[OU Discussion] Hydreigon

[caioxlive13]

1 hour ago, kiwi said:

please if you dont know what you are talking about dont quote me and by the way this is how meta works

So you're saying that is fine that a mon otherwise useless/extremelly niche is used on a tier to counter/check a single mon? So, by that logic, Zacian-C and Zacian-H are both fine in Gen 8 Ubers because "Quagsire can handle it", right? Or, in MMO, Crawdaunt is fine on UU because "Poliwrath(An mon that before Feraligatr and Crawdaunt was roaming on NU and Untiered) can handle it", right? 

No, it's not right. Like i sayed, it's fine when a mon rise by it's own merits, like Gallade, that became OU not because something in OU was broken and he is the only decent answer. He raised because it became a good mon on it's own due to sharpness. That's fine. What is not fine is when you has to use an mon not good on it's own in a tier, just because X/Y is too strong and nothing else can beat it. Would you like to be forced to run for example in OU, an Weezing in a team when Amoongus is clearly better, just to be able to stop simultaneously Conkeldurr and Serperior? 

Edited December 20, 2023 by caioxlive13

[Lumiere]

5 minutes ago, caioxlive13 said:

So you're saying that is fine that a mon otherwise useless/extremelly niche is used on a tier to counter/check a single mon? So, by that logic, Zacian-C and Zacian-H are both fine in Gen 8 Ubers because "Quagsire can handle it", right? Or, in MMO, Crawdaunt is fine on UU because "Poliwrath(An mon that before Feraligatr and Crawdaunt was roaming on NU and Untiered) can handle it", right? 

No, it's not right. Like i sayed, it's fine when a mon rise by it's own merits, like Gallade, that became OU not because something in OU was broken and he is the only decent answer. He raised because it became a good mon on it's own due to sharpness. That's fine. What is not fine is when you has to use an mon not good on it's own in a tier, just because X/Y is too strong and nothing else can beat it. Would you like to be forced to run for example in OU, an Weezing in a team when Amoongus is clearly better, just to be able to stop simultaneously Conkeldurr and Serperior? 

This is not the place for that topic.
Empoleon received many boosts that made it a good OU mon, it can deal with ton of threats in OU, not only Hydreigon.
Its raising in usage due to Hydreigon? Yes, but not only for it, so ur argument its just wrong.
Please stop, this is how meta, usage and tiering works.

[caioxlive13]

8 minutes ago, Lumiere said:

Empoleon received many boosts that made it a good OU mon, it can deal with ton of threats in OU, not only Hydreigon.
Its raising in usage due to Hydreigon? Yes, but not only for it, so ur argument its just wrong.
Please stop, this is how meta, usage and tiering works.

Well, if that's true and Empoleon can deal with many OU mons, answer me: Why it are not an OU mon right now? Why it dropped and never returned, and why it are raising just now that hydreigon conveniently are too strong?  Also, where is the said boosts it got? Because what he has now defensively, what we're discussing now, it already has since January. It got just worse because the strike that the PP nerf was for a lot of defensive mons.

Edited December 20, 2023 by caioxlive13

[Lumiere]

22 minutes ago, caioxlive13 said:

Well, if that's true and Empoleon can deal with many OU mons, answer me: Why it are not an OU mon right now? Why it dropped and never returned, and why it are raising just now that hydreigon conveniently are too strong?  

Empoleon has the same 3% usage since it got added Competitive as hidden ability.
That makes it a great Stealth Rock set up mon. 
If u never looked at the tier and can't see that Empoleon makes so much great cores in the current OU meta then u are not playing this at all.
That's the answer and the "true" situation of it.
Stop.

Edited December 20, 2023 by Lumiere

[PrinBruce]

What is being discussed here is how hydreigon is shaping the meta in a way that is be seen if healthy or not, so I think it`s expected for everyone to try making it a corteous conversation

As I have seen argumented in thsi thread, yes, Empoleon`s usage has been around 2 and 3 percent the last few months. However, when one looks into Empoleon`s Tournament usage, it is as high as 4,74 percent, which is around 91 percent more than what it was in September, month before the update. There`s much more to look out of a mon than simply ladder`s usage rate

However, I think going back to discussing Hydreigon is more useful than focusing on Empoleon right now

[Ramallero]

Can we keep talking about Hydreigon? Or just change the title to "How good is Empoleon actually?" 😂

 

Jokes aside, what are the arguments to keep Draco Meteor on Hydreigon? 

[DoubleJ]

On 12/20/2023 at 7:37 AM, Ramallero said:

Jokes aside, what are the arguments to keep Draco Meteor on Hydreigon? 

With any replication, there should be a strong effort to maintain canon as much as possible. It's always worth consideration to test something that has been banned when significant changes have taken place. 

 

Regardless of that gaming tidbit, Draco Meteor expands the number of wallbreakers, and pressures Assault Gear and Regenerator users tremendously which I personally see as an upside.

 

It's access to U-Turn, really sets it apart, giving it the option to nuke a team with Draco or pivot off checks that might otherwise prevent it from doing its job. Set-up (Nasty Plot/Focus Energy) relegates that need to pivot, although consumes a turn that may be catastrophic against offensive teams, or against a lure. Additionally, while Hydreigon has great defensive presence with Dragon/Dark-typing and Levitate, its speed prevents it from being an outright sweeper, which is a blessing. Because of this most stall teams with Wish-passing and recovery can play around most Hydreigon variants so long as they have a mon that can threaten Hydreigon (and any switch) in return like Mach Punch Tech Breloom, Garchomp or Volcarona. 

 

Overall, Hydreigon is an outstanding offensive threat and having Draco Meteor makes it even better. The TC will continue to assess whether it's too good for OU, or if it's a top tier mon that is very threatening but manageable.

 

Also, arguments against Draco Hydrei because of UU movements are not valid. If a UU mon can check a top tier threat in OU, then that's great, and probably says a lot about that threat too. 

[PGS]

Alright, I did not wanted to come here and talk, but this time I'll have to step in.

 

On 12/20/2023 at 9:37 AM, Ramallero said:

Can we keep talking about Hydreigon? Or just change the title to "How good is Empoleon actually?" 😂

 

Jokes aside, what are the arguments to keep Draco Meteor on Hydreigon? 

Reason behind everyone talk about Empoleon is because we need to came into an conclusion about counters/checks of hydrei. Like the recent gens proofed, and reiterated by CaoiX's arguments, there is no Invincible Pokémon, all mons has at least one check. The question that should come to our mind is: Are worthy using X/Y mon to check a threat? AV Tytar and the blobs yes, because they're not bricks in your team and can do more than check hydreigon. Empoleon on the other hand is not the case. He is UU right now, and usually this means that either the mon is bad, or what it does in a tier, other mons does better. In Empoleon's case, what he does others does better. Hazard Setting? Skarmory and Ferrothorn does better. Special Wall? Both blobs does better. Hazard Removal? Rotom-W does better. 

Why they're discussing EXCLUSIVELY Empoleon? Because no other possible check needs introductions. Chansey and Blissey are roaming in OU for a while and Tyranitar AV is a thing since November 2022. They doesn't need explanations. 

Why Empoleon is best answer compared to others? Because he eats all Special Attacks from Hydrei and don't die instantly to a Superpower. Also with roar, he makes hard to Hydrei to setup.

That's the negative point for Hydrei. In order to check it, your best option is Empoleon and by using him you're giving up of something better.
And DoubleJ commented about mons that can threaten Hydreigon. Well, Hydrei has levitate so it can't be trapped, it has Dark type and decent bulk so no pursuit trap for him, and this means you can't prevent it from switching out , and by that it can kill something and when one mon able to RK it enters, he can switch out and come back later to go for other mon. Also by levitate, he can assure the only dmg he will take for entering is rocks, but you can still play around 12% dmg. It's speed is good from tier, and with scarf basically nothing outspeed him.
That is what makes Hydrei unhealthy and kept my opinion on Ban Draco Meteor Hydreigon. 

 

Spoiler

Also, commenting about Crawdaunt's ban, ik it are a bit off-topic and that's why i'm leaving under a spoiler. 

It was same thing as this one. An mon that otherwise is useless and/or outclassed in UU rised to stop it. They did the mistake of allowing it. I understand when CaoiX sayed to TC not repeat this mistake. And honestly I'm 100% ready to give up from LC's custom change on Slam and ban Hydrei Draco Meteor from slam if the TC did this mistake of allowing it again, like I did with Crawdaunt on UU(On slam will not be allowed.)

Now i'm leaving and hoping to not come back to answer any stupid questions.

Edit: I saw other people talking about i'm wrong about Empoleon. Well, then, i want to ask to answer the CaoiX's question earlier. 

On 12/19/2023 at 10:28 PM, caioxlive13 said:

Well, if that's true and Empoleon can deal with many OU mons, answer me: Why it are not an OU mon right now? Why it dropped and never returned, and why it are raising just now that hydreigon conveniently are too strong? 

Because if Empo is theorically good on OU, it should be OU rn, but he isn't yet. 3,22% on OU this month. Also, except with the haze addition via TM, empoleon didn't gain any new move that he uses right now, since the Lunar New Year. Also if he didn't had haze before, he has Roar which does pretty much same with the bonus of forcing a switch right away. "But roar is -6 priority and is not worthy because it will always attack last" isn't like empoleon would be attacking first anyway. He is slow and don't invest nothing in speed because it prefers to have more bulk.

Edited December 26, 2023 by PGS

[Imperial]

3 hours ago, PGS said:

Alright, I did not wanted to come here and talk, but this time I'll have to step in.

 

Reason behind everyone talk about Empoleon is because we need to came into an conclusion about counters/checks of hydrei. Like the recent gens proofed, and reiterated by CaoiX's arguments, there is no Invincible Pokémon, all mons has at least one check. The question that should come to our mind is: Are worthy using X/Y mon to check a threat? AV Tytar and the blobs yes, because they're not bricks in your team and can do more than check hydreigon. Empoleon on the other hand is not the case. He is UU right now, and usually this means that either the mon is bad, or what it does in a tier, other mons does better. In Empoleon's case, what he does others does better. Hazard Setting? Skarmory and Ferrothorn does better. Special Wall? Both blobs does better. Hazard Removal? Rotom-W does better. 

Why they're discussing EXCLUSIVELY Empoleon? Because no other possible check needs introductions. Chansey and Blissey are roaming in OU for a while and Tyranitar AV is a thing since November 2022. They doesn't need explanations. 

Why Empoleon is best answer compared to others? Because he eats all Special Attacks from Hydrei and don't die instantly to a Superpower. Also with roar, he makes hard to Hydrei to setup.

That's the negative point for Hydrei. In order to check it, your best option is Empoleon and by using him you're giving up of something better.
And DoubleJ commented about mons that can threaten Hydreigon. Well, Hydrei has levitate so it can't be trapped, it has Dark type and decent bulk so no pursuit trap for him, and this means you can't prevent it from switching out , and by that it can kill something and when one mon able to RK it enters, he can switch out and come back later to go for other mon. Also by levitate, he can assure the only dmg he will take for entering is rocks, but you can still play around 12% dmg. It's speed is good from tier, and with scarf basically nothing outspeed him.
That is what makes Hydrei unhealthy and kept my opinion on Ban Draco Meteor Hydreigon. 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Also, commenting about Crawdaunt's ban, ik it are a bit off-topic and that's why i'm leaving under a spoiler. 

It was same thing as this one. An mon that otherwise is useless and/or outclassed in UU rised to stop it. They did the mistake of allowing it. I understand when CaoiX sayed to TC not repeat this mistake. And honestly I'm 100% ready to give up from LC's custom change on Slam and ban Hydrei Draco Meteor from slam if the TC did this mistake of allowing it again, like I did with Crawdaunt on UU(On slam will not be allowed.)

Now i'm leaving and hoping to not come back to answer any stupid questions.

I agree with everything Caioxlive said

[kiwi]

5 hours ago, PGS said:

Alright, I did not wanted to come here and talk, but this time I'll have to step in.

 

Reason behind everyone talk about Empoleon is because we need to came into an conclusion about counters/checks of hydrei. Like the recent gens proofed, and reiterated by CaoiX's arguments, there is no Invincible Pokémon, all mons has at least one check. The question that should come to our mind is: Are worthy using X/Y mon to check a threat? AV Tytar and the blobs yes, because they're not bricks in your team and can do more than check hydreigon. Empoleon on the other hand is not the case. He is UU right now, and usually this means that either the mon is bad, or what it does in a tier, other mons does better. In Empoleon's case, what he does others does better. Hazard Setting? Skarmory and Ferrothorn does better. Special Wall? Both blobs does better. Hazard Removal? Rotom-W does better. 

Why they're discussing EXCLUSIVELY Empoleon? Because no other possible check needs introductions. Chansey and Blissey are roaming in OU for a while and Tyranitar AV is a thing since November 2022. They doesn't need explanations. 

Why Empoleon is best answer compared to others? Because he eats all Special Attacks from Hydrei and don't die instantly to a Superpower. Also with roar, he makes hard to Hydrei to setup.

That's the negative point for Hydrei. In order to check it, your best option is Empoleon and by using him you're giving up of something better.
And DoubleJ commented about mons that can threaten Hydreigon. Well, Hydrei has levitate so it can't be trapped, it has Dark type and decent bulk so no pursuit trap for him, and this means you can't prevent it from switching out , and by that it can kill something and when one mon able to RK it enters, he can switch out and come back later to go for other mon. Also by levitate, he can assure the only dmg he will take for entering is rocks, but you can still play around 12% dmg. It's speed is good from tier, and with scarf basically nothing outspeed him.
That is what makes Hydrei unhealthy and kept my opinion on Ban Draco Meteor Hydreigon. 

 

  Hide contents

Also, commenting about Crawdaunt's ban, ik it are a bit off-topic and that's why i'm leaving under a spoiler. 

It was same thing as this one. An mon that otherwise is useless and/or outclassed in UU rised to stop it. They did the mistake of allowing it. I understand when CaoiX sayed to TC not repeat this mistake. And honestly I'm 100% ready to give up from LC's custom change on Slam and ban Hydrei Draco Meteor from slam if the TC did this mistake of allowing it again, like I did with Crawdaunt on UU(On slam will not be allowed.)

Now i'm leaving and hoping to not come back to answer any stupid questions.

empoleon checks dnite, volc, suicune, ttar, kingdra, kabutops, weezing, skarmory, chandelure, weavile, starmie not only hydre as u claim, in top of that it gets great utility moves like rocks, defog or knock off

pretty sad that u had to comment in a second account hoping people would take u serious but when u are this clueless there is no way anyone could agree with you

[Huargensy]

Just use sylveon

[SuperBXdanielo]

I think it's fair to maintain hydreigon draco meteor as a good counter to stall, since this style is very dominant in the meta and make it very unbalanced, forcing people to go hyper offense to combat it. The devs probably think the same about stall, as they gave back gallade 1,5 sharpness too.

 

The best way to counter him is simple using your speed control, which is a obvious thing since he is a wallbreaker. Mach punch kill hydreigon very easily, but you can use ice type such as Weaville against the non scarf sets or a dragon type move when it doesn't have haban berry. If you are against the scarf set, you just need to wall it, so later you can switch to a sweeper to take the opportunity or just heal yourself in front of the -2 draco meteor. 

 

But if you really want to nerf hydreigon, instead ban focus Blast, so tyranitar and empoleon can wall it whitout worrying about a super effective move.

 

It's the first time I made a entirely english text, so sorry for any mistakes.

[Doctor]

 

Whoever says stall is dominant in the meta either plays HO or just doesn't like the archetype, but please stop using personal biased opinions as an argument to keep a mon that destroys not just stall but everything else in its way in the game

 

And I hate using the stats tab because it shows a skewed version of the meta by compiling all elos usage, but come on, let's stop being toddlers about stall. It's just another archetype, and we're all acting as if Taunt wasn't in the game. You just gotta accept that there are more playstyles than just clicking the big number button until your opponent dies.

Edited December 28, 2023 by Doctor

[YourAngst]

32 minutes ago, Doctor said:

Whoever says stall is dominant in the meta either plays HO or just doesn't like the archetype, but please stop using personal biased opinions as an argument to keep a mon that destroys not just stall but everything else in its way in the game

 

And I hate using the stats tab because it shows a skewed version of the meta by compiling all elos usage, but come on, let's stop being toddlers about stall. It's just another archetype, and we're all acting as if Taunt wasn't in the game. You just gotta accept that there are more playstyles than just clicking the big number button until your opponent dies.

Quote

 

Sorry but no , first this post has  nothing to do with the hydra dm movment and fits better in the OU Discussion thread and second yes stall is the dominant playstyle , I don t say this because I play HO or dislike the playstyle ( my favorite styles are bulky offense and balance and i play those the most ) I say its the dominant playstyle because i simply play the game that and combined with spectating and analyzing both the tournaments and the upper echelons of the ladder .

 

Also out of all the stats and information you could have pointed out the winrate dosen t help at all first winrate is subjective and dosen t fully represent the whole picture , especially the winrate showed on the very first summy page , it dosen t take into accaount all the possible teammates,items,moves,natures and ev spreads a certain mon had and how did those helped that mon to achieve that winrate ( if you were to throw scizor into any team with any moveset , any item ...ect  you will not win 50.68% of the time I point this out because this is what that winrate implays).

 

Another thing i have to ask is why did you point out so many mons? A stall team dosen t allways consist of 6 tanks (or whatever you want to call them ) that can take a lot of damage and heal it off , stall teams come in many shapes and sizes .

Here are 2 exemples :

This is a modern stall team ( i call them modern because thats how ive always called them , not because they appeared last week or this year or the last one , as far as i know they go back all the way to gen 5 and 6 , i can be wrong about theyr exact date) and as you can see its a team build around volcarona meant to support volcarona( I see now that it needs to be a Dugtrio over that skarmory to remove ttar but im not goona take another ss now )and take out all the mons that could stop volc from sweeping yet dosen t make it any less then a stall team and for reference those modern stall teams were invented by stall players to beat the ''normal'' stall teams to which you are referring.

They don t always have a special sweeper that wants to set up they can just as well have a physical one that acts as a wall braker ( my rule of thumb is that the physical mon always needs to be choice band and not set up)

 

The next  team even tho not something very original or hard to think about its intuitive and acts more or less as the first one :

 

And ofcourse dug over skarmory .

 

Also mons such as rotom-wash , mien and even starmie( in some niche cases) can just as well fit into stall teams so i don t get it why did you feel the need to point them out.

 

Another form of stall team wiche I personally don t know that much about is tactical stall that has 2 sweepers insteed of just one and unlike the more traditional stall looks to use those 2 as momentum gainers so most often then not they will be mons that are naturely fast (they don t want to be  choice scarfd) and there is also fat balance or hardcore balance that despite the name its still a stall team and im not going to elaborate more on this 2 teamstyles since this post is long enough as it is.

 

Tldr stall is the dominant playstyle and even a mon like scizor and fit into a stall team not as a sweeper but like an acctual tank/pivot haveing great typeing and access to roost ,defog and knock off

[Doctor]

9 minutes ago, YourAngst said:

I don t say this because I play HO or dislike the playstyle ( my favorite styles are bulky offense and balance and i play those the most ) I say its the dominant playstyle because i simply play the game that and combined with spectating and analyzing both the tournaments and the upper echelons of the ladder .

"it's not my personal opinion but rather my personal opinion"

 

ok I guess can't do much against that argument

[YourAngst]

43 minutes ago, Doctor said:

"it's not my personal opinion but rather my personal opinion"

 

ok I guess can't do much against that argument

I don t understand how you got that from the text you decided to quote since bulky offense BO ≠ hyper offense HO but hey maybe im just too dumb to understand and in that case thank you for pointing out my mistake ,either way im happy that out of that huge wall of text you walked away with something and understood the mistake i pointed out regarding you re post , happy to help

[Doctor]

43 minutes ago, YourAngst said:

I don t understand how you got that from the text you decided to quote since bulky offense BO ≠ hyper offense HO but hey maybe im just too dumb to understand and in that case thank you for pointing out my mistake ,either way im happy that out of that huge wall of text you walked away with something and understood the mistake i pointed out regarding you re post , happy to help

Okay, I didn't think there was a need for anyone to explain this, but I'm gonna give it a go and I'm not gonna base it on "but I feel it's like this!" so you can see what an actual argument looks like.

 

First of all, I also happen to play the game, and lately I haven't played vs. stall that much. Does that experience mean that stall is out of the meta? No, not at all, because it's a really small sample of games from the pool of games that are played every day on ladder. So instead of just straight up affirming that stall doesn't exist at all in the meta, I use the tools at my disposal to assess its relevance, and the ONLY, and I repeat, ONLY tool we have right now for such purpose is the stats tab.

Of course, stall teams don't uniquely depend on 6 walls, thanks for explaining that to me, I wouldn't have been able to understand that otherwise. So let's check what are the most played Pokémon's most common allies, shall we?

 

Spoiler

Scizor:

Spoiler

Garchomp:

Spoiler

Dragonite:

Spoiler

Starmie:

Spoiler

Rotom:

Spoiler

Hydreigon:

Spoiler

Breloom:

Spoiler

Chansey:

Spoiler

Tyranitar:

Spoiler

Gliscor:

Spoiler

Skarmory:

Spoiler

Volcarona:

Spoiler

Serperior:

Spoiler

I'm, of course, not gonna list every single mon in the stats tab, because you can check them yourself, but as you can see, every single one of the mons I listed earlier as proof of stall not being "dominant" in the metagame is most commonly paired with, you guessed it, not stall mons. Skarmory/Rotom-Wash/Chansey might show here and there, but in those teams they fulfill the role of pivots/defoggers, and also happen to cover weaknesses of the mons listed.

 

No one pointed at winrate, furthermore, the winrate stat, like you said, is pretty meaningless on its own, because a million variables factor in that. We're also lacking a better tool to analyze our meta, since the PvP Statistics tab measures the ENTIRE metagame, without taking into account Elo or tournaments. But with the tools that we do have beyond hearsay or anecdotal, personal evidence, the stats clearly show that stall is NOT dominant in the metagame.

 

The topic of discussion here is not that, however, it's about Hydreigon and Draco Meteor. And this is my entire point: you can't have a Pokémon that completely destroys ladder just because there's an archetype you don't like in it. Even if we had comprehensive statistics separated by both elo and ladder type, and stall indeed dominated in high Elo (let's say top 100 for the sake of this example), you can't completely break the rest of the ranked ladder because of the sample of 100 players alone.

 

High Elo players playing stall is not the same as stall dominating the metagame either, because what makes up the metagame is not the 0,001% of the playerbase, but everything, all at once. You can't set loose a Pokémon that 2HKOes pretty much any wall in the game (which means it'll also destroy any defensive pivot, any sweeper that gets in its way) and then switch out with little to no risk/punishment only for it to come back to do the same thing again just because some guy won a tournament with stall.

 

Hydreigon having access to Draco Meteor in a metagame where we lack any means to deal with it outside Chansey and similar mons (and not even, because as smarter people than me already stated, it has multiple ways to bypass this possible check/counter by running Superpower, Taunt, Focus Energy, etc) isn't just unhealthy, it's meta warping. It forces you to consider a very specific mon when teambuilding, and even then there's no good answer when it comes to dealing with it, because it has a massive movepool, great typing that allows it to not get Pursuit-trapped, an ability that prevents it from getting chipped by hazards other than rocks + being trapped by Arena Trap; and coverage that is at the very least neutral to literally everything in the form of dragon + fire. Like someone mentioned earlier, the only thing setting it back a bit is its speed tier, and even that's not enough because of its more than decent bulk that allows it to not care about being outsped and hit by certain threats.

 

Also, the "stall is bad so hydra should stay" argument makes it seem as if there were no other wallbreaking options in the metagame. In my experience, both here and, in a different setting, Magic the Gathering, those who complain the most about stall are the ones who just can't recognize when a game is over and refuse to forfeit a very obviously lost game. An archetype existing (not dominating, by any means, as the tools at our disposal show) shouldn't be the reason for a completely broken, meta-warping Pokémon to be introduced into the metagame. If Hydreigon was ONLY GOOD vs. stall it would be somewhat acceptable, because it'd have its niche and role, but the thing is that if it's able to 2HKO most walls (even Empoleon, idk why it got brought up so much in this thread) then it's gonna be able to send every other mon in the metagame into a different postal code.

 

All in all, Hydreigon getting Draco Meteor should only be acceptable if we also got Fairy type *vomits, shudders, shivers, cries*, or maybe stuff like Heatran, but right now, with our current meta, it's just gamebreaking and nonsensical. If the metagame shifts because they introduce new mons or HAs, it would be deserving of a second look, but we haven't had those for months, so right now it's just not healthy for our metagame.

 

Edited December 28, 2023 by Doctor
i'm not very good at pasting screenshots in places and I've tried 3 times already so you get 2 free random usage screenshots with this post, muah ♥

[YourAngst]

33 minutes ago, Doctor said:

Okay, I didn't think there was a need for anyone to explain this, but I'm gonna give it a go and I'm not gonna base it on "but I feel it's like this!" so you can see what an actual argument looks like.

 

First of all, I also happen to play the game, and lately I haven't played vs. stall that much. Does that experience mean that stall is out of the meta? No, not at all, because it's a really small sample of games from the pool of games that are played every day on ladder. So instead of just straight up affirming that stall doesn't exist at all in the meta, I use the tools at my disposal to assess its relevance, and the ONLY, and I repeat, ONLY tool we have right now for such purpose is the stats tab.

Of course, stall teams don't uniquely depend on 6 walls, thanks for explaining that to me, I wouldn't have been able to understand that otherwise. So let's check what are the most played Pokémon's most common allies, shall we?

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Scizor:

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Garchomp:

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Dragonite:

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Starmie:

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Rotom:

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Hydreigon:

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Breloom:

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Chansey:

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Tyranitar:

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Gliscor:

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Skarmory:

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Volcarona:

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Serperior:

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I'm, of course, not gonna list every single mon in the stats tab, because you can check them yourself, but as you can see, every single one of the mons I listed earlier as proof of stall not being "dominant" in the metagame is most commonly paired with, you guessed it, not stall mons. Skarmory/Rotom-Wash/Chansey might show here and there, but in those teams they fulfill the role of pivots/defoggers, and also happen to cover weaknesses of the mons listed.

 

No one pointed at winrate, furthermore, the winrate stat, like you said, is pretty meaningless on its own, because a million variables factor in that. We're also lacking a better tool to analyze our meta, since the PvP Statistics tab measures the ENTIRE metagame, without taking into account Elo or tournaments. But with the tools that we do have beyond hearsay or anecdotal, personal evidence, the stats clearly show that stall is NOT dominant in the metagame.

 

The topic of discussion here is not that, however, it's about Hydreigon and Draco Meteor. And this is my entire point: you can't have a Pokémon that completely destroys ladder just because there's an archetype you don't like in it. Even if we had comprehensive statistics separated by both elo and ladder type, and stall indeed dominated in high Elo (let's say top 100 for the sake of this example), you can't completely break the rest of the ranked ladder because of the sample of 100 players alone.

 

High Elo players playing stall is not the same as stall dominating the metagame either, because what makes up the metagame is not the 0,001% of the playerbase, but everything, all at once. You can't set loose a Pokémon that 2HKOes pretty much any wall in the game (which means it'll also destroy any defensive pivot, any sweeper that gets in its way) and then switch out with little to no risk/punishment only for it to come back to do the same thing again just because some guy won a tournament with stall.

 

Hydreigon having access to Draco Meteor in a metagame where we lack any means to deal with it outside Chansey and similar mons (and not even, because as smarter people than me already stated, it has multiple ways to bypass this possible check/counter by running Superpower, Taunt, Focus Energy, etc) isn't just unhealthy, it's meta warping. It forces you to consider a very specific mon when teambuilding, and even then there's no good answer when it comes to dealing with it, because it has a massive movepool, great typing that allows it to not get Pursuit-trapped, an ability that prevents it from getting chipped by hazards other than rocks + being trapped by Arena Trap; and coverage that is at the very least neutral to literally everything in the form of dragon + fire. Like someone mentioned earlier, the only thing setting it back a bit is its speed tier, and even that's not enough because of its more than decent bulk that allows it to not care about being outsped and hit by certain threats.

 

Also, the "stall is bad so hydra should stay" argument makes it seem as if there were no other wallbreaking options in the metagame. In my experience, both here and, in a different setting, Magic the Gathering, those who complain the most about stall are the ones who just can't recognize when a game is over and refuse to forfeit a very obviously lost game. An archetype existing (not dominating, by any means, as the tools at our disposal show) shouldn't be the reason for a completely broken, meta-warping Pokémon to be introduced into the metagame. If Hydreigon was ONLY GOOD vs. stall it would be somewhat acceptable, because it'd have its niche and role, but the thing is that if it's able to 2HKO most walls (even Empoleon, idk why it got brought up so much in this thread) then it's gonna be able to send every other mon in the metagame into a different postal code.

 

All in all, Hydreigon getting Draco Meteor should only be acceptable if we also got Fairy type *vomits, shudders, shivers, cries*, or maybe stuff like Heatran, but right now, with our current meta, it's just gamebreaking and nonsensical. If the metagame shifts because they introduce new mons or HAs, it would be deserving of a second look, but we haven't had those for months, so right now it's just not healthy for our metagame.

 

Yeah i see now that in you re first post you were referring to dm hydra( and yes i genuinely did not catch on that) i completly agree that is broken and has no place in this metagame without the farys same thing i said in another post made on the ou disscusion (and many other posts) where i pointed out that is only worth a shouth out as to why did they decide to test it before sd chomp is beyond me, overall seems there was a comunitation problem on my end for which i want to say sorry also thanks for showing me how an acctual argument looks like. ( even tho what ive said about stall its not based on "but I feel it's like this!" its based on it is like this .)

 

However one thing i don t agree about is that stall not being the dominant playstyle when it clearly is and it does casue the problem of match up fishing the whole reson why i made that post some time ago when i did  but thats not a problem anymore out of all the things i said there we already got 1.5 sharpness on gallade and soon zapdos too who knows maybe an sd chomp retest soon who knows,  things are starting to look brigth again sorry for the misunderstanding ive casued

[Frag]

90% of ppl in this game plays ho, the only reason to call stall "dominant" over ho is bc 80% of them just click buttons and stall players have it easy.

Good players (just a few) most of the time will beat stall with 6 sweepers, there are stuff in ou that you just can't wall.

Also only 1/15 duels on ladder are vs stall.

 

Stall is not dominant, bad players are.

 

 

Edited December 28, 2023 by Frag
sad but tru

[Insou]

5 hours ago, YourAngst said:

Sorry but no , first this post has  nothing to do with the hydra dm movment and fits better in the OU Discussion thread and second yes stall is the dominant playstyle , I don t say this because I play HO or dislike the playstyle ( my favorite styles are bulky offense and balance and i play those the most ) I say its the dominant playstyle because i simply play the game that and combined with spectating and analyzing both the tournaments and the upper echelons of the ladder .

 

Also out of all the stats and information you could have pointed out the winrate dosen t help at all first winrate is subjective and dosen t fully represent the whole picture , especially the winrate showed on the very first summy page , it dosen t take into accaount all the possible teammates,items,moves,natures and ev spreads a certain mon had and how did those helped that mon to achieve that winrate ( if you were to throw scizor into any team with any moveset , any item ...ect  you will not win 50.68% of the time I point this out because this is what that winrate implays).

 

Another thing i have to ask is why did you point out so many mons? A stall team dosen t allways consist of 6 tanks (or whatever you want to call them ) that can take a lot of damage and heal it off , stall teams come in many shapes and sizes .

Here are 2 exemples :

This is a modern stall team ( i call them modern because thats how ive always called them , not because they appeared last week or this year or the last one , as far as i know they go back all the way to gen 5 and 6 , i can be wrong about theyr exact date) and as you can see its a team build around volcarona meant to support volcarona( I see now that it needs to be a Dugtrio over that skarmory to remove ttar but im not goona take another ss now )and take out all the mons that could stop volc from sweeping yet dosen t make it any less then a stall team and for reference those modern stall teams were invented by stall players to beat the ''normal'' stall teams to which you are referring.

They don t always have a special sweeper that wants to set up they can just as well have a physical one that acts as a wall braker ( my rule of thumb is that the physical mon always needs to be choice band and not set up)

 

The next  team even tho not something very original or hard to think about its intuitive and acts more or less as the first one :

 

And ofcourse dug over skarmory .

 

Also mons such as rotom-wash , mien and even starmie( in some niche cases) can just as well fit into stall teams so i don t get it why did you feel the need to point them out.

 

Another form of stall team wiche I personally don t know that much about is tactical stall that has 2 sweepers insteed of just one and unlike the more traditional stall looks to use those 2 as momentum gainers so most often then not they will be mons that are naturely fast (they don t want to be  choice scarfd) and there is also fat balance or hardcore balance that despite the name its still a stall team and im not going to elaborate more on this 2 teamstyles since this post is long enough as it is.

 

Tldr stall is the dominant playstyle and even a mon like scizor and fit into a stall team not as a sweeper but like an acctual tank/pivot haveing great typeing and access to roost ,defog and knock off

So... do you consider those "stall teams" that you posted to be a dominant team or?

[SuperBXdanielo]

7 hours ago, Doctor said:

Okay, I didn't think there was a need for anyone to explain this, but I'm gonna give it a go and I'm not gonna base it on "but I feel it's like this!" so you can see what an actual argument looks like.

 

First of all, I also happen to play the game, and lately I haven't played vs. stall that much. Does that experience mean that stall is out of the meta? No, not at all, because it's a really small sample of games from the pool of games that are played every day on ladder. So instead of just straight up affirming that stall doesn't exist at all in the meta, I use the tools at my disposal to assess its relevance, and the ONLY, and I repeat, ONLY tool we have right now for such purpose is the stats tab.

Of course, stall teams don't uniquely depend on 6 walls, thanks for explaining that to me, I wouldn't have been able to understand that otherwise. So let's check what are the most played Pokémon's most common allies, shall we?

 

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Scizor:

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Garchomp:

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Dragonite:

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Starmie:

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Rotom:

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Hydreigon:

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Breloom:

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Chansey:

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Tyranitar:

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Gliscor:

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Skarmory:

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Volcarona:

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Serperior:

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I'm, of course, not gonna list every single mon in the stats tab, because you can check them yourself, but as you can see, every single one of the mons I listed earlier as proof of stall not being "dominant" in the metagame is most commonly paired with, you guessed it, not stall mons. Skarmory/Rotom-Wash/Chansey might show here and there, but in those teams they fulfill the role of pivots/defoggers, and also happen to cover weaknesses of the mons listed.

 

No one pointed at winrate, furthermore, the winrate stat, like you said, is pretty meaningless on its own, because a million variables factor in that. We're also lacking a better tool to analyze our meta, since the PvP Statistics tab measures the ENTIRE metagame, without taking into account Elo or tournaments. But with the tools that we do have beyond hearsay or anecdotal, personal evidence, the stats clearly show that stall is NOT dominant in the metagame.

 

The topic of discussion here is not that, however, it's about Hydreigon and Draco Meteor. And this is my entire point: you can't have a Pokémon that completely destroys ladder just because there's an archetype you don't like in it. Even if we had comprehensive statistics separated by both elo and ladder type, and stall indeed dominated in high Elo (let's say top 100 for the sake of this example), you can't completely break the rest of the ranked ladder because of the sample of 100 players alone.

 

High Elo players playing stall is not the same as stall dominating the metagame either, because what makes up the metagame is not the 0,001% of the playerbase, but everything, all at once. You can't set loose a Pokémon that 2HKOes pretty much any wall in the game (which means it'll also destroy any defensive pivot, any sweeper that gets in its way) and then switch out with little to no risk/punishment only for it to come back to do the same thing again just because some guy won a tournament with stall.

 

Hydreigon having access to Draco Meteor in a metagame where we lack any means to deal with it outside Chansey and similar mons (and not even, because as smarter people than me already stated, it has multiple ways to bypass this possible check/counter by running Superpower, Taunt, Focus Energy, etc) isn't just unhealthy, it's meta warping. It forces you to consider a very specific mon when teambuilding, and even then there's no good answer when it comes to dealing with it, because it has a massive movepool, great typing that allows it to not get Pursuit-trapped, an ability that prevents it from getting chipped by hazards other than rocks + being trapped by Arena Trap; and coverage that is at the very least neutral to literally everything in the form of dragon + fire. Like someone mentioned earlier, the only thing setting it back a bit is its speed tier, and even that's not enough because of its more than decent bulk that allows it to not care about being outsped and hit by certain threats.

 

Also, the "stall is bad so hydra should stay" argument makes it seem as if there were no other wallbreaking options in the metagame. In my experience, both here and, in a different setting, Magic the Gathering, those who complain the most about stall are the ones who just can't recognize when a game is over and refuse to forfeit a very obviously lost game. An archetype existing (not dominating, by any means, as the tools at our disposal show) shouldn't be the reason for a completely broken, meta-warping Pokémon to be introduced into the metagame. If Hydreigon was ONLY GOOD vs. stall it would be somewhat acceptable, because it'd have its niche and role, but the thing is that if it's able to 2HKO most walls (even Empoleon, idk why it got brought up so much in this thread) then it's gonna be able to send every other mon in the metagame into a different postal code.

 

All in all, Hydreigon getting Draco Meteor should only be acceptable if we also got Fairy type *vomits, shudders, shivers, cries*, or maybe stuff like Heatran, but right now, with our current meta, it's just gamebreaking and nonsensical. If the metagame shifts because they introduce new mons or HAs, it would be deserving of a second look, but we haven't had those for months, so right now it's just not healthy for our metagame.

 

First of all, i don't think the Pokemon you listed are really a proof that stall isn't dominant, because they are very common in other types of teams as I think you already said. But we have a pokemon that is rarely seen outside of a stall team, and it is suicune.

 

Suicune is a great way to understand how stall are played in our metagame. It have a way higher win rate than the normal pokemon despite normally going against really skilled players, because of it's high price excluding new players to using it in lower tiers (the high use in tournaments is a good proof of this argument), and despite being probably the best sweeper in the game, this very high price (as well of his teammates, who need to be 4×31 or 5×31 to work properly) and the own way that stall is played (which most players don't have the time or don't like to play) prevent him for having higher usage.

 

It's makes stall very influential in the meta, because is really hard to fight against and you can't just play the same type of team if you don't have the money or time to play this style, so the best way to combat it is using Hyper offense, who is the best counter against stall. This make the meta very focused on this stall versus hyper offense fight, where the balanced teams don't have the offensive power to take down a stall team and some times ends up falling victim of the hyper offense high power too. 

 

So the best way to combat it is using counters that take down more defensive teams whitout so much trouble, like gallade and hydreigon, that at the same time, don't give balanced teams that much of a challenge, as I they are very easy to speed control, thing that I already said and you ignored.

 

[Doctor]

14 minutes ago, SuperBXdanielo said:

First of all, i don't think the Pokemon you listed are really a proof that stall isn't dominant, because they are very common in other types of teams as I think you already said. But we have a pokemon that is rarely seen outside of a stall team, and it is suicune.

 

Suicune is a great way to understand how stall are played in our metagame. It have a way higher win rate than the normal pokemon despite normally going against really skilled players, because of it's high price excluding new players to using it in lower tiers (the high use in tournaments is a good proof of this argument), and despite being probably the best sweeper in the game, this very high price (as well of his teammates, who need to be 4×31 or 5×31 to work properly) and the own way that stall is played (which most players don't have the time or don't like to play) prevent him for having higher usage.

 

It's makes stall very influential in the meta, because is really hard to fight against and you can't just play the same type of team if you don't have the money or time to play this style, so the best way to combat it is using Hyper offense, who is the best counter against stall. This make the meta very focused on this stall versus hyper offense fight, where the balanced teams don't have the offensive power to take down a stall team and some times ends up falling victim of the hyper offense high power too. 

 

So the best way to combat it is using counters that take down more defensive teams whitout so much trouble, like gallade and hydreigon, that at the same time, don't give balanced teams that much of a challenge, as I they are very easy to speed control, thing that I already said and you ignored.

 

How did you conveniently ignored what I said about high elo players using something =/= it being dominant in the meta? How can you say that it has low usage then go on and repeat that stall is somehow dominant? Make it make sense, and let's stop derailing the thread because if stall is or isn't dominant (which I have extensively proven to not be, and the top OU players have agreed on that) is not what is being discussed here, but rather if Hydreigon is too strong with Draco Meteor or not. And the problem, like, again, I have explained thoroughly, is that Hydreigon isn't a check/counter of stall by its own merits, but rather because it absolutely melts and destroys EVERYTHING in its way. You mentioned Gallade which funnily enough was already deemed Uber offensive so you pretty much confirmed what I said point by point lmao

[DoubleJ]

I think my man was just trying to say that Draco Meteor is good for the game because Stall can be so strong when used correctly. 

[Doctor]

But that's like saying Kyurem-B would be good for the game because it would beat stall. The entire point is that basing the argument on "it beats this specific archetype" that is nowhere dominant while ignoring that it also destroys everything else non-stall is like trying to kill a fly that landed on you with a shotgun, it's gonna backfire and make the entire tier unbearable at all Elo ranges.

 

Not to mention that Hydreigon is already really good at beating stall because of its huge movepool at access to both Taunt and Nasty Plot, it doesn't need Draco Meteor to be a wallbreaker, it already fulfilled that role perfectly.

Edited December 28, 2023 by Doctor

[DoubleJ]

14 minutes ago, Doctor said:

But that's like saying Kyurem-B would be good for the game because it would beat stall. The entire point is that basing the argument on "it beats this specific archetype" that is nowhere dominant while ignoring that it also destroys everything else non-stall is like trying to kill a fly that landed on you with a shotgun, it's gonna backfire and make the entire tier unbearable at all Elo ranges.

 

Not to mention that Hydreigon is already really good at beating stall because of its huge movepool at access to both Taunt and Nasty Plot, it doesn't need Draco Meteor to be a wallbreaker, it already fulfilled that role perfectly.

With advances in defensive play over the years, PokeMMO has really nerfed wallbreaking to the point that common walls really had little to fear and well built defensive cores (or entire teams)  could withstand most archetypes. Assault Gear, Regenerator, Magic Guard, Levitate, Cursed Body, berries and other held items have really boosted defenses to the point that there are very few wallbreakers that can OHKO a mon that simply waits to be healed by a teammate.

 

So I do appreciate when players comment on the benefits of Draco Meteor, which does help the TC better understand if it's competitive and healthy, or simply broken and/or unhealthy.

 

(We could also discuss nerfing gems which have been a huge boost for offense, and makes Draco Meteor even more fearsome.)