[UU Discussion] Kangaskhan

[Tyrone]

 
Kangaskhan is right now the most used pokemon in UU and this is no surprise. Normal typing, Early Bird ability, well distributed base stats and a pretty decent movepool are the perfect combination for a good versatile pokemon. When facing a non scouted Kangaskhan, there is no way of knowing whether it is a fast physical atacker, bulky physical attacker or a special wall. The latter seem to be the most popular, but also the most problematic. 
 
Rest + Early Bird allow Kanga to heal up and cure status in a single move unlike other special walls like Cradily, Clefable, Altaria (forced to switch to activate natural cure) and Lanturn that don't have the same luxury. Thanks to this mechanic, Kanga can have 3 coverage moves which is a enormous advantage.For instance, the pseudo-classic moveset Ice Punch, Toxic, Double-edge gives unprecedented coverage on a Careful Kangaskhan. Basically, Kangaskhan is a safe switch on all special attackers and doesn't allow physical attackers to switch in without relatively important level of risk. 

 

Vileplume, slowking, quagsire, cradily, and exeggutor don't really have any good method of beating Kangaskhan. On the other hand, Kangaskhan can easily toxic them and rest off damage/status. Kangaskhan can win the pp war agaisnt Vileplume, and the others just lose to toxic stall. There are very few switch ins that actually work for Kangaskhan as very few pokemon don't mind a toxic or taking a stab return/double edge. Steelix can switch in, but unless its choice banded, it can't actually break through Kangaskhan. 
 

Another issue is Kanga's 90 base speed which is remarkable for a special wall. The best wallbreakers in the tier (Granbull, Crawdaunt, Azumarill and others) can't compete: even with 252 ev speed as adamant, they are all slower than a 0 ev speed Careful Kangaskhan. 

 
Special Wall
Item: Leftovers
Nature: Careful
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpDef

• Rest
• Double-Edge/Earthquake
• Ice Punch
• Toxic

Bulky Attacker
Item: Leftovers/Silk Scarf

EVs: 252 HP, 252 ATK

Nature: Adamant

Notes: Kanga can invest 60 speed EV's to beat Crawdaunt, 196 to beat Breloom

• Double Edge
• Earthquake
• Fire Punch/Toxic/Ice Punch
• Rest

Choice Band

Item: Silk Scarf/CB

EVs: 252ATK with Speed or HP Investment

Nature: Jolly/Adamant

• Double-Edge
• Earthquake
• Fake Out/Rest
• Ice Punch/Fire Punch/Crunch

Wannabe Clefable (with better stats)
Item: Leftovers
Nature: Careful/Calm
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpDef

• Seismic Toss
• Toxic
• Ice Punch/Protect
• Rest/Wish

 

Kangaskhan's contribution to defensive cores seems somehow unhealthy and the Tier Council would like to hear what you think about Kangaskhan's place in UU. 

 

Thanks to the Tier Council for the write-up.

[DaftCoolio]

who even uses ice punch dont people use fire punch

[KaynineXL]

who even uses ice punch dont people use fire punch

People started using it for Cradily, no? Or maybe Altaria?

 

I just seem to recall people using it more often.

Edited February 17, 2016 by KaynineXL

[RysPicz]

who even uses ice punch dont people use fire punch

After ban of Sciz, firepunch isn't needed much anymore and icepunch covers Altaria which becomes quite popular defense wall (cuz brelum I think?)

E:

and Cradily

E2:

Kay ninja'd me

Edited February 17, 2016 by RysPicz

[Havsha]

Wall Kanga shuts down Sp Attackers almost completely.

[spoiler]

+2 252 SpA Jynx Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Kangaskhan: 124-147 (58.4 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 Atk Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jynx: 142-168 (101.4 - 120%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

+1 252 SpA Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Kangaskhan: 87-103 (41 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

0 Atk Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manectric: 110-130 (75.8 - 89.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

+1 252 SpA Haunter Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Kangaskhan: 88-105 (41.5 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

0 Atk Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Haunter: 108-128 (90 - 106.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

 

252+ SpA Houndoom Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Kangaskhan: 67-79 (31.6 - 37.2%) -- 83.6% chance to 3HKO

0 Atk Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Houndoom: 124-148 (82.6 - 98.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

[/spoiler]

And, unless its already suffering, its not so easy to pursuit trap.

[spoiler]

252+ Atk Choice Band Swellow Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 68-81 (32 - 38.2%) -- 96.3% chance to 3HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Absol Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 135-160 (63.6 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

(I'm a scrub, so not sure if I did the pursuit calcs right, I used it with base power of 80 to include the switch out? Please feel free to correct me.)

[/spoiler]

 

Lf Ban Hammer?

[DestructX]

i feel like uu would be a mess without kangaskhan, but at the same time it's sorta a mess with kanga

although id hope haunter is quick banned  if kangaskhan goes

[BlackJovi]

As for the 'nothing can switch in' part, here are some banded calcs: 

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Exeggutor: 109-129 (53.9 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vileplume: 109-129 (59.8 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blastoise: 99-117 (53.2 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Kangaskhan Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cradily: 116-138 (60.1 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Omastar: 94-112 (53.4 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Lanturn: 232-274 (100 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ampharos: 132-156 (67 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Quagsire: 118-141 (58.4 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Steelix: 84-100 (46.1 - 54.9%) -- 9.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Granbull: 114-135 (57.8 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Kangaskhan Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Altaria: 176-208 (96.7 - 114.2%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Claydol: 105-124 (62.8 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

 

Please feel free to correct me if anything. 

 

 

Edited February 17, 2016 by BlackJovi

[OrangeManiac]

I honestly think SpecWall Kangaskhan is actually good for the metagame. It checks stuff like Manectric which can sweep through the metagame without Kangaskhan while a lot of physical offense can hit it fairly well. The problem relies that this thing is simply so unpredictable and that makes it so good. There are little if no drawbacks of bringing a Kangaskhan in your UU team, either as a sweeper or a specwall.

[fredrichnietze]

just gonna leave this here

[spoiler]

im never going to play nu again so

mawile

impish 252 hp 252 def

@ leftovers

intimidate

-super fang

-rest

-sleep talk

-crunch or iron tail

 

as counter for non cb khan it does pretty well. could go toxic over the attack but then you cant hit haunter =/. and if you are argue useage i will punch you.

[/spoiler]

[OldKeith]

random obscure mon unviable even in nu

 

Let's not fool ourselves, Kangaskhan is a problem for the meta. As a wall, it is not unbreakable; however, two elements make it too strong:

1. The high base speed - this allows it to hit twice in a row for most switch-ins, and toxic a non-poison/steel type.

2. The presence of a 120 base power STAB move, which makes it hit insanely hard and threaten most UU pokemon with a 2hko

 

Kangaskhan is a problem, because of the stally nature of the special wall rest set. A recovery move that sacrifices two turns for a full recovery and status heal is a bit too much for uu too handle. To add to this, coverage moves like Earthquake, Ice Punch (freeze galore), and even the presence of toxic alone allows Kang to tear holes through teams, while there is literally no drawback to using it. Unlike most walls, nothing can come in and setup a substitute on it. Nothing can wall it without getting toxic'd, and the few poison types we have lose to Kang - Tentacruel will get 2-shot by double edge, while Vileplume will simply get pp stalled.

 

I have seen so many UU matches go down to a Kang PP stall that it is not even funny anymore.

 

I do agree that Manectric can go out of hand in UU without Kangaskhan, but let's focus on the real problem we have now.

[gbwead]

About Manectric:

Even without Kanga, Cradily and Clefable stop Manectric effectively. I have personally never used Kanga/Cradily/Clefable in UU, so the way I handled Manectric was with the combination of Spwall Altaria + Lanturn/Quagsire. Then we have pokemons like Ampharos/Muk/Claydol that can check Manectric and keep decent pressure at the same time. Ultimetaly, I might be wrong, but as long as Swellow is around Manectric should not be able to sweep that easily.

 

About Haunter:

Haunter is scary, but just like Manectric it can't really sweep as long as Swellow is around. Depending on Haunter moveset, Cradily/Clefable/Steelix/Houndoom could potentially handle Haunter.

[OrangeManiac]

I think this got a bit derailed after I said "it checks Manectric". What I'm saying that we constantly talk about specwall Kanga and it is the most common Kangaskhan. I personally don't think there's much wrong with a specwall Kangaskhan in the UU metagame. I meant that specwall Kanga as its own is just a good thing for the meta and not broken.

Edited February 18, 2016 by OrangeManiac

[OldKeith]

I meant that specwall Kanga as its own is just a good thing for the meta and not broken.

 

How is forcing PP stall in late games a good thing for the meta?

[OrangeManiac]

How is forcing PP stall in late games a good thing for the meta?

 

With the low damage output from offensively uninvested means there are fair amount Choice Banders that can come in and hit Kangaskhan fairly hard. The problem relies in that I wouldn't send in any of those Pokemon before I'm a sure it's a specwall Kanga. In addition, we again reach the problem of Slowking and Vileplume eating those Superpowers and Water-offensive moves which is the main offense in the UU metagame. Here we reach more to the "broken core" situation than "broken Kangaskhan", I suppose but if there was something to break it down it's the fact Kangaskhan is the best Pokemon in the tier and even I acknowledge it and have said it many times before. But unless you run walls yourself, Kangaskhan doesn't really force PP stalls unless you're doing it yourself. Is the fact defense is the most powerful thing in UU right now, could be. But as its own considering 1v1 matchups there are plenty that can hit a wall Kangaskhan hard.

Edited February 17, 2016 by OrangeManiac

[RysPicz]

1. The defensive power

 

Kanga walls literally every special attacker we got in the tier currently, including calm mind users which are uncommon anyway due to Houndoom's presence. It walls, but it doesn't totally disable them. Is this a bad thing? Chansey does the same in OU, practically disabling special attackers from the use with only several exceptions that work only under specific circumstances. So from my point of view, we cannot ban Kanga under defensive circumstances (even though I feel like most of people adress the sdef Kanga as issue).

 

2. The power

 

This isn't an issue either. Why? Kangaskhan can 2hko most of threats with it's CB set, but once it's locked and scouted as CB, it becomes predictable. We got even harder hitter with access to Swords Dance (Zangoose) that after a single boost can wipe out entire teams and it's on a very low usage. So once again, this isn't an issue.

 

3. The centralization

 

GOTTEM. Yup, Kangaskhan centralizes the metagame a lot. Sometimes I feel like it is a necessary evil in this tier, due to it's unpredictability and both defensive and offensive power, but sometimes I fall asleep when I see Kangaskhan stalling out Plume or any other poke with it's toxic rest 2 attack set (or rest +3 attacks which I'm starting to see a bit more often). Kangaskhan became so good that it fits in literally every UU team now, and with Scizor gone, it only gained even more power and room to spam it's STAB + coverage moves as there's no need to keep Fire Punch and it can now cover some pokes like Haunter or Omastar.

 

4. Too good not to use

 

Yeah. Usage stats speak loud enough. I feel like I see Kanga in every UU match.

 

The only way I would see Kanga getting the boot is under unhealthy cathegory, but is it really that cancerous or is it necessary evil in UU to keep everything sticky?

 

I would actually wait a bit with making any decision about Kanga since Sciz ban just happened and due to our super slow-evolving meta, we cannot adapt to it quickly. I would give it a bit of time to see how meta evolves after Sciz saying "bye". I honestly don't have a well-developed opinion about either banning or letting Kanga stay, I'd like to hear the community's opinion about it :v)[spoiler] (I swear the fact that I just bought one has absolutely no impact on this post)[/spoiler]

[DoubleJ]

To open, I'd like to say that I agree with OrangeManiac regarding how beneficial SpDef Kangaskhan has become for the meta. It checks a lot of powerful threats and offers a specially defensive option that can actually strike back against the powerful special sweepers in the tier like Manectric, Haunter, Sunny Exegg, Agility Ampharos, Rain Omastar, etc. The tier has effectively shifted and in the most recent tournaments there has been variation in play styles to effectively counter this Kangaskhan set, which has limited the number of late-game PP stalls between two opposing Kangaskhans. The initial hype was seen when this Kangaskhan was introduced to the tier and became so effective. Since then, players are beginning to use CB Hitmonlee, CB Azumarill, CB Donphan, and various other pokes that can scare Kangaskhan away. The unfortunate thing is that most of these take a big hit from STAB DE, so switch ins are limited. 

 

tl;d There are a lot of pros and a lot of cons to SpDef Kangaskhan, and this will be a very difficult decision to make. Right now, I see at as being more beneficial to the tier since it creates diversity (outside of its own use) and it stops a lot of otherwise broken special attackers. 

 

The unfortunate aspect though of Kangaskhan is that it also has a very powerful Choice Band option in a tier that has difficulty handling CB Normal spam from a bulky (and fast) pokemon. This diversity can be crippling to any potential switch ins, since a counter for a CB and a SpWall Kangaskhan are greatly different.

 

 

How is forcing PP stall in late games a good thing for the meta?

 

The past two tournaments revealed a lot of diversity in UU and there were very few of these Kanga v Kanga stall matches. What we have to realize is that we have had a very small sample size of tournaments... 4 since the Scizor test ban... to assess the meta. I would suggest a couple more tournaments with Kangaskhan, maybe even a period of three or four, and then moving this discussion toward a possible test ban if Kangaskhan continues to be a problem.

 

But right now, we just need more information and more of UU.

[Toast]

Gonna agree with JJ here, it's really nice to see the diversity in UU. Imo Kanga is that one poke where it is safe to use, and I don't think that's a good or bad thing. Kanga checks/counters majority of the special attackers in the tier, but it can be worked around once Kanga is scouted with its set. Once you know what kind of Kanga it is, it's really predictable and you can almost always know what it'll do. Also, physical attackers are more dominant in UU imo, and although they can't switch in onto Kanga's moves, like I said before, once you know the set it's a lot easier to work around it.

[OldKeith]

With the low damage output from offensively uninvested means there are fair amount Choice Banders that can come in and hit Kangaskhan fairly hard.

 

0 Atk Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs...

4 HP Swellow 71.3% - 84.6%

4 HP Breloom 57.4% - 68.4%

4 HP Donphan 34.3% - 40.4%

4 HP Crawdaunt 54% - 63.3%

4 HP Hitmonlee 85.7% - 100.8% (LOL)

4 HP Hundoom 73.5% - 87.4%

4 HP Azumarill 44.3% - 52.8%

4 HP Granbull 33.1% - 39.8% (if intimidated)

 

It also outspeeds the bolded ones. So not sure where this "low damage output" is coming from; this monster clearly cannot be switched in by most choice banders. Low risk to bring in vs special attacker. It does get to be predictable when it needs to rest, but that makes it an incredibly powerful stall machine. 

[OrangeManiac]

I tended to run mu Azus, Donpys and Granbulls bulky so I never experinced the damage that significant and often gave a chance for later Wish to cover their butts. But I suppose to limit slower offense to investing to bulk instead of speed is quite centralizing.

[PandaJJ]

Can I point out that clefable is just as bulky and has the same typing as kangaskhan? The only difference between the two is the offensive pressure. As has been shown with the provided calcs, kangaskhan is the equivalent of non-curse snorlax in OU - it walls everything, and it hits hard without any consequences. And, should you be extra unlucky, it has cb to make your life hard too (except this time, we have a snorlax that outspeeds a huge portion of the metagame.) None of you are making valid ponts against a kangaskhan ban. Talking about how some pokemon might become a problem after the ban is not relevant, and you should know that.

[fredrichnietze]

Let's not fool ourselves, Kangaskhan is a problem for the meta. As a wall, it is not unbreakable; however, two elements make it too strong:

1. The high base speed - this allows it to hit twice in a row for most switch-ins, and toxic a non-poison/steel type.

2. The presence of a 120 base power STAB move, which makes it hit insanely hard and threaten most UU pokemon with a 2hko

 

Kangaskhan is a problem, because of the stally nature of the special wall rest set. A recovery move that sacrifices two turns for a full recovery and status heal is a bit too much for uu too handle. To add to this, coverage moves like Earthquake, Ice Punch (freeze galore), and even the presence of toxic alone allows Kang to tear holes through teams, while there is literally no drawback to using it. Unlike most walls, nothing can come in and setup a substitute on it. Nothing can wall it without getting toxic'd, and the few poison types we have lose to Kang - Tentacruel will get 2-shot by double edge, while Vileplume will simply get pp stalled.

 

I have seen so many UU matches go down to a Kang PP stall that it is not even funny anymore.

 

I do agree that Manectric can go out of hand in UU without Kangaskhan, but let's focus on the real problem we have now.

first off fuck you, phsy wall mawile is great. and dont you dare argue usage on a usage defined teir since we all know how this cycle works. something looks scary then a unused counter comes out of the woodwork to deal with it then it catches on and something else is the big threat.

fucking calcs

[spoiler]

-1 0 Atk Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mawile: 40-48 (25.4 - 30.5%) -- 2.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mawile: 80-96 (50.9 - 61.1%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

yea it doesnt counter cb set EQ obviously, however you argument is defensive and only defensive is a problem and the others are just unpredictability thrown in.

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mawile: 64-76 (40.7 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 69-82 (40.1 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

oh does intimidate mawile wall as well as skarm after intimidate? or within 1%

fucking super fang on a wall is scary look at nidoqueen. it hurts everything but ghost and none of them like crunch or iron tail. only insta healers can really laugh off super fang's well and with sleep talk mawile wins most pp stalls by forcing the insta healers to heal up till they run out. toxic does ok but >haunter. TL:DR fuck off keith

[/spoiler]

yea it has good speed but investment hurts. literally. also do you use khan? because it sounds like you dont and have a very narrow veiwpoint here. dedge is a double edged sword which is why so many people run return or bslam. makes it very easy to kill with a crit or revenge khan. 

also nidoqueen does well as a anti khan and what do you know? relaxed queen w moonlight and 252 hp even stops haunter and trike.

hey how about golem? bulky cb kingler? rest toise? sub/disable haunter(needs to come in on not ice punch ofc but still good check ask bowser)? ect...

 

the problem isnt "nothing stops this omg" it's that no one uses what does stop it. now maybe "absolutely everything that can stop khan sucks and should never be used omg" or maybe the problem is stagmentation in the meta (can you spell B R E E D I N G S U C K S ?) or ban happy peoples or just a matter of time until people try new things and get out of their comfort zones.

 

TL;DR fuck you keith i just wanted to post one counter and you made me make a real post

[OrangeManiac]

Interesting to see how the tier discussion has evolved over time. Back in the day people didn't want to ban TTar when everyone swept with it or got swept by it and tried to argue about the little you could argue in order to keep the Pokemon available. It seems now that Pokemon are getting mostly ban verdicts on the first page of each discussion and you rather have to have arguments for why something shouldn't get banned.

Just an overall thought, not entirely referring to this thread and I'm aware I tend to be as quilty about this than the rest of us but just saying. And before I get quoted by trying to intepret that I don't find Kangaskhan problematic at all, I think most likely it needs the boot but yeah.

[OldKeith]

first off fuck you, phsy wall mawile is great. and dont you dare argue usage on a usage defined teir since we all know how this cycle works. something looks scary then a unused counter comes out of the woodwork to deal with it then it catches on and something else is the big threat.

fucking calcs

[spoiler]

-1 0 Atk Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mawile: 40-48 (25.4 - 30.5%) -- 2.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mawile: 80-96 (50.9 - 61.1%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

yea it doesnt counter cb set EQ obviously, however you argument is defensive and only defensive is a problem and the others are just unpredictability thrown in.

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mawile: 64-76 (40.7 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 69-82 (40.1 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

oh does intimidate mawile wall as well as skarm after intimidate? or within 1%

fucking super fang on a wall is scary look at nidoqueen. it hurts everything but ghost and none of them like crunch or iron tail. only insta healers can really laugh off super fang's well and with sleep talk mawile wins most pp stalls by forcing the insta healers to heal up till they run out. toxic does ok but >haunter. TL:DR fuck off keith

[/spoiler]

yea it has good speed but investment hurts. literally. also do you use khan? because it sounds like you dont and have a very narrow veiwpoint here. dedge is a double edged sword which is why so many people run return or bslam. makes it very easy to kill with a crit or revenge khan. 

also nidoqueen does well as a anti khan and what do you know? relaxed queen w moonlight and 252 hp even stops haunter and trike.

hey how about golem? bulky cb kingler? rest toise? sub/disable haunter(needs to come in on not ice punch ofc but still good check ask bowser)? ect...

 

the problem isnt "nothing stops this omg" it's that no one uses what does stop it. now maybe "absolutely everything that can stop khan sucks and should never be used omg" or maybe the problem is stagmentation in the meta (can you spell B R E E D I N G S U C K S ?) or ban happy peoples or just a matter of time until people try new things and get out of their comfort zones.

 

TL;DR fuck you keith i just wanted to post one counter and you made me make a real post

 

When Kang has a great HP base, Double-Edge becomes much less of a drawback. All the pokemon you mentioned stall /kangaskhan instead of beating it. Now I am not sure if the personal attacks are a joke or not (I sincerely hope they are), I do have 4 Kangaskhans and that is not even relevant to the discussion, it is just stupid to bring that up.

 

Let me remind you that obscure counters, pokemon that are very inefficient against most of the UU meta will have trouble making an impact, simply because Kang will switch out. Mawile will stall khan into rest, Bulky attackers can have the problem that they take chip damage twice from khan then they are in killing range from pretty much anything else.

 

Let's do the bulky calcs, Double-Edge vs:

252 HP Azumarill 37.7% - 44.9% (3HKO)

252 HP Kingler 35.8% - 42.6% (3HKO)

252 HP Donphan 28.9% - 34% (usually 4HKO)

 

There are still some banders that can come in on Kangaskhan relatively safe:

-Golem, although landing on EQ is not great

-Armaldo

-Steelix

 

However, as I mentioned before, when a pokemon can perform the role of being a hard hitter, a special wall and faster than most attackers, all at the same time, there is a problem.

[PandaJJ]

Interesting to see how the tier discussion has evolved over time. Back in the day people didn't want to ban TTar when everyone swept with it or got swept by it and tried to argue about the little you could argue in order to keep the Pokemon available. It seems now that Pokemon are getting mostly ban verdicts on the first page of each discussion and you rather have to have arguments for why something shouldn't get banned.

 

It is also important to remember that "back in the day" UU was not determined by usage, but was an already preset list of "underused" pokemon that did not seem overpowered. Today's UU was created by usage, and we had very few quick bans, despite these being sorely needed. The process of going through all the obvious ubers was very slow, and was set back a lot by several unbannings that were completely uncalled for (probably the biggest tiering mistakes in the history of this game.) The fact that there are still pokemon in UU that are clearly banworthy is not a big surprise considering all of that. We are just interested in a healthy metagame after all, not "I want to use my kangaskhan otherwise I'll cry," which was seemingly the mentality way back.

[OrangeManiac]

It is also important to remember that "back in the day" UU was not determined by usage, but was an already preset list of "underused" pokemon that did not seem overpowered. Today's UU was created by usage, and we had very few quick bans, despite these being sorely needed. The process of going through all the obvious ubers was very slow, and was set back a lot by several unbannings that were completely uncalled for (probably the biggest tiering mistakes in the history of this game.) The fact that there are still pokemon in UU that are clearly banworthy is not a big surprise considering all of that. We are just interested in a healthy metagame after all, not "I want to use my kangaskhan otherwise I'll cry," which was seemingly the mentality way back.

 

Yeah we are all for the healthy metagame but even if every single ban that was made quickly back in the day was the right thing to do tiering wise, it's still a good example why not to ban things quickly. Someone always starts to second guessing stuff and for a reason. You are right about the fact that don't keep OP stuff in the tier to check other OP stuff, yet I think it would be a mistake to not look at the metagame after a ban at all. Especially in unhealthiness bans, like Kangaskhan will most likely go down to. We must be at least somewhat certain the metagame will be better than the one we have here after the ban or at least going in the right direction. Btw, pretty sure everything that was unbanned back in the day are banned again now barring Slowking and we don't consider it that much of a threat as its own anymore more than being effective in the metagame we are in now, I suppose.

 

I hate to go all Smogon here because I hate when it's overly quoted here but by what I've seen they are fairly progressive with their tiering and I think it's part of the reason it's so effective.

 

 

Also I wanna address something here: If we were in a metagame with Clefable as the specwall instead of Kangaskhan, would the metagame be better?

Edited February 18, 2016 by OrangeManiac