Munya Posted June 18, 2017 Share Posted June 18, 2017 This is likely my fault, something was started on but was never compiled/finalized into a post. RysPicz 1 Link to comment
Gunthug Posted June 18, 2017 Share Posted June 18, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, RysPicz said: This Been almost 3 weeks, top kek. @Gunthug tagging you cuz you're good at writing, write us some good poem reasoning stuff :> Lol I did like 2 weeks and 6 days ago E: not a poem though that woulda been awesome Edited June 18, 2017 by Gunthug RysPicz and gbwead 2 Link to comment
Munya Posted June 18, 2017 Share Posted June 18, 2017 Thanks to Gunt, who did the bulk of the writing and Rachel who did all of the editing, you can now find a run down on the Chansey test in this thread. Rache, RysPicz, Bilburt and 1 other 4 Link to comment
OrangeManiac Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 (edited) Thanks for the ban post. There's a couple of things I want to address, though. Quote Metagross Flygon Venusaur Forretress Starmie Skarmory Gyarados Weezing Heracross Milotic All of these Pokemon can be, and often are, tailored to take advantage of Chansey's presence. Metagross, Flygon, Gyarados, and Heracross can muscle past it on the physical side. Venusaur, Forretress, and Skarmory can often set up on it. Weezing and Milotic synergize well with Chansey as some of its most common partners, forming a very solid physical/special defensive core. Flygon and Gyarados are far from being the best Pokemon to deal with Chansey and its buddies. They are very unreliable wallbreakers and often used only to sweep late game. Breaking Chansey + Milotic/Weezing is pretty much an impossible task to said Pokemon. Getting high usage for Pokemon like Blaziken, Medicham (and listed Heracross) are much better examples of Chansey's defensive centralization in this way than Gyarados and Flygon and they are the truest Chansey counters as far as I'm concerned. Metagross is and will be forever to be used because it's a threat on its own. Amazing typing and the only Pokemon reaching 600 BST, which is miles beyond everybody else. I'm having very tough time drawing parallels between's Metagross' high usage and Chansey being reason for that. If there's anything that is a clear demonstration of Chansey's overwhelming presence, it's Venusaur. People starting to use one of the only Pokemon that does not give many fucks about this special wall shows in my opinion the clearest centralization around this blob. It shows that the demand of special attackers with capability to beat Chansey is massive. Heck, the reason why I started to use Xatu before was that it was a special sweeper that defeated Chansey. When every Pokemon that is a special attacker but doesn't have any weird trick (pun semi-intended) to beat Chansey is completely unviable, the metagame is going to be narrow. In my opinion the only usage based parallels that are solely because of Chansey are Venusaur and defensive walls like Weezing/Milotic/Skarmory to counter the physical threats against Chansey. But are they after all? Venusaur is like I addressed but I'm very unsure about making that claim about the defensive walls. I'd really like to get usage back this up eventually from post-ban but these three physical walls are used because, well.. people love physical walls and spikers. They just also happen to support Chansey a lot. What I'm saying that if (or 'when') the usage for said Pokemon is almost the same as it was before the ban, then we cannot make the claim that they were used because Chansey. They are all individually very nice Pokemon serving a very needed purpose but also happen to support Chansey and oh boy they do it well. So when you make the claim that these are used due to Chansey, you're basically trapping yourself with this argument if the usage of the physical walls won't go notably down. Quote Chansey's usage is around 40% higher overall than the next special wall, Umbreon, which finds itself on approximately 12% of OU teams. This means that players are unlikely to encounter a different choice of special wall on more than 1/8 teams. So what makes Chansey so splashable? It has the special bulk to completely shrug off special attackers, high enough base HP to soak up most non-super effective physical attacks, and healing options to not only keep itself healthy, but support its team as well. It often runs Protect for scouting choice locked moves, and has a fantastic ability in Natural Cure that allows it to absorb status ailments for its teammates without suffering after it switches out again. The combination of these notable traits and many more makes it difficult for players not to choose Chansey when they start building a team. - Special bulk to shrug off special attackers - High enough base HP to soak up most non-super effective physical attackers - Wish support - Protect to scout for Choice locked moves. - Natural Cure If you remove the "Natural cure part", you could be just explaining Umbreon at this point. There are a couple of special attackers than can plow through Umbreon, such as Specs Eruption Typhlosion and Rain Dance Hydro Pump Kingdra. Other than that Umbreon can fill all the requirements and Heal Bell kinda fills in for lack of Natural Cure. I am aware what made Chansey better as a special wall and it was mostly because setting up on Chansey was harder than Umbreon. Chansey's Seismic Toss was able to break Substitutes of anything that didn't have a base HP of over 100. In addition Chansey's Thunder Wave stopped many setting up machines. Umbreon is just kinda awkwardly standing there when opponent is setting up and requires a switch if opponent runs a Substitute. However, what I'm asking that if these following things describe something unhealthy, what makes Umbreon fine? Quote If any special attackers turn out to be too overwhelming during this period, they may also be added to the ban list and the duration of the test extended. This is a very good decision to optionally add more Pokemon to the test-ban list. I was kind of afraid of Alakazam but Umbreon and Houndoom have been keeping it in check. Specs Typhlosion also haven't got the usage it should through its insane raw power but we'll see. Edit: I would also like to point out that the metagame without Chansey is way more fun. No, really. You can use multiple different types of teambuilds since so many special attackers and weaker physical attackers are viable now. The only downside is that you often leave yourself vulnerable to something with less defensive Pokemon. But hey, it's Pokemon. It's very matchup based game. If there's anything to really say about Chansey ban in general is that it has opened tons of options for other Pokemon to be used and that's great. I would personally use that as an argument that the metagame is healthier and just leave it at that but again that's just me. I just don't entirely agree with the reasoning of the post making Chansey in some way banworthy. Edited June 19, 2017 by OrangeManiac Maelstrom, WestTurtle and BudsBender 3 Link to comment
Gunthug Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 3 hours ago, OrangeManiac said: Thanks for the ban post. There's a couple of things I want to address, though. Flygon and Gyarados are far from being the best Pokemon to deal with Chansey and its buddies. They are very unreliable wallbreakers and often used only to sweep late game. Breaking Chansey + Milotic/Weezing is pretty much an impossible task to said Pokemon. Getting high usage for Pokemon like Blaziken, Medicham (and listed Heracross) are much better examples of Chansey's defensive centralization in this way than Gyarados and Flygon and they are the truest Chansey counters as far as I'm concerned. Metagross is and will be forever to be used because it's a threat on its own. Amazing typing and the only Pokemon reaching 600 BST, which is miles beyond everybody else. I'm having very tough time drawing parallels between's Metagross' high usage and Chansey being reason for that. If there's anything that is a clear demonstration of Chansey's overwhelming presence, it's Venusaur. People starting to use one of the only Pokemon that does not give many fucks about this special wall shows in my opinion the clearest centralization around this blob. It shows that the demand of special attackers with capability to beat Chansey is massive. Heck, the reason why I started to use Xatu before was that it was a special sweeper that defeated Chansey. When every Pokemon that is a special attacker but doesn't have any weird trick (pun semi-intended) to beat Chansey is completely unviable, the metagame is going to be narrow. In my opinion the only usage based parallels that are solely because of Chansey are Venusaur and defensive walls like Weezing/Milotic/Skarmory to counter the physical threats against Chansey. But are they after all? Venusaur is like I addressed but I'm very unsure about making that claim about the defensive walls. I'd really like to get usage back this up eventually from post-ban but these three physical walls are used because, well.. people love physical walls and spikers. They just also happen to support Chansey a lot. What I'm saying that if (or 'when') the usage for said Pokemon is almost the same as it was before the ban, then we cannot make the claim that they were used because Chansey. They are all individually very nice Pokemon serving a very needed purpose but also happen to support Chansey and oh boy they do it well. So when you make the claim that these are used due to Chansey, you're basically trapping yourself with this argument if the usage of the physical walls won't go notably down. - Special bulk to shrug off special attackers - High enough base HP to soak up most non-super effective physical attackers - Wish support - Protect to scout for Choice locked moves. - Natural Cure If you remove the "Natural cure part", you could be just explaining Umbreon at this point. There are a couple of special attackers than can plow through Umbreon, such as Specs Eruption Typhlosion and Rain Dance Hydro Pump Kingdra. Other than that Umbreon can fill all the requirements and Heal Bell kinda fills in for lack of Natural Cure. I am aware what made Chansey better as a special wall and it was mostly because setting up on Chansey was harder than Umbreon. Chansey's Seismic Toss was able to break Substitutes of anything that didn't have a base HP of over 100. In addition Chansey's Thunder Wave stopped many setting up machines. Umbreon is just kinda awkwardly standing there when opponent is setting up and requires a switch if opponent runs a Substitute. However, what I'm asking that if these following things describe something unhealthy, what makes Umbreon fine? This is a very good decision to optionally add more Pokemon to the test-ban list. I was kind of afraid of Alakazam but Umbreon and Houndoom have been keeping it in check. Specs Typhlosion also haven't got the usage it should through its insane raw power but we'll see. Edit: I would also like to point out that the metagame without Chansey is way more fun. No, really. You can use multiple different types of teambuilds since so many special attackers and weaker physical attackers are viable now. The only downside is that you often leave yourself vulnerable to something with less defensive Pokemon. But hey, it's Pokemon. It's very matchup based game. If there's anything to really say about Chansey ban in general is that it has opened tons of options for other Pokemon to be used and that's great. I would personally use that as an argument that the metagame is healthier and just leave it at that but again that's just me. I just don't entirely agree with the reasoning of the post making Chansey in some way banworthy. Appreciate all the input, but it's important to note that the chansey post wasn't arguing that it was banworthy, just that it was test worthy. There's a pretty big difference there. No one is arguing that the listed pokes are only used because of chansey, too RysPicz 1 Link to comment
Murcielago Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 lol... some of these reasonings to ban chansey seem as if they come from another planet. Like... the things sited and reasoning doesn't even correspond to what happens in the game. Not that I care at this point, TBH I'm glad you banned it, though the ban was unwarranted. BlackJovi 1 Link to comment
OrangeManiac Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Gunthug said: Appreciate all the input, but it's important to note that the chansey post wasn't arguing that it was banworthy, just that it was test worthy. There's a pretty big difference there. No one is arguing that the listed pokes are only used because of chansey, too Well, after a test you should still be able to make arguments that why something is worth a ban for unhealthy characteristics, proven by results of a test. What comes to "test worthy", well there isn't a separate definition to it - or at least one that is made for the public to see. Tests just provide valuable information to either back up the arguments for a ban or dispute them. As far as I've seen it at least, you're the ones making the standards though. Also, I didn't take the post that aforementioned Pokemon were "only used because of Chansey". The post just used the specific Pokemon as evidence for Chansey's impact in the metagame and I wanted to dispute the ones that I didn't agree with to be related to Chansey in a notable way. We all know that no Pokemon is used solely for just one reason or just one specific Pokemon. Except Murkrow in current NU. New meta. Edited June 19, 2017 by OrangeManiac Link to comment
LuisPocho Posted July 3, 2017 Share Posted July 3, 2017 You deserved it fat pink blob. suigin, RysPicz, Bestfriends and 6 others 9 Link to comment
LifeStyle Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 Sooo unban Chansey? @BurntZebra @gbweed @Gunthug @Rigamorty @OtherTCDudes Sashaolin and Calculatrize 2 Link to comment
Zymogen Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 13 minutes ago, LifeStyle said: Sooo unban Chansey? @BurntZebra @gbweed @Gunthug @Rigamorty @OtherTCDudes Pls no Link to comment
SteveDerBaum Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 2 minutes ago, Zymogen said: Pls no And now? Link to comment
gbwead Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 27 minutes ago, LifeStyle said: Sooo unban Chansey? @BurntZebra @gbweed @Gunthug @Rigamorty @OtherTCDudes Why tho? Link to comment
LuisPocho Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 4 minutes ago, gbwead said: Why tho? Life loves stall, thats why he feels sad withouth chansey. gbwead 1 Link to comment
LifeStyle Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 11 minutes ago, LuisPocho said: Life loves stall, thats why he feels sad withouth chansey. Balance > Stall 17 minutes ago, gbwead said: Why tho? Because wynaut? Link to comment
gbwead Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 Just now, LifeStyle said: Because wynaut? After testing the OU metagame without Chansey, it seemed as if OU was in a much better place without Chansey and therefore Chansey was deemed unhealthy. BudsBender, Arimanius and KaynineXL 3 Link to comment
LifeStyle Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 4 minutes ago, gbwead said: After testing the OU metagame without Chansey, it seemed as if OU was in a much better place without Chansey and therefore Chansey was deemed unhealthy. Is this your opinion or all of TC's? I feel like you just wanna run hard gimmick stuff that Chansey renders useless Link to comment
gbwead Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 (edited) 3 minutes ago, LifeStyle said: Is this your opinion or all of TC's? I feel like you just wanna run hard gimmick stuff that Chansey renders useless I'm not going to speak on behalf of all TC members, but I do believe Chansey was unhealthy and that had nothing to do with wanting to play gimmicks or not. Edited July 25, 2017 by gbwead KaynineXL and BudsBender 2 Link to comment
RysPicz Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 UNBAN SNORLAX MaatthewMLG and FNTCZ 2 Link to comment
LifeStyle Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 22 minutes ago, gbwead said: I'm not going to speak on behalf of all TC members, but I do believe Chansey was unhealthy and that had nothing to do with wanting to play gimmicks or not. Lol last time you were good was in 2015, noob @Parke gbwead 1 Link to comment
Munya Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 It was the majority of TC's opinion at the time it was move from test banned to fully banned. If that is still their opinion I am unsure, if any of them think it is in need of being discussed again they are free to bring it up. Should probably wait to see what the usage for the month looks like though. Link to comment
raddevil Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 3 hours ago, kevola said: Ban venusaur Breed a tentacruel Zymogen and BlackJovi 2 Link to comment
FNTCZ Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 28 minutes ago, raddevil said: Breed a tentacruel muh centralization Link to comment
suigin Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 8 hours ago, LifeStyle said: Sooo unban Chansey? @BurntZebra @gbweed @Gunthug @Rigamorty @OtherTCDudes After Eviolite gets added :^) DaftCoolio 1 Link to comment
kevola Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 1 hour ago, raddevil said: Breed a tentacruel Like saying breed a haze Milotic for snorlax Link to comment
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