[NU Discussion] Victreebel

[Tyrone]

 

NU can often be viewed as a pressure cooker overcome by offensive threats. Victreebel is clearly one of those, but unlike others it imposes itself as a very defining and unforgiving element of the tier. Victreebel typing, unprecendented coverage and versatility are really what sets it apart.

 

Its typing allows it to switch with ease on various prominent NU pokemons like Poliwrath, Bellosom and Raichu. The unprecedented coverage from 2 most common Victreebel sets –  the Sunny Day set (Solar Beam, Sludge Bomb and Weartherball) and the SD set (Return, Leaf Blade, Sludge Bomb) – allows Victreebel to win any match up after a set up turn. Torkoal, Hitmontop, Flareon, Mawile and others can be small nuisance to Victreebel depending on the set it runs, but ultimately they usually don’t stop Victreebel throughout an entire duel. Considering Victreebel’s movesets can be slightly modified (Synthesis and Giga Drain) to improve its longevity, Victreebel can wait for the right time (Sludge Bomb poison proc) to deal with the listed nuisances.

 

What hinders Victreebel are its paper defenses and requirement to set up. So theoretically it may seem Victreebel is too strong, but in practice this may not be the case as it has weaknesses that aren't always taken into account.

 

It seems NU doesn’t have to right tools to handle Victreebel which is why the TC is suspecting this threat to fit Offensive Uber characteristics. The TC would like to know how NU players deal with Victreebel when they face one.

[OrangeManiac]

Victreebel does have 'some' checks considering which one of the two sets it is running. Sunny Day Vic is checked by Cloud Nine Golduck, Mantine, Flareon, Bulky Xatu (which all are very shaky) while fast sweepers sweep physical set quite effortlessly. The problem is that number of checks already isn't exactly great but the worst thing is that none of those checks are reliable before you know which one you're facing and at the same time trying to scout the moveset is incredibly risky because of the sheer force Vic has with over 100 attacks and powerful STABs. I think the worst part of Vic is that even when you do nothing wrong against it, use effort to particularly counter that very Pokemon you can still be swept by it very often. It almost makes you feel hopeless in terms of NU teambuilding. I feel that Victreebel does fall into Offensive Uber Characteristics.

[KaynineXL]

16 minutes ago, OrangeManiac said:

Victreebel does have 'some' checks considering which one of the two sets it is running. Sunny Day Vic is checked by Cloud Nine Golduck, Mantine, Flareon, Bulky Xatu (which all are very shaky) while fast sweepers sweep physical set quite effortlessly. The problem is that number of checks already isn't exactly great but the worst thing is that none of those checks are reliable before you know which one you're facing and at the same time trying to scout the moveset is incredibly risky because of the sheer force Vic has with over 100 attacks and powerful STABs. I think the worst part of Vic is that even when you do nothing wrong against it, use effort to particularly counter that very Pokemon you can still be swept by it very often. It almost makes you feel hopeless in terms of NU teambuilding. I feel that Victreebel does fall into Offensive Uber Characteristics.

You also forgot Kecleon & Muk which should be mentioned as great checks/counters to all special attacking variants.

 

The SD set can be a problem for the usual checks/counters that handle the special side, but it's just another Pokemon that requires some prediction(just like all the other powerhouses in this offensive meta) and it shouldn't be sweeping too easily with the poor speed.

 

Torkoal isn't bad either, I mean I'm too lazy to do the calcs, but can't that thing wall all sets almost(although sbomb would sting on orb/specs)? It's also fairly common these days.

 

I didn't think Victree was ban worthy before Absol went up, and I definitely don't think so now, none of the psychics handle it perfectly, but many of them offer revenge... and allowing something like a specs Kadabra to come in on revenge is something I feel can punish teams hard now.

 

Edited November 6, 2016 by KaynineXL
Typos. stahp.

[OrangeManiac]

7 minutes ago, KaynineXL said:

You also forgot Kecleon & Muk which should be mentioned as great checks/counters to all special attacking variants.

 

The SD set can be a problem for the usual checks/counters that handle the special side, but it's just another Pokemon that requires some prediction(just like all the other powerhouses in this offensive meta) and it shouldn't be sweeping too easily with the poor speed.

 

Torkoal isn't bad either, I mean I'm too lazy to do the calcs, but can't that thing wall all sets almost(although sbomb would sting on orb/specs)? It's also fairly common these days.

 

I didn't think Victree was ban worthy before Absol went up, and I definitely don't think so now, none of the Psychics handle it perfectly, but many of them offer revenge... and allowing something like a specs Kadabra to come in on revenge is something I feel can punish teams hard now.

 

Torkoal is a veeery shaky check. Muk is fine though, I completely forgot about that Pokemon. Probably the only Pokemon that could have a "counter" status as the only way to beat it is like SDing on the switch and Returning on Muk. Kecleon takes massive damage from Orb Leaf Blade and on special sweeping set is only stopped by Kecleon if Victreebel does not hit a Grass-move on the switch.

 

252+ SpA Life Orb Victreebel Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Torkoal: 121-144 (68.3 - 81.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252 Atk Life Orb Victreebel Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Kecleon: 219-258 (67.5 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

[KaynineXL]

19 minutes ago, OrangeManiac said:

Torkoal is a veeery shaky check. Muk is fine though, I completely forgot about that Pokemon. Probably the only Pokemon that could have a "counter" status as the only way to beat it is like SDing on the switch and Returning on Muk. Kecleon takes massive damage from Orb Leaf Blade and on special sweeping set is only stopped by Kecleon if Victreebel does not hit a Grass-move on the switch.

 

252+ SpA Life Orb Victreebel Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Torkoal: 121-144 (68.3 - 81.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252 Atk Life Orb Victreebel Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Kecleon: 219-258 (67.5 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

I think Kecleon lives grass + sbomb just about and can then twave and heal up. My memory is quite vague, but I'm pretty sure I checked it before.

 

Once Kecleon takes that leaf blade, can it twave the victree considering it's then a grass type? Granted if the Victree went +2 on the switch, that would be nasty, also the crit chance should be considered. Kecleon isn't great for the physical set anyway.

 

Torkoal is good for the physical set I think and can steal the sunny day from sunny day victrees + can come in on giga orb/specs set if you predict right.

Edited November 6, 2016 by KaynineXL

[Hotarubi]

Being both so squishy and incredibly impaired by any para this poke seems to me to be semi easily countered.

If it is a sunny day sweeper its fast but you put some twave down or wait out sun turns and your good.

The only threat a special sweeper version can pose is that weather ball and solar beam.

Often times its just too squishy to be overpowering.

[Gazelli]

On 11/6/2016 at 5:07 PM, KaynineXL said:

I think Kecleon lives grass + sbomb just about and can then twave and heal up. My memory is quite vague, but I'm pretty sure I checked it before.

2

All victree needs is 5-10% prior damage on kec and giga + sbomb will kill. Even if 1 spike is up, a full health kec cant handle a special varient victree.

 

On 11/6/2016 at 5:07 PM, KaynineXL said:

Once Kecleon takes that leaf blade, can it twave the victree considering it's then a grass type? Granted if the Victree went +2 on the switch, that would be nasty, also the crit chance should be considered. Kecleon isn't great for the physical set anyway.

3

Are you assuming a victree with 252 att cant knock out a kecleon with return after a leaf blade? I mean hell even without life orb (most victrees run +att with life orb) return will kill after. by the time you figure out its an sd set it may already be too late. you have kecleon and torkoal, which wall do you turn to when faced with a victree? its a 50 50. Go kec and u could eat a leaf blade that will get rid of ur special wall, allowing for other special attackers to plow through. sd sets tend to carry sbomb anyway, which deals significant damage to torkoal, and has a chance to poison.

 

On 11/6/2016 at 5:07 PM, KaynineXL said:

Torkoal is good for the physical set I think and can steal the sunny day from sunny day victrees + can come in on giga orb/specs set if you predict right.

2

Sbomb is such a spammable move I dont think that theory works in practice at all. 

 

Spoiler

Ban victree.

 

 

[Kizhaz]

With absol gone wouldn't the psychic's see play again, keeping Victree in check?

[KaynineXL]

8 minutes ago, Gazelli said:

All victree needs is 5-10% prior damage on kec and giga + sbomb will kill. Even if 1 spike is up, a full health kec cant handle a special varient victree.

 

Are you assuming a victree with 252 att cant knock out a kecleon with return after a leaf blade? I mean hell even without life orb (most victrees run +att with life orb) return will kill after. by the time you figure out its an sd set it may already be too late. you have kecleon and torkoal, which wall do you turn to when faced with a victree? its a 50 50. Go kec and u could eat a leaf blade that will get rid of ur special wall, allowing for other special attackers to plow through. sd sets tend to carry sbomb anyway, which deals significant damage to torkoal, and has a chance to poison.

 

Sbomb is such a spammable move I dont think that theory works in practice at all. 

 

  Hide contents

Ban victree.

 

 

It is true, the Kecleon needs to be healthy to take a Giga + Sbomb, but that combo is easily predicted as well, so you can make a play off it. Another thing is, there are many other Pokemon who are exactly like that, Kingler is another example, the CB set can rape its common switches(Tangela) with just 1 spike I believe? Sure there's Jumpluff, but that's never used right now anyway.

 

Yeh, you're right, if return is in the set, Kecleon will definitely lose. 

 

0 SpA Life Orb Victreebel Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Torkoal: 88-105 (49.7 - 59.3%) -- 73.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

That damage seems way more than I expected, but even so, you're very likely to come in on a physical move once you scout the set, not to mention a lot of Torkoal use protect which will make sure you don't get OHKO'd unless poison.

 

Victree is still very slow, we've got a bunch more psychics that are way more popular now and overall, NU is a very offensive tier. It's really amazing against wall teams provided you have the right set against their team, I admit, but against offensive stuff? I don't think so.

[Gazelli]

5 minutes ago, KaynineXL said:

It is true, the Kecleon needs to be healthy to take a Giga + Sbomb, but that combo is easily predicted as well, so you can make a play off it. Another thing is, there are many other Pokemon who are exactly like that, Kingler is another example, the CB set can rape its common switches(Tangela) with just 1 spike I believe? Sure there's Jumpluff, but that's never used right now anyway.

 

Yeh, you're right, if return is in the set, Kecleon will definitely lose. 

 

0 SpA Life Orb Victreebel Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Torkoal: 88-105 (49.7 - 59.3%) -- 73.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

That damage seems way more than I expected, but even so, you're very likely to come in on a physical move once you scout the set, not to mention a lot of Torkoal use protect which will make sure you don't get OHKO'd unless poison.

 

Victree is still very slow, we've got a bunch more psychics that are way more popular now and overall, NU is a very offensive tier. It's really amazing against wall teams provided you have the right set against their team, I admit, but against offensive stuff? I don't think so.

 

Ur right in terms of the kingler example, but the prob with victree is that it switches into walls way to easily, and unlike kingler and many other offensive threats, has instant recovery. as mentioned before, poliwrath, raichu, hitmontop, solrock, are all switchins for victree. even if they have a super effective move against for vict, the damage can easily be recovered. I am not against a more offensive tier, but victree simply has no real switch in. everytime someone uses it, it is bound to cause damage if used right. also, once the person using vict knows you have a torkoal, its much easier to predict. after all, the one using the walls will always be the one being outplayed since one misplay could cost them a wall, and then lead to their team being dismantled. With absol being banned, maybe victree will be less viable with more xatus, pigs, and kadabras around. might have to wait a bit and see.

[BlackJovi]

Vic doesn't need ban, let it go guys. Once the set is scouted it can't do much, unless your team is wally then it will definitely break you because it is indeed a wall breaker.. 

 

TL:DR I wanna use my shiny one no ban plz 

[DoubleJ]

Amazing wallbreaker, mostly handled by Muk, but lacks the speed to sweep up. Sunny Day is scary late game if you sack your counter, but easier to counter. Always have to be on edge though. 

 

Keep it imo.

 

 

[Liberalisme]

21 hours ago, DoubleJ said:

Amazing wallbreaker, mostly handled by Muk, but lacks the speed to sweep up. Sunny Day is scary late game if you sack your counter, but easier to counter. Always have to be on edge though. 

 

Keep it imo.

 

 

I don't really agree with this part, yes it is a bit slow, but it still is able to outspeed every defensive pokemon in the NU tier. Victreebell can set up on a lot of the commonly used walls. And besides Muk and maybe Kecleon (depends on set Victreebell) Victreebell is able to beat the other walls without trouble. The fact Victreebell has atleast 3 viable sets it can run, makes it hard to counter. It's too unpredictable and the current walls just struggle beating it.

[DoubleJ]

45 minutes ago, Liberalisme said:

I don't really agree with this part, yes it is a bit slow, but it still is able to outspeed every defensive pokemon in the NU tier. Victreebell can set up on a lot of the commonly used walls. And besides Muk and maybe Kecleon (depends on set Victreebell) Victreebell is able to beat the other walls without trouble. The fact Victreebell has atleast 3 viable sets it can run, makes it hard to counter. It's too unpredictable and the current walls just struggle beating it.

Makes sense that a full wall team is broken and possibly swept by Vic though doesn't it? 

[BlackJovi]

47 minutes ago, Liberalisme said:

I don't really agree with this part, yes it is a bit slow, but it still is able to outspeed every defensive pokemon in the NU tier. Victreebell can set up on a lot of the commonly used walls. And besides Muk and maybe Kecleon (depends on set Victreebell) Victreebell is able to beat the other walls without trouble. The fact Victreebell has atleast 3 viable sets it can run, makes it hard to counter. It's too unpredictable and the current walls just struggle beating it.

Solution to this: Run something faster than victrebel

[Liberalisme]

38 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

Makes sense that a full wall team is broken and possibly swept by Vic though doesn't it? 

 

37 minutes ago, BlackJovi said:

Solution to this: Run something faster than victrebel

How is that a legit arguement?

 

A wallbreaker is there to break walls and not killing sweepers. If a Victreebell can win vs any wall, then it's broken and imo should be banned.

 

If we look at Rhydon back in the days when it was UU, I know the tier isn't the same as NU but also Rhydon had that offensive power to break through walls but also could be revenge-killed. It's just that Victreebell breaks those walls too easily.

Edited November 18, 2016 by Liberalisme

[BlackJovi]

Just now, Liberalisme said:

 

How is that a legit arguement?

 

A wallbreaker is there to break walls and not killing sweepers. If a Victreebell can win vs any wall, then it's broken and imo should be banned.

 

If we look at Rhydon back in the days when it was UU, I know the tier isn't the same as NU but also Rhydon had that offensive power to break through walls but also could be revenge-killed. It's just that Victreebell breaks those walls too easily.

Nah, depending on set, victre has a solid counter. If its special, muk walls it. If its physical, torkoal walls it, Idk what ur trying to achieve here. You can also predict vs it, it's not like it comes in and kills something every time unless you are fkin weak to grass on every pokemon

[Liberalisme]

1 minute ago, BlackJovi said:

Nah, depending on set, victre has a solid counter. If its special, muk walls it. If its physical, torkoal walls it, Idk what ur trying to achieve here. You can also predict vs it, it's not like it comes in and kills something every time unless you are fkin weak to grass on every pokemon

It's just that saying faster pokemon can revenge-kill it isn't a valid arguement for not banning it.

 

 

[BlackJovi]

Just now, Liberalisme said:

It's just that saying faster pokemon can revenge-kill it isn't a valid arguement for not banning it.

 

 

Saying that it breaks every wall is not a valid argument either, as it is not true. You are complaining about something that is false and even like that I gave you a solution but you say it's invalid too. 

[Liberalisme]

1 minute ago, BlackJovi said:

Saying that it breaks every wall is not a valid argument either, as it is not true. You are complaining about something that is false and even like that I gave you a solution but you say it's invalid too. 

Well I never said that there are 0 counters to it, it depends on the moveset it runs.

[KaynineXL]

Just because a mon can break all walls(using multiple sets, should I add) doesn't mean it deserves to be banned. It depends on how easily it breaks these walls.

 

The good thing about Victree, it has a lot of chances to come in on a lot of the common NU pokes, and it has giga drain to heal it back up once it gets worn down. Other than that, it has pretty much the same wall breaking potential as say.. Pinsir, Piloswine, Granbul. Difference is, Victree can punish something before showing its sets, but the others I think can punish harder while their sets are usually obvious.

 

Some factors that come to my mind when banning something like Victree:

How easily it breaks walls. - It doesn't really break walls that easily, if I'm honest. If you've got the right set for their switch in, it's great. The set of the Victree is key.

Can it sweep? - It has some sweep potential with the sunny day set, although most special walls can wall it. Other sets could sweep against wall teams, but other than that, it really shouldn't be sweeping unless the you've killed the opponents fast pokemon.

How easily is it revenged? - It's fairly easy to revenge/force out due to speed.

How easy can it come in? - One of the good things it has going for it. It can come in on a bunch of common mons in NU such as Tangela, Roselia, Poliwrath and more that I can't think of on the top of the head.

 

 

TL/DR: Just because it can break all walls(it can't break them all with 1 set), doesn't mean it deserves to be banned.

Edited November 18, 2016 by KaynineXL

[Thunderprime]

TL/DR: it cant break every walls with 1 set. Not banworthy imo. Just because a pokemon can have 2+ destructive set doesnt make it OP, it still has paper defenses. If you fail at sending the right counter then sry bro better luck next time, aint predictions the fun part about duels?

[gbwead]

So does anyone feel differently about Victreebel? It got a nice spdef boost in the recent update and seems to still dominate the NU meta regardless of the numerous checks and counters that have been mentionned in this thread.

[pachima]

Well, probably the most scary vic set is sd, since it can wallbreak decently, but with 70 base speed and with life ball recoil, it wont reach far. For sunny day sets, which eliminate the speed issue, while just temporary, muk mostly and swalot wall it completely (I doubt even hp ground sets can 1v1 it)

Without these poison walls, 5 turns rly limits victreebel´s sweeping potential and is not hard to work around it at all (protect, cloud nine, ...)

Finally, in a tier with 90% toxic usage, bell is undoubtedly a nice pokemon to have and to prepare against, but in the end of the day, lacks something to be considered op.

 

[gbwead]

2 minutes ago, pachima said:

Well, probably the most scary vic set is sd, since it can wallbreak decently, but with 70 base speed and with life ball recoil, it wont reach far. For sunny day sets, which eliminate the speed issue, while just temporary, muk mostly and swalot wall it completely (I doubt even hp ground sets can 1v1 it)

Without these poison walls, 5 turns rly limits victreebel´s sweeping potential and is not hard to work around it at all (protect, cloud nine, ...)

Finally, in a tier with 90% toxic usage, bell is undoubtedly a nice pokemon to have and to prepare against, but in the end of the day, lacks something to be considered op.

 

I agree that Victreebel is not an unstoppable wallbreaker/sweeper, but the teambuilding and prediction difficulty required to prevent Victreebel from wallbreaking/sweeping is at a such high level that I wonder if Victreebel could be seen as overwhelmingly centralising and therefore unhealthy.