[NU Discussion] Kingler - Remains NU

[Tyrone]

The Tier Council is currently debating whether Kingler fits the Offensive Uber characteristic. The combination of excellent Water/Normal/Fighting coverage, its 130 base attack stat, its decent 75 base speed, its respectable physical defense, and its Hyper Cutter ability, Kingler imposes itself as significant threat in the NU tier. Whether Kingler plays a SD + 3 attacks set, a CB set, or a Flail set, it can be very tricky to take out Kingler without losing a few pokemon in the process. Even Tangela, as the best counter to Kingler, has a high chance of losing against the Flail set. Using Jumpluff (Encore) is also a viable counter to stop Kingler.

 

Although the flail set has the best sweeping ability, there are several viable priority move users including Raichu, Flareon, Scyther, and Pinsir, which can prevent a flail Kingler from sweeping. We have some pokemon that can take advantage of the CB set such as Aggron, Misdreavus, Walrein, and Poliwrath, but there is always a risk and predict involved. It can also be tricky for the choice band set to play around protect users like Raichu, and Flareon.

 

One of the things that makes Kingler such a threatening pokemon is trying to guess what set it is running. The flail set can only be stopped by applying constant pressure, but that can be taken advantage by the choice band set. For example a Walrein could potentially stay in vs substitute flail kingler to prevent it from setting up, but it takes the risk of taking a choice band superpower which will quickly kill it. 

 

Shiftry is one of the few pokemon can reliably revenge kill Kingler due to its sizable physical bulk, meaning only special attackers have the best chance at revenge kills. Electrode and Electabuzz are currently the more viable special attackers that can outspeed kingler, as pokemon like Kadabra and Xatu fear Absol.

 

Main sets :

 

CB Kingler

Item : Choice Band

Ev : 252 atk | 252 speed

Nature : Adamant/Jolly

• Double-Edge
• Superpower
• Facade/Rock Tomb
• Crabhammer

Flail Kingler

Item : Salac Berry

Ev : 252 atk | 252 speed

Nature : Adamant

• Flail
• Crabhammer
• Substitute/Endure
• Sword Dance

SD Kingler

Item: Lum Berry/Leftovers

Ev : 252 atk | 252 speed

Nature : Adamant/Jolly

• Double-Edge
• Superpower
• Sword Dance
• Crabhammer

 

Some CB calcs:

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Kingler Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 85-100 (43.1 - 50.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252 Atk Choice Band Kingler Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 182+ Def Jumpluff: 100-118 (54.9 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252 Atk Choice Band Kingler Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangela: 74-88 (47.4 - 56.4%) -- 33.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Flail calc:

 

+2 252+ Atk Kingler Flail (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangela: 164-194 (95.3 - 112.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

 

For these reasons, the Tier Council want to discuss if Kingler meets the requirements of the offensive characteristic and if it should be banned to BL2. Feel free to add some calcs to strengthen your argumentation.

Please use this thread to discuss whether you believe Kingler should be moved up to BL2 or stay in NU.

 

Reminder: Posts must be on constructive and relevant to the discussion

[pachima]

I love how u always ban offensive mons, no wonder why 6 stall teams are everywhere.

 

edit: With quagsire and poliwrath around, kingler cant use its strongest move safely, double edge cant 2hko poli, and I have yet to calculate other physical walls, so stay in NU

Edited July 15, 2016 by pachima

[RysPicz]

WE DID IT FAM

Thanks TC, before I contribute I'd want to adress this

3 minutes ago, pachima said:

I love how u always ban offensive mons, no wonder why 6 stall teams are everywhere.

I'll tell you why 6 stall teams are everywhere. This is not because "we ban offensive mons". Stall was and always will be the most often used playstyle here, because it's safe. You can't allow yourself to experiment with a team in MMO because if experiment fails and your gimmick poke/ team loses, your funds and effort are going for nothing. If you lose, you're out of the bracket and we all know that tournaments in a certain tier are here like once a week. Sometimes twice. Not 20+ like it is on Showdown. We do not have enough space to practice and experiment.

 

Besides, if something is an offensive uber, it's an offensive uber and has to be banned regardless. This is about having a healthy metagame by using the means we have available. I'm a player who also enjoys playing offensively but I do not enjoy taking a Bello/ Tangela into every NU team I make just because of a fucking Krab running rampart and if I won't do it, Kingler will torn my party apart. I do not like having Poliwrath on every single of my teams because it's literally the only viable switch-in for Sharpedo which would do the same thing to my party as Kingler. And then there's Victreebel for which you got no viable switchin in NU (rekt).

 

First things first, let's focus on Krab.

[Tyrone]

Reminder: Posts must be on constructive and relevant to the discussion

 

I know there haven't been many discussions lately, so the rules might've faded a bit.

 

Why does Kingler need to go? Why should he stay?

 

 

Personally I think he should stay cause there are plenty of Grass types (Tangela / Bellosom / Jumpluff ) to stop him, alongside the popular physically defensive Poliwrath which will poison Kingler (stopping the endure-flail set completely). With the high popularity of Electrode / Electabuzz, revenge killing has become relatively easy. Kingler's usage isn't that large, so there are obvious drawbacks to using one in this metagame. An unprepared opponent will definitely be swept by Kingler, but the same could be told about Shiftry (SD LO set) and even Tropius (DD LO set).

[Torinnnnn]

ye, but if you guess the set wrong just ONCE thats basically GG, warranting a crit or something, its way to strong imo, 2 shots basically every switch in, and after SD it can basically sweep if trode and buzz are gone

Edited July 15, 2016 by Nobarsmcgee

[fredrichnietze]

i would like to add something constructive. a 60hp 252 attack 196 speed adamant scarf kingler outspeeds everything in nu except sneasle, trode, and ninjask. it has a attack stat of 200 if 31 iv and with a move pool of d edge, super, crabhammer, and flail it can be a very scary sweeper. a max speed jolly hits 209 which is 2 points behind max speed trode so whats the point? using d edge it can get to flail range pretty easily and just be generally scary. trode still outspeeds it, but nothing else does that can actually kill it. so if you are relying on buzz to stop trode or something fast, but not 180 speed fast, then you are in trouble.

252+ Atk Kingler Crabhammer vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Electabuzz: 132-156 (93.6 - 110.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
 

it ofc doesnt hit as hard as cb set, but this is viable imo. hits as hard as scarf hera. 

[BurntZebra]

A life orb mixed set has some merit as well, which easily 2hkos tangela with ice beam and ohkos the gimmick jumpluff set. Bellossom is less important since it takes a lot more from dedge. Poliwrath isn't a great answer to kingler sets outside of scarf sets. I'd guess the reason why we don't really see kingler sweeping much is that everyone runs poliwrath+a few fast sp atkers. Either kingler is scarf and is stopped by poliwrath, or its a swords dance/band set that is revenged by the select viable sp atkers in the tier. The fact that the most successful nu teams in the past month often carry poliwrath+bellossom and often with electrode, is a testament to the impact kingler has on the tier, whether or not kingler is offensive uber, is another question.

[DoubleJ]

Weren't Poli, Bell, and Trode always popular though?

 

Kingler in my opinion has been figured out. It's still tough as fuck though and can 3hko most of its counters, which is never a good thing. It has impeccable defense and great speed for a wallbreaker. I'm really on the fence but from a meta viewpoint it doesn't have the impact it used to. 

 

 

[KaynineXL]

22 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

Weren't Poli, Bell, and Trode always popular though?

 

Kingler in my opinion has been figured out. It's still tough as fuck though and can 3hko most of its counters, which is never a good thing. It has impeccable defense and great speed for a wallbreaker. I'm really on the fence but from a meta viewpoint it doesn't have the impact it used to. 

 

 

Couldn't agree more with this.

 

I'm surprised myself how so many talk about Kingler as if it's just so unbelievably broken, and it absolutely cannot stay, as if they're mind blown the TC hasn't banned this yet. But really, is it though? I mean, I'v never seen one do anything too special, sure if you're not prepared for it, it will rip through your team, but a lot of pokes can do that if they aren't prepared for.

 

I didn't really care to make a post previously though, because as you said, I am also on the fence because I'm not sure if I care if it goes or not. I would't mind making a team without using a bulky grass/water type occasionally which should probably be in every team with Kingler's threat around.

 

Edited July 16, 2016 by KaynineXL

[ShadowGary]

1 hour ago, KaynineXL said:

Couldn't agree more with this.

 

I'm surprised myself how so many talk about Kingler as if it's just so unbelievably broken, and it absolutely cannot stay, as if they're mind blown the TC hasn't banned this yet. But really, is it though? I mean, I'v never seen one do anything too special, sure if you're not prepared for it, it will rip through your team, but a lot of pokes can do that if they aren't prepared for.

 

I didn't really care to make a post previously though, because as you said, I am also on the fence because I'm not sure if I care if it goes or not. I would't mind making a team without using a bulky grass/water type occasionally which should probably be in every team with Kingler's threat around.

 

I mean it is broken to an extent since it can 3/2shot the whole tier. But I don't think it needs to be banned. I think it's just that people don't like to be forced to play a bulky grass/water wall like you said, cause of fearing for Kingler to shred through their teams if they don't, and that's where the problem lays imo. Agree with you and JJ, I disagree that it shouldn't be banned though. I liked playing NU cause it was a tier where you could be creative, now you're just destined to see Poliwrath/Solrock/Tangela everywhere cause of it.

 

In other words: Kingler takes variety away from teambuilding.

 

E: I know Poliwrath already was un/common, but don't shit me by telling me they were this common.

Edited July 16, 2016 by ShadowGary

[BurntZebra]

1 hour ago, DoubleJ said:

Weren't Poli, Bell, and Trode always popular though?

 

Kingler in my opinion has been figured out. It's still tough as fuck though and can 3hko most of its counters, which is never a good thing. It has impeccable defense and great speed for a wallbreaker. I'm really on the fence but from a meta viewpoint it doesn't have the impact it used to. 

 

 

Kingler has been around since the NU tier started again, so that isn't an entirely valid observation. Poliwrath wasn't horribly popular in the lapras meta since it was usually outclassed by other bulky waters and had issues with psychic toxic hypno+tbolt lapras being on all teams. Bellossom probably had more merit but it usually fell short as well since it wasn't as reliable vs pinsir as tangela was. So I don't really know you can really pinpoint kingler's impact on the meta, considering it's always been around since the life orb+choice items. Would poliwrath and bellossom still get a lot of usage? Potentially, since they're required for other pokemon like sharpedo, but running both might not be as essential anymore, as one is enough to not get overrun by water types usually. 

 

Is kingler the most banworthy pokemon in NU right now? I'd say probably not, since more pokemon have more realistic sweeping potential. Absol has fairly shaky answers and has the potential to screw up a lot of teams with either a scarf set, band set, or swords dance set. Victreebel is a fairly underused pokemon in NU still but also is quite powerful. Swords dance sets and sunny day sets both have a lot of potential and don't have too many overlapping counters. Sharpedo can pretty much 2hko the whole meta outside of poliwrath which it can 3hko with hp grass. 

[Thunderprime]

I feel like every pokes that hit hard are getting banned just because you need a wall only for each of them. I mean if you ban every powerhouse until its possible to wall the entire tier with one team the meta will suck even more. Its ok guys if your team has a weakness or 2 dont need to ban every sweeper just so everyone can bring a wall team. Every pokes has a counter but you cant counter every pokes in one team (for now...)

 

 

 

 

[ShadowGary]

47 minutes ago, Thunderprime said:

I feel like every pokes that hit hard are getting banned just because you need a wall only for each of them. I mean if you ban every powerhouse until its possible to wall the entire tier with one team the meta will suck even more. Its ok guys if your team has a weakness or 2 dont need to ban every sweeper just so everyone can bring a wall team. Every pokes has a counter but you cant counter every pokes in one team (for now...)

 

 

 

 

No, no, it's the fact that you HAVE to run a wall just for that one poke is what I don't like, takes away the diversity of the tier.

[Torinnnnn]

Honestly i think im gonna change my view on king, cuz i dont wanna see NU get to the point that UU were its basically teams of 5 walls and 1 sweeper. I do think its to strong for NU but i think it should stay cuz wall teams are bad

[FinnTheMember]

Kingler must stay at NU coz i like it. Kingler, Muk, Primeape, Fearow, Hitmonchan my favourites are all in Nu now. im happy. thats all. If u guys put charizard to NU ,im okay with that too.

[RysPicz]

21 minutes ago, FinnTheMember said:

Kingler must stay at NU coz i like it.

This is the best argument in this thread

[LifeStyle]

6 minutes ago, RysPicz said:

This is the best argument in this thread

Don't we all play Pokemon for fun? Why should we restrict things to "tiers", why can't we be free? #MakePokemonGreatAgain

#Metagross4NUCuzILikeIt

[Rendiz]

I like Zapdos

[LifeStyle]

5 minutes ago, Rendiz said:

I like Zapdos

but Zapdos is already NU, you pleb

[Tyrone]

Kingler won't be banned to BL2 right now.

So I'll be locking the thread for now, feel free to post in the NU Discussion Request thread if you disagree.