[OU Discussion] Snorlax [Test banned]

[KaynineXL]

Still remember the finals for Shiny Hera, Schuchty body slam para'd my CB Rhydon turn 2 and it parahaxed for like 2 turns while he spiked.

 

Was a sad sad day ;-; I still cri

[pachima]

17 hours ago, Aard said:

 

 

Also, for whoever is saying body slam should be banned because body slam is broken on Snorlax, that's not the solution.  There are plenty of ways to deal with body slam hax like the rest talk gyarados I run.  The problem is with the amount of things Snorlax can do.  It can setup, it can stall, it can pursuit trap, it can wipe away rhydon with surf.  There's no good way to deal with it unless you build a great portion of your team with Shorlax in mind.     

 

 

 

yeah, bslam paralyzes you, you dont attack, he does another bslam, u again dont attack, and he kills your gyara. Sry but still not a solution, and as I said in the earlier post, its out of your hands to beat that paralyze chance of lax.

[Rigamorty]

47 minutes ago, pachima said:

yeah, bslam paralyzes you, you dont attack, he does another bslam, u again dont attack, and he kills your gyara. Sry but still not a solution, and as I said in the earlier post, its out of your hands to beat that paralyze chance of lax.

lol. What's that like a 1/48 chance roughly? ban thunder wave. Chansey can just thunder wave, then it seismic tosses like 5 times in a row while you can't move so you lose, gg 

[pachima]

3 minutes ago, Rigamorty said:

lol. What's that like a 1/48 chance roughly? ban thunder wave. Chansey can just thunder wave, then it seismic tosses like 5 times in a row while you can't move so you lose, gg 

true, but u use twave with the intention to paralyze, the same shouldnt be applied for bslam.(at least as literal as twave)

[Senile]

I knew this day would come, but I didn't think it would come so soon.

 

So, I would perhaps give specific replies to people and delve into the Snorlax issue in general a bit more if I could be bothered, but honestly I'm just dumping my thoughts on "Complex ban Body Slam" because cmon really guys. (and in case it isn't obvious, yes, ofc I don't agree with that idea lol)

 

So, first thing about Body Slam, and the biggest talk I'm seeing to try and "justify" it's ban in particular is that it's somehow uncompetitive because of it's paralysis, which is in my opinion a huuuuge, massive stretch on both Body Slam and the definition of uncompetitive. But before that, I'd like to talk about why Body Slam is good at all, and why it's good on Snorlax in particular.

So, at first glance, Body Slam isn't too special in terms of power; In pure raw damage, Return outclasses it pretty far and Double-Edge exists if you want to deal silly amounts of damage regardless of recoil. The meat of the move is the 30% paralysis chance, which is incredibly significant. If you do the math, it means that if you hit 2 Body Slams, 51% of the time, one of those Body Slams would have paralyzed the enemy, and assuming your Snorlax gets off 2 or more Body Slams in a match isn't a stretch whatsoever. Not only is it exceptionally likely to paralyze targets, but it does/threatens to do enough damage that the opponent can't just switch into fragile pokemon willy-nilly, and has to switch into specific threats to scare away Snorlax. However, even pokemon like Skarmory and Rhydon who could come on Snorlax don't particularly enjoy getting paralyzed, even if they take little damage from the move itself.

 

In other words, Body Slam is a consistently winning bet, and this is also why the Thunder Wave comparisons I've been seeing are so ridiculously off-base. Not only does Thunder Wave have multiple simple switchins, but often time Thunder Wavers can't usually paralyze something that cares. If you run Twave on something like Jolteon(lol), how likely is it that you'll paralyze something other than a Snorlax who can rest it off or a Chansey who just doesn't care? Even if you do hit something else with a Twave, was paralyzing it actually better than hitting it with a STAB Thunderbolt? Probably not. Thunder Wave isn't Body Slam, in that it doesn't cover multiple options. Thunder Wave can't simultaneously cause serious damage and potentially paralyze squishier switchins, while also being able to paralyze and seriously cripple pokemon that don't care about the damage.

 

So, based on everything I said so far, it would seem like I'm in support of banning Body Slam, like wow this move is crazy gg unstoppable snorlax king of tyrants move aside tyranitar gg no re, but obviously this isn't the case, and it's not just because I'm Senile. At the end of the day, yes, Body Slam is really threatening, but only because Snorlax itself is perfect for it. Strong enough that Body Slam can do serious damage, bulky enough to switch in enough times to consistently get paras off, and forces in pokemon that not only don't enjoy paralysis, but struggle to deal with it. The lack of good Ghost types is what really exacerbates the issue, because it means that 99% of the time, Body Slam WILL connect, and by extension, will do SOMETHING. Paralyze, do severe damage, whatever it needs to do. Snorlax carries the fuck out of Body Slam, let's not get it twisted.

And then there's the argument that, since the paralysis is hooked to a 30% chance (and ofc yes paralysis has a constant 25% chance of just ending your career), that Body Slam is uncompetitive, and I think that's more than a little silly. This isn't SwagPlay where you can't do anything about it other than running like a Magic Bounce Espeon because SwagPlay consistently outspeeds your entire party and forces constant 50/50's weighted in their favor, it's just a move that can and will consistently paralyze you. At the end of the day, something I think people like to forget is that Pokemon is an RNG heavy game, and a HUGE skill factor that comes in the game is risk management, and dealing with Body Slam paras is a significant part of this. The chance to paralyze with Body Slam is too high to not account for it. Getting para'd by Body Slam isn't bad RNG, it's something you should be expecting and accounting for, because it's too likely to happen, it's happened a million times before and it'll happen a million times again. Paralyzing you a shit ton isn't proof that Body Slam is uncompetitive, it means you have to learn how to better deal with the risk management factor and account for the fact that yes, the move people are using specifically for paralysis is going to  consistently paralyze the fuck out of you, and you have to account for that.

But if it happens that it's too hard to account for that, that the paralysis is too difficult to account for along with everything else Snorlax does? Well that doesn't mean that the Paralysis itself is uncompetitive, it just means that Snorlax is too fucking good. 

If you want to complex ban to keep Snorlax in the metagame, do what you want, none of my business. But don't try to spin it like you're just removing an uncompetitive element from the game just because the existence of a % lets you say it's RNG, you're just removing one of Snorlax's greater options to limit it, making it much easier to account for all of it's tools, and by extension making it easier to deal with.

tl;dr: y'all triggering me 

Edited August 19, 2016 by Senile

[gbwead]

5 minutes ago, Senile said:

tl;dr: y'all triggering me 

My plan worked perfectly. We got Senile back and some greats arguments as to why Snorlax needs to be banned.

[Aard]

On 8/19/2016 at 11:51 AM, pachima said:

yeah, bslam paralyzes you, you dont attack, he does another bslam, u again dont attack, and he kills your gyara. Sry but still not a solution, and as I said in the earlier post, its out of your hands to beat that paralyze chance of lax.

You need to say what set you are talking about.  This isn't true of the standard Curselax.

 

-1 0 Atk Snorlax Body Slam vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gyarados: 57-67 (14.4 - 17%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

After one curse the 3hko still isn't true.

 

0 Atk Snorlax Body Slam vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gyarados: 84-99 (21.3 - 25.1%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

After two curses, which Snorlax should never be able to be able to get off, this would be like 5 parahax in a row at this point, the 3hko is only true 0.2% of the time.

 

+1 0 Atk Snorlax Body Slam vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gyarados: 126-148 (31.9 - 37.5%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Basically, you need to be paralyzed six times in a row for Snorlax to set up on Resttalk gyara and kill it with body slam. Sure, you can't control parahax, but 0.25^6 = 0.024% is the chance of paralysis making you unable to roar away Snorlax with this gyara set about two in ten thousand times.  There's a better chance Snorlax would crit 3 times in a row. 

 

Then there's choice band Snorlax, which your 3hko doesn't work with either.

252+ Atk Snorlax Body Slam vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gyarados: 114-135 (28.9 - 34.2%) -- 99.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery 

 

Choice band is more dangerous, but you know its banded at this point and should have a secondary answer for normal moves.

 

Are you forgetting to factor in intimidate or did you just not do any calculations?

 

By the way, I think Snorlax is broken, I just don't think it is at all because of body slam hax.

 

Also, if resttalk Gyarados became a popular thing in the tier, some Snorlax sets would eventually have thunderpunch on them just like some Snorlax sets have surf for Rhydon.  Resttalk Gyara only works so well right now because of its unpopularity.  This is a good example of how body slam hax have nothing to do with the problem but you think they do.  The problem is the diversity in Snorlax's movepool combined with its base stats.

 

That said, a core of Resttalk Gyarados, Rhydon, and a trick user will stop any Snorlax set if you figure out what it is.  If anyone has a more efficient combination then that would be interesting, but with this one I think that's asking a little much to be able to reliably stop one pokemon.

 

I think we should look at things Snorlax has trouble beating instead of arguing about this body slam ban. Its silly, and probably won't happen.

Things that Snorlax can have trouble with are Rhydon, Gyarados, Skarmory, Weezing, Machamp, Milotic,and Dusclops.  Are those answers enough to keep Snorlax from being uber? Most of those only really roar it away or get in a stall war with it.

Edited August 21, 2016 by Aard

[Risadex]

I tought MIlotic's ability plus haze was the answer to lax .. but after 7 FUCKING TURNS OF PARALYZE IN A ROW Idk what to think.

[RysPicz]

1 hour ago, Risadex said:

I tought MIlotic's ability plus haze was the answer to lax .. but after 7 FUCKING TURNS OF PARALYZE IN A ROW Idk what to think.

Well I do know what to think

I think Snorlax needs the iron boot of ghaey

[SirYurop]

rhydon can handle (if surf you got outplayed aka scouted)

Machamp is bulkier than hera (bulk up/knock off are nice options if switch out)

Omastar LB in rain 3hko and curse lax cant really touch it (def oma walls and can set up spikes but cant counter)

specs magne can 3hko and idun think fp would ko (sturdy??? Lmao)

trick users annoys...pair w a ghost since prolly lax gonna spam body slam fishing for paras

Cb users and almost all of them can learn spower/low kick/strong stab

there are more pokes who can wall it or phaze it ez but these are counters unless the trick/ghost

 

all tiers go over sum powerhouses or cores who everyone runs cuz they work good so usage its not a factor to ban

 

im a curselax hater but imo dont deserve ban sure its hard to handle but no impossible to beat unless it stacks 3 curses..in that case u deserve to lose

 

Cb hits harder (and not that bulky+no recovery) but is easiest to play around imo...mostly its used to pursuit trap fragile sp sweeper (starmie, kazam, jolt..)

[pachima]

28 minutes ago, SirYurop said:

rhydon can handle (if surf you got outplayed aka scouted)

Machamp is bulkier than hera (bulk up/knock off are nice options if switch out)

Omastar LB in rain 3hko and curse lax cant really touch it (def oma walls and can set up spikes but cant counter)

specs magne can 3hko and idun think fp would ko (sturdy??? Lmao)

trick users annoys...pair w a ghost since prolly lax gonna spam body slam fishing for paras

Cb users and almost all of them can learn spower/low kick/strong stab

there are more pokes who can wall it or phaze it ez but these are counters unless the trick/ghost

 

all tiers go over sum powerhouses or cores who everyone runs cuz they work good so usage its not a factor to ban

 

im a curselax hater but imo dont deserve ban sure its hard to handle but no impossible to beat unless it stacks 3 curses..in that case u deserve to lose

 

Cb hits harder (and not that bulky+no recovery) but is easiest to play around imo...mostly its used to pursuit trap fragile sp sweeper (starmie, kazam, jolt..)

if by any chance omastar and magneton become that common, eq destroys them with the advantage of dealing some damage to rhydon, without relying on surf predicitons. (Still surprised eq isnt used more ofen)

[XPLOZ]

47 minutes ago, SirYurop said:

rhydon can handle (if surf you got outplayed aka scouted)

Machamp is bulkier than hera (bulk up/knock off are nice options if switch out)

Omastar LB in rain 3hko and curse lax cant really touch it (def oma walls and can set up spikes but cant counter)

specs magne can 3hko and idun think fp would ko (sturdy??? Lmao)

trick users annoys...pair w a ghost since prolly lax gonna spam body slam fishing for paras

Cb users and almost all of them can learn spower/low kick/strong stab

there are more pokes who can wall it or phaze it ez but these are counters unless the trick/ghost

 

all tiers go over sum powerhouses or cores who everyone runs cuz they work good so usage its not a factor to ban

 

im a curselax hater but imo dont deserve ban sure its hard to handle but no impossible to beat unless it stacks 3 curses..in that case u deserve to lose

 

Cb hits harder (and not that bulky+no recovery) but is easiest to play around imo...mostly its used to pursuit trap fragile sp sweeper (starmie, kazam, jolt..)

Most of your counters are only checks.

 

Rhydon can take a surf, but also a EQ or a Superpower.

Omastar takes EQ or Superpower in his face.

Magneton takes EQ, Superpower or Firepunch in his face.

Machamp, even the bulkiest one, will not enjoy coming on a stab Body slam. He doesn't have any reliable recovery move and can be paralysed.

Trick users annoy, but don't come on lax. They are lures to lax, that's all. "Pair with a ghost", you mean Dusclops ? Yeah, but it highly limits team building.

Most of CB users can't come on Body slam. If they do, it is a situation of last resort.

 

[SirYurop]

Body slam eq curse rest is free switch for skarm

 

if cb who predicts better wins what aint unhealthy lol

 

Edit

scizor can come on a body slam/curse and ko w cb spower, same as rhydon if lax fireblast/punch/surf u got outplayed ez u cant cry for that

Haunter also free switch on bs eq lax and can trick disable etc even dbond

dont forget we can only have 4 moves and curse set takes 2 (curse/rest/sub) havent seen many yolo laxes w 3 attks

if cb its all prediction but weez w omas sound good right?

Edited August 27, 2016 by SirYurop

[XPLOZ]

There are other sets than Curse or CB.

A set with sub, a mixed set, a non-CB set with pursuit (to avoid being blocked on Pursuit)...

 

You need to check all of this with your YOLO checks, while Lax will have the time to bring 1-2 paras.

[ricardommo]

Snorlax Without Bodyslam is not a beast in my opinion 
already lost some duels bcos of the shitty Hax always bodyslam paralize e.e 

[OrangeManiac]

> see a Snorlax thread show up

> "okay fair enough, Snorlax is kinda a beast even now"

> see someone mention a complex ban on Body Slam Snorlax

> kek a little bit

> expect the discussion to return to normal

> see 6 pages of Body Slam complex ban discussion

> what the hell is going on

> see Senile's post

> "there's hope for this game"

Thanks Senile for basically explaining in the most detailed post why that makes zero sense but honestly guys, just think about it for a second. Does it make ANY sense to start to limit actual moves from a Pokemon just to try to desperately and hypothetically keep the metagame together? It honestly feels like you would allow a lobsided fight and just tell the stronger guy to not be able to use their uppercuts to be make the fight possibly more even. It just feels so forced and desperate to me. I hate to go all slippery slope but complex bans like this are a no no because things would get really fucking complicated when you would have to consider every move with every Pokemon and discuss all the possible variants of being able to ban single moves from Pokemon. "Hey let's allow Salamence, let's just not allow Dragon Claw? And Tyranitar, let's just not allow CB or DD for it?" And suddenly we would be in a complete mess because we could 'technically' discuss every possibility like this what comes to tiering discussion. And it just feels so... I mean, I can't be only one who feels that would be ridiculously forced? Honestly, drop the Body Slam discussion and I hope some kind of a confirmation would come that "Body Slam ban will not be in question" because this is getting out of hand.

[XPLOZ]

12 minutes ago, OrangeManiac said:

I hate to go all slippery slope but complex bans like this are a no no because things would get really fucking complicated when you would have to consider every move with every Pokemon and discuss all the possible variants of being able to ban single moves from Pokemon. "Hey let's allow Salamence, let's just not allow Dragon Claw? And Tyranitar, let's just not allow CB or DD for it?" And suddenly we would be in a complete mess because we could 'technically' discuss every possibility like this what comes to tiering discussion.

It seems that you saw the 6 pages of discussion but didn't read it deeply, because this argument has been said and anwsered like 10 times.

However I can understand it well because the line between removing the uncompetitiveness and the power of Lax is very thin. Indeed, when you remove his uncompetitiveness, you logically remove some of his power in the same process. The point was that removing his uncompetitiveness would have been the purpose of this complex ban, and not a result. Thereby, it isn't a choice between body slam or curse or firepunch or whatever, like it would be with choosing between DD or Crunch from Tyranitar.

 

Just wanted to make the reasoning (which isn't as dumb as some people think) clear.

 

 

Anyway, it seems that the idea has already been rejected. Lots of people don't agree with this, which isn't really surprising.

[codylramey]

I havent been in the game in FOREVER. But i am curious do you guys feel like you need snorlax in the meta in order to keep it balanced/avoid an avalanche of bans? (Btw avoiding a avalanche of bans isnt a reason to keep a pokemon in a tier i was just curious about this one)

[Gunthug]

12 minutes ago, codylramey said:

I havent been in the game in FOREVER. But i am curious do you guys feel like you need snorlax in the meta in order to keep it balanced/avoid an avalanche of bans? (Btw avoiding a avalanche of bans isnt a reason to keep a pokemon in a tier i was just curious about this one)

No, banning lax likely wouldn't lead to a ban cascade, and I don't think it would suddenly make OU any less balanced than it already is. It would just lead to higher chansey usage, which wouldn't necessarily make chansey banworthy by default 

[Moetal]

Alright you boys had your fun. Can we get to the actual banning part yet?

[pachima]

Like XPLOZ said once, half OU battles are decided by body slam para. 

Seems pretty much the definition of unhealthy and uncompetitive for this metagame. Ban!

[DarylDixon]

lf gengar OU pls

[codylramey]

If snorlax is a problem, and he was b4 i left imo, and you dont need him in the meta, which ive seen the meta w/o lax it wasnt bad, then ban him. No need to discuss a complex ban.

[ricardommo]

just ban him and done... he is more than OU everyone have 1 omg...  

thanks cya

SNORLAX IS CANCER, EVERYONE HATES THAT FAT POKE.. CYA GUYS 

[BlackJovi]

2 minutes ago, ricardommo said:

just ban him and done... he is more than OU everyone have 1 omg...  

thanks cya

SNORLAX IS CANCER, EVERYONE HATES THAT FAT POKE.. CYA GUYS 

lol