gbwead Posted June 6, 2016 Share Posted June 6, 2016 Dodrio appears to be the most threathening pokemon in UU right now. Its 110 base attack stat combined with 2 stabs and an excellent movepool is quite disarming. Rock and Steel types – that resist Return/Double-Edge and Drill Peck – fear Low Kick. Omastar looks like the only viable Rock/Steel type to not get 2HKO by Low Kick, but Omastar takes severe damage from HP Grass Life Ball Dodrio. The fact that Dodrio is an effective wallbreaker is not really a problem. Dodrio is kind of fragile and gets worn down by some status unlike Swellow. However, Dodrio is more than just a wallbreaker; its 100 base speed stat makes it a nearly unstopable wallbreaker. What can really outspeed and threathen Dodrio? Manectric? Swellow? Crobat maybe? Swift Choice Band pokemons? The list isn’t long. For these reasons, the Tier Council would like to get community input on Dodrio’s place in UU. Does Dodrio fit Offensive Uber characteristics? Spoiler Adamant Steelix 252 Atk Life Orb Dodrio Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Steelix: 88-104 (48.3 - 57.1%) -- 34.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery Impish Steelix 252 Atk Life Orb Dodrio Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Steelix: 68-82 (37.3 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery 252+ Atk Choice Band Dodrio Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Steelix: 88-104 (48.3 - 57.1%) -- 34.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery Impish Solrock 252+ Atk Choice Band Dodrio Steel Wing vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Solrock: 94-112 (53.1 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery Impish Scizor 252+ Atk Choice Band Dodrio Drill Peck vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Scizor: 73-87 (41.2 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO Careful Cradily 252+ Atk Life Orb Dodrio Low Kick (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cradily: 120-142 (62.1 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery Bold Omastar 252 Atk Life Orb Dodrio Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Omastar: 52-62 (29.5 - 35.2%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery 0 SpA Life Orb Dodrio Hidden Power Grass vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Omastar: 124-148 (70.4 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery Checks to Life Ball Dodrio 252 Atk Life Orb Dodrio Drill Peck vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Shuckle: 33-39 (26.1 - 30.9%) -- 5.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery 252+ Atk Life Orb Dodrio Low Kick (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Miltank: 82-98 (40.5 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery Movesets: Choice Band Dodrio Item: Choice Band Ev: 252 atk | 252 speed | 4 hp Nature: Jolly/Adamant Return/Double-Edge Drill Peck Low Kick Quick Attack/Pursuit/Steel Wing Life Ball Dodrio Item: Life Ball Ev: 252 atk | 252 speed | 4 hp Nature: Lonely/Jolly/Adamant Return/Double-Edge Drill Peck Low Kick Hidden Power Grass BlackJovi, RysPicz, Kurodashi and 2 others 5 Link to comment
Darkshade Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 Moved to Competition Alley for public discussion. gbwead 1 Link to comment
OrangeManiac Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 b-b-but gb ur just mad cuz u cant use walls Spoiler Dodrio is just too much. It sweeps the late tier way too easily because it is the fastest of the most viable metagame of UU and the fasters than Dodrio can be fairly easily countered (namely Swellow, Ebuzz, Sneasel, Crobat) while Dodrio can't be. No Pokemon comes to close to having such momentum to your team than having Dodrio in. Now that Dodrio gets Life Orb it doesn't even need to master predict switch ins, Dodrio is basically allowed to try 10 times to predict right until it's worn out. What makes this an issue is that like stated in OP - nothing safely switches into Dodrio. Literally. Nothing. It's easy offensive ubers, pretty much the definition of it. It's not "unhealthy" making the tier stale by making some Pokemon centralizing, it's just flat out offensive ubers. The easiness of sweeping with Dodrio is just completely ridiculous. And what comes to Scarf: It really shouldn't come as a debate point since Dodrio can be scarfed as well. Sure, that eats the power of Dodrio a lot but when you're literally a passenger in every match you play against Dodrio and Dodrio is the driver....... it's not a fun metagame. RysPicz, gbwead, BlackJovi and 1 other 4 Link to comment
pachima Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 Impish armaldo says hi Also impish donphan And metang. DoubleJ and SirYurop 2 Link to comment
KaynineXL Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 16 minutes ago, pachima said: Impish armaldo says hi Also impish donphan And metang. Nice gimmicks OrangeManiac, xilias, Draekyn and 3 others 6 Link to comment
RysPicz Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 11 minutes ago, pachima said: Impish armaldo says hi Also impish donphan And metang. 252 Atk Choice Band Dodrio Drill Peck vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Armaldo: 67-79 (36.8 - 43.4%) -- 99.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery 252 Atk Choice Band Dodrio Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Donphan: 75-88 (38 - 44.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery 252 Atk Choice Band Dodrio Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Metang: 66-78 (39.5 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery None of pokes you listed has a reliable recovery either and thus can't switch on Dodrio multiple times. Needing to bring defensive versions of those 3 pokes into UU just to wall dodrio only shows how powerful and broken it is. Orb Dodrio works the similar but I'm too lazy to do the calcs now. If we could get rid of both Dodrio and Doom at the same time, it'd be so cool :v) Arimanius 1 Link to comment
pachima Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 While thats true the thing is, if you discover dodrio doesnt have life orb, it becames much easier to counter, if it has, you cant also forget that 10% damage each attack. Also both donphan and armaldo can knock off and somehow cripple the next pokemon. Dodrio is indeed op right now but still... DoubleJ 1 Link to comment
DoubleJ Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 (edited) Impish Donphan is really nice and also carries the added benefit of Rapid Spin. Just food for thought. EDIT: Essentially Impish Donphan w/ EQ, Rock Slide, Toxic, Rapid Spin is a great defensive wall as it can Toxic the predicted Slowking, Spin away spikes, and also counter the ever present Altaria. Vileplume and Exeggutor sit on its face though. Edited June 8, 2016 by DoubleJ SirYurop 1 Link to comment
gbwead Posted June 8, 2016 Author Share Posted June 8, 2016 (edited) 0 Atk Donphan Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dodrio: 88-104 (65.1 - 77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Impish Donphan doesn't even win against Dodrio. 1 hour ago, pachima said: While thats true the thing is, if you discover dodrio doesnt have life orb, it becames much easier to counter, if it has, you cant also forget that 10% damage each attack. Also both donphan and armaldo can knock off and somehow cripple the next pokemon. Dodrio is indeed op right now but still... I think you lose too much momentum with this strategy. Knocking Off a pokemon is not worth 40% of Donphan's health imo. Edited June 8, 2016 by lamerb Arimanius 1 Link to comment
DoubleJ Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 1 minute ago, lamerb said: 0 Atk Donphan Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dodrio: 88-104 (65.1 - 77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Impish Donphan doesn't even win against Dodrio. No Dodrio will willingly stay in against Donphan knowing this calc considering the risk of crit. Dodrio will only attack if Donphan has the damage for it to get the kill. Life Orb Dodrio cannot beat this Donphan, and CB Double-Edge runs the risk of death by recoil + Rock Slide. Against a full health Donphan, Dodrio needs to get lucky. 252 Atk Choice Band Dodrio Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Donphan: 87-103 (44.1 - 52.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery 0 Atk Donphan Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dodrio: 88-104 (65.1 - 77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252 Atk Life Orb Dodrio Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Donphan: 76-91 (38.5 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery 0 Atk Donphan Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dodrio: 88-104 (65.1 - 77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO ShadowGary 1 Link to comment
gbwead Posted June 8, 2016 Author Share Posted June 8, 2016 (edited) 3 minutes ago, DoubleJ said: No Dodrio will willingly stay in against Donphan knowing this calc considering the risk of crit. Dodrio will only attack if Donphan has the damage for it to get the kill. Life Orb Dodrio cannot beat this Donphan, and CB Double-Edge runs the risk of death by recoil + Rock Slide. Against a full health Donphan, Dodrio needs to get lucky. 252 Atk Choice Band Dodrio Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Donphan: 87-103 (44.1 - 52.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery 0 Atk Donphan Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dodrio: 88-104 (65.1 - 77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252 Atk Life Orb Dodrio Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Donphan: 76-91 (38.5 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery 0 Atk Donphan Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dodrio: 88-104 (65.1 - 77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Sure, Donphan can maybe work in some situations. However, it will lose consistently if it switches on CB Return Jolly Dodrio: 1 hour ago, RysPicz said: 252 Atk Choice Band Dodrio Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Donphan: 75-88 (38 - 44.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery Edited June 8, 2016 by lamerb ShadowGary, DoubleJ and Arimanius 3 Link to comment
Gunthug Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 19 minutes ago, DoubleJ said: No Dodrio will willingly stay in against Donphan knowing this calc considering the risk of crit. This is exactly the problem - with no recovery, dodrio is free to switch out and a donphan at 60% can no longer reliably come in on it. Though I do love impish donphan, it's often required to do a lot (namely, spin) and without recovery it's worn down pretty easily - something most teams with dodrio are aiming to do to dodrio's few shaky counters before it comes in and wreaks havoc Arimanius, gbwead, DoubleJ and 1 other 4 Link to comment
pachima Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 Just scarf any unsuspect mon and proceed to ohko that thing. Way easier than to find a really GOOD check because there isnt. Link to comment
RysPicz Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 7 minutes ago, pachima said: Just scarf any unsuspect mon and proceed to ohko that thing. Way easier than to find a really GOOD check because there isnt. This is overcentralization around dodrio and it isn't really worth searching for a check/ counter for a broken poke when it would be just easier and better to deliver it The Iron Boot of Gae Arimanius 1 Link to comment
gbwead Posted June 8, 2016 Author Share Posted June 8, 2016 (edited) 16 minutes ago, RysPicz said: This is overcentralization around dodrio and it isn't really worth searching for a check/ counter for a broken poke when it would be just easier and better to deliver it The Iron Boot of Gae Nah just play Corsola Recover. Hidden Power Grass doesn't 2HKO. The humiliation will make your opponent rage quit. ez. Edited June 8, 2016 by lamerb YettoDie and Arimanius 2 Link to comment
RysPicz Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 Just now, lamerb said: Nah just play Corsolar Recover. Hidden Power Grass doesn't 2HKO. The humiliation will make your opponent rage quit. ez.. Corsola? Nah. I found an ideal counter for Dodrio. 252 Atk Choice Band Dodrio Drill Peck vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Relicanth: 27-33 (13 - 15.9%) -- possibly the worst move ever 252 Atk Choice Band Dodrio Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Relicanth: 42-49 (20.2 - 23.6%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery 252 Atk Choice Band Dodrio Low Kick (40 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Relicanth: 38-46 (18.3 - 22.2%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery 0- SpA Life Orb Dodrio Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Relicanth: 114-140 (55 - 67.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery Let's be serious, HP grass isn't very common. Relicanth is solid. Dodrio isn't broken anymore, run Relicanth. gbwead, Dukee and Arimanius 3 Link to comment
BurntZebra Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 Spin defensive donphan is a gimmick as far as I'm concerned. It fails to spin vs any of the tier's spikers. Glalie and omastar pressure donphan way too much and the less seen cacturne beats donphan as well. It can't touch vileplume, which is essentially required on most teams to take on breloom, scizor, and other pokemon, while also checking sceptile. If donphan is going to be run, then it's a pretty clear choice to run a fast choice band set that 2hkos most of the meta bar claydol/breloom/exeggutor, two of which are pursuit trapped by houndoom. There are a few things that hold dodrio back to an extent. First, it is by no means fast enough to really sweep a team, as manectric, sneasel, sceptile crobat all outspeed and threaten dodrio, and the omnipresent tentacruel speed ties dodrio and typically scares off dodrio. Second, if you're not running manectric/sneasel/tentacruel on your team, you're most likely running a decent amount of defensive pokemon or slower attackers, such as slowking, scizor, kangaskhan, cradily, steelix, altaria, etc. All of these pokemon do two things. They 2hko dodrio (or ohko), so dodrio can't really safely switch in, and they are all capable of surviving a choice banded hit from dodrio as well, which really limits what dodrio can switch in on and actually scare out. Worst case scenario is that dodrio cleanly double switches in vs a pokemon that can't ohko dodrio, let's say vileplume. Assuming dodrio is choice banded, it's a pretty big guessing game at this point. Dodrio can either low kick, predicting the omastar or steelix, albeit only 4hko'ing omastar/3hko'ing defensive steelix, or it can go for the drill peck, which ohkos vileplume, but does a pathetic amount of damage to omastar and steelix. The risk of low kicking is hardly worth the reward in most cases. I guess there could be an argument that dodrio makes the tier centralize around normal resists, although the blame can't really be placed on dodrio itself. Zangoose, miltank, and kangaskhan all have a profound impact on the tier, and all make omastar/steelix/armaldo worth running, besides their ability to take on dodrio. Currently, I'm a bit undecided on dodrio. There's a lot of these hypothetical situations where dodrio magically has the perfect 4 moves for every team and double switches in multiple times a match and perfectly predicts every turn, but we all know that isn't the situation. Most likely, the dodrio player is going to end up sacking something to get dodrio in safely and then maybe it can get a kill with pursuit, before it's forced out by either a faster pokemon or a normal resist pokemon. On the other hand, the amount of pokemon that can take a dodrio drill peck or double edge is fairly limited, and it is probably the most powerful physical attacker in the tier currently, so it could potentially be suspect worthy. DoubleJ 1 Link to comment
RysPicz Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 See? Zeb is right. Dodrio is manageable. Run Relicanth. gbwead and Arimanius 2 Link to comment
pachima Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 21 minutes ago, RysPicz said: Corsola? Nah. I found an ideal counter for Dodrio. 252 Atk Choice Band Dodrio Drill Peck vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Relicanth: 27-33 (13 - 15.9%) -- possibly the worst move ever 252 Atk Choice Band Dodrio Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Relicanth: 42-49 (20.2 - 23.6%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery 252 Atk Choice Band Dodrio Low Kick (40 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Relicanth: 38-46 (18.3 - 22.2%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery 0- SpA Life Orb Dodrio Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Relicanth: 114-140 (55 - 67.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery Let's be serious, HP grass isn't very common. Relicanth is solid. Dodrio isn't broken anymore, run Relicanth. -1 252 Atk Life Orb Dodrio Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Granbull: 58-70 (29.5 - 35.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery This is a thing right?... RIGHT? Link to comment
pachima Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 -1 252 Atk Choice Band Dodrio Return vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mawile: 44-52 (28 - 33.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO And there goes another one. Link to comment
KaynineXL Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 Tis a job for magcargo I think not that serious. jk i am serious, burn him ehhh, not rly Arimanius, RysPicz, ShadowGary and 1 other 4 Link to comment
RysPicz Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 Swagcargo is legit too, I actually used it. It walls Houndoom too, swagcargo is sweg but I prefer relicanth, more solid gbwead and ShadowGary 2 Link to comment
ShadowGary Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 (edited) 22 minutes ago, pachima said: -1 252 Atk Choice Band Dodrio Return vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mawile: 44-52 (28 - 33.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO And there goes another one. You know it's stereotypical and pooped to think every Dodrio runs CB, right? Edited June 8, 2016 by ShadowGary wow "pooped" rly? Link to comment
pachima Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 15 minutes ago, ShadowGary said: You know it's stereotypical and pooped to think every Dodrio runs CB, right? I just choice banded cause its the maximum damage it can do against mawile (barring double edge which recoil hurts) With life orb the damage output is even lower. Link to comment
LifeStyle Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 (edited) Shuckle says hi. Torkoal is pretty lit too, can be used as rapid spinner Ig and it shits on dodrio Edited June 8, 2016 by LifeStyle SirYurop 1 Link to comment
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