attempt to fix it. Instead, just drop new stuff and blindly follow the usages, because that is the easiest approach for everything in this game. I agree with what you've said, the usage system is completely flawed for the lower tiers and I'll repeat myself and state that I really hope they implement either a slightly increased usage % or include tournament usage as well (a much better indicator). I've spotted that pattern of things yo-yo-ing between NU and UU and that's annoyed me personally, good examples include Slowbro, Druddigon, Tentacruel and Gligar. Hopefully the above solution can be considered sooner rather than later. Honestly going forwards I can see UU and NU becoming heavily stall favoured with the number of defensive mons being into the tier, I really hope I'm proved wrong because OU has already become so boring and it's only going to potentially get worse with some of the new HAs and gen 9 movesets coming out. epicdavenport, Missit, pachima and 1 other 4 Link to comment
Sebat Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 So many changes just confirm that % cutoff should increases. Toxicroak - 6.01% usage in OU Seismitoad - 5.76% usage in OU Like Ludicolo, Wobbuffet and others, prebuilt teams is always a thing and these are the rain of this season. Ditto - 4.23% usage in OU Jolteon - 3.69% Usage in OU Milotic - 3.75% Usage in OU Salamence - 4.08% Usage in OU Jolteon and Milotic in their tier, Salamence is an uber offensive already discussed with P2 probably banned this month. Cloyster - 3.58% Usage in UU Gastrodon - 3.90% Usage in UU Nidoqueen - 3.70% Usage in UU Tentacruel - 3.63% Usage in UU Vaporeon - 2.89% Usage in UU Zoroark - 4.02% Usage in UU Gastrodon and Tentacruel are options to the tier, not brokens but Cloyster without Poliwrath looks very strong, mostly ChoiceBand/Scarf option like Azumarill, Zoroark is fast and with access to NastyPlot was always a threat imo, idk at all about it, and Vaporeon probably the most uber defensive to the tier and will increase the stall teams 200% for me it shouldn't be nu. I would prefer only do sane changes and not test since we will have Johto in 2-3 months and there will be important changes with everything they implement. Link to comment
caioxlive13 Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 (edited) Okay, comment about the changes. I will not even ask to NU <-> UT list because 100% will not be given. To OU from UU: Toxicroak - 6.01% usage in OU Seismitoad - 5.76% usage in OU - Rain's popularity rose so both become OU was only question of time anyway. UU will take a big hit now because Crawdaunt check would be only Poliwrath right now. To UU from OU: Ditto - 4.23% usage in OU Jolteon - 3.69% Usage in OU Milotic - 3.75% Usage in OU Salamence - 4.08% Usage in OU Additionally a vote has been requested for the Porygon2 test so we should see a conclusion that that this month whichever way the vote ends up. - Ditto only gets on OU due to New Toy Syndrome. It will go to untiered back in a few months. - After years finally, Jolteon fall. Maybe it can be useful or only a trash mon on UU. - Milotic will be a A+/S for sure. Not a uber because we still have some mons that chip it enough(Rotom-H with Volt Switch and Shaymin with Seed Flare). Maybe useful vs Crawdaunt? Idk. - There is a reason to Mence got moved to OU when gained HA on first place. Will be banned 100%. To NU from UU: Cloyster - 3.58% Usage in UU Gastrodon - 3.90% Usage in UU Nidoqueen - 3.70% Usage in UU Tentacruel - 3.63% Usage in UU Vaporeon - 2.89% Usage in UU Zoroark - 4.02% Usage in UU Comment later. Also: 4 hours ago, Imperial said: I agree with what you've said, the usage system is completely flawed for the lower tiers and I'll repeat myself and state that I really hope they implement either a slightly increased usage % or include tournament usage as well (a much better indicator). I've spotted that pattern of things yo-yo-ing between NU and UU and that's annoyed me personally, good examples include Slowbro, Druddigon, Tentacruel and Gligar. Hopefully the above solution can be considered sooner rather than later. Honestly going forwards I can see UU and NU becoming heavily stall favoured with the number of defensive mons being into the tier, I really hope I'm proved wrong because OU has already become so boring and it's only going to potentially get worse with some of the new HAs and gen 9 movesets coming out. Try to adjust usage cutoff is pointless because we will still have low ladder scrambling usage. Why not pick only Tournament Usage from Round of 16/Quarterfinals onwards and base usage on those months with high movement rate? Edited March 26 by caioxlive13 Link to comment
xMago Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 6 hours ago, Justa102 said: can crawdaunt go ou if toxicroak is going ou? salamence best counter of crawd, better than toxicroak AngeloDLZ2 1 Link to comment
TohnR Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 (edited) When Salamence got Moxie I can recally a few members of TC saying that it should go to OU because it was too much for the tier anyway. Altho I understand the current argument about recent UU changes that would nerf the most popular Salamence. I would also like to note that Mammoswine is gone from UU right now which makes revenge killing Salamence much more difficult than it used to. Ditto, Jolteon & Milotic should be allowed in UU, they don't belong in OU anymore and are probably fine in UU too. I can't comment about NU due to my lack of interest and knowledge but surely Vaporeon could become an issue. More so the fact that it can freely switch in and wish against a large portion of the metagame. Those who don't see it as a thread, good for them, enjoy your new broken cleric. Nidoqueen with 76 base speed is imo the same profile as stuff like Modest Clef Life Orb. It has great coverage, quite hard to switch around it, but also very hard to bring it safely to the field. It also doesn't have access to any form of setup. The main difference being that Nidoqueen's typing is actually useful for the team, unlike Clef's. Edited March 27 by TohnR Edited after reading the whole discussion in this thread Link to comment
gbwead Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 Reminder to TC that, according to the tiering policy, a thread needs to be opened for each pokemon they wish to quick ban. 5 days left before April... epicdavenport, pachima and Matthzinxl 3 Link to comment
RysPicz Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 jesus what kind of clusterfuck is this supposed to be? Zymogen and epicdavenport 2 Link to comment
caioxlive13 Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 (edited) 17 minutes ago, TohnR said: Salamence was quickbanned to OU when it got Moxie, I don't see a reason to unban it this month Salamence and Amoongus was moved to OU on December, not banned. If usage of they allows any of two or both to fall, they could fall until TC vote to ban it. Edited March 26 by caioxlive13 Link to comment
drewq Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 8 hours ago, Munya said: To NU from UU: Cloyster - 3.58% Usage in UU Gastrodon - 3.90% Usage in UU Nidoqueen - 3.70% Usage in UU Tentacruel - 3.63% Usage in UU Vaporeon - 2.89% Usage in UU Zoroark - 4.02% Usage in UU We need to rework this system because this is unacceptable. You cannot drop 6 potentially meta defining mons into the tier at the same time. Queza, Missit, RysPicz and 4 others 5 2 Link to comment
gbwead Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 @Munya Where can I find the updated UUBL and NUBL lists? Link to comment
Imperial Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 (edited) I thought I'd make one final comment here alongside on Discord, I would propose the following solutions: Increase the usage % to around 4.8-5% - even increasing it slightly will see a massive difference in the number of mons yo-yo-ing from UU and NU Consider tournament usage from quarterfinals onwards UU Salamence - quickban (offensive uber) Porygon2 - ban (offensive/defensive uber) Milotic - nothing but this thing will be a huge pain in the ass Jolteon - pressures offensive teams a lot but let's give this a chance NU Nidoqueen - quickban (offensive uber) Cloyster - suspect test Zoroark - this will be strong but I think we have the tools to cope with it and we had it in NU before (I think without Gigalith in the tier) - this is fine I think a thread should be created for Cloyster and a vote placed on Nidoqueen and Salamence as soon as possible. Edit - I believe that Sharpedo should be banned or at the minimum a thread be created. I think there is enough evidence that every set poses a huge threat to a large number of mons in the tier. I was wrong about Scrafty, this is fine. Shoutout to @PoseidonWrath for being the most transparent TC member, I'm sure you all do a great job but it would be nice to have more members be transparent about their discussions with us so we can help deliver our input if needed. Edited March 26 by Imperial hannahtaylor, PoseidonWrath, TohnR and 7 others 6 1 2 1 Link to comment
Munya Posted March 26 Author Share Posted March 26 BL1 Darmanitan Dugtrio Haxorus Lucario Porygon-Z Staraptor BL2 Durant Feraligatr Machamp Rhyperior Roserade Venomoth gbwead 1 Link to comment
Queza Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 Y'all really went yeeeeeeet, there's way to many mons dropping or moving up that will affect meta severely epicdavenport 1 Link to comment
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