[OU Discussion] Serperior

[DARKEN]

I mean if legendaries were released then heatran would definitely destoy serp

 

 

[Huargensy]

Just play bouffalant sap sipper

[DARKEN]

i said this not to long ago. the reason people are fussing over serp is cause the meta wont be balanced until stuff like legendaries will be added. if you add heatran and zapdos for serpireor then you need to balance the broken- ness those pokemon will bring like add landouras therian and landouras's sheer utility will require more pokemon to equally balance landouras out however i think it wont be such a threat since rain and weavile thoughall we need is those four mons but my point is unless we dont have all those things like legendaries and HAs then there will always be an imbalance

 

 

personally i think all we need is legendaries and fairies and ha's

 

but the alternative is just play scarf chandelure, darm, mixe nape, volc bug buzz to hit through substitute,  scarf rain dnite

, ect. i play stall and semi stall so it isnt much of a problem for me

 

[MadaraSixSix]

6 hours ago, DARKEN said:

i always ohko serps with icicle spear weav

 

terrible situation if you played vs serp sub
(which is very common) and you still have a 10% chance of missing

[DARKEN]

1 hour ago, MadaraSixSix said:

terrible situation if you played vs serp sub
(which is very common) and you still have a 10% chance of missing

i use tspikes weezing so if serp switched it gets poisioned and i stall out and boom i go weav

Edited October 12, 2022 by DARKEN

[gbwead]

1 minute ago, DARKEN said:

i use tspikes weezing so if serp switched it gets poisioned and i stall out and boom i go weav

Very impressive!

[caioxlive13]

1 hour ago, DARKEN said:

i use tspikes weezing so if serp switched it gets poisioned and i stall out and boom i go weav

Only works if you have your own serperior, otherwise he will defog with a Rotom-W when you give the first chance.

[DARKEN]

18 hours ago, gbwead said:

Very impressive!

is that sacasm?

 

[RysPicz]

30 minutes ago, DARKEN said:

is that sacasm?

 

no he's genuinely impressed

[gbwead]

and boom my mind is blown

[Munya]

If you feel the need to make 3 back to back rapid replies, please use the edit button instead of replying 3 times.

[DARKEN]

14 hours ago, gbwead said:

and boom my mind is blown

srry,  just used to ppl clowning me alot. i also have toge on my team. im debating if icicle spear is better than crash. maybe i should but crash on my weav to test. and if what i read was true and im actually risking my weavile by icicle spearing on a sub serp the i have the rng. super lucky

 

252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 410-486 (140.8 - 167%) -- guaranteed OHKO nvm tho sice i am the brokest man alive and cant afford to breed

 

 

12 hours ago, DARKEN said:

252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 410-486 (140.8 - 167%) -- guaranteed OHKO nvm tho sice i am the brokest man alive and cant afford to breed. however i still dont think its better cause you can still break sub with icicle spear unlike crash so imma stick with spear

 

 

Edited October 12, 2022 by DARKEN

[razimove]

For like a few posts, it seemed he actually had some valid ideas, all is lost.

 

Meta can be somewhat balanced if they decided to re-integrate ubers tier, just like the meta can remain unhealthy with or without Serp, plus more HA coming, so discussing meta health rn is redudant, there are other mons with uber characteristics aswell on the meta that were present since their introduction.

 

The one thing that makes serperior ridiculously annoying to me is the rng layer paired with his ability, and that imo should be something to consider removal/tweaking of, both evasion boost and glare or even glare as alone, kinda like how garchomp lost SD, and Hydreigon Draco Meteor. That rng layer is a bit uncalled for.

Edited October 13, 2022 by razimove
typos

[pachima]

That moment when someone actually posts interesting stuff about this meta and everyone else tries to mock at them for absolutely no reason other than showing they don't understand the meta lmao.

Darken is fundamentally correct. We are beyond the point where we can get a truly balanced meta. We are beyond the point where we have all the tools to deal with a few problematic threats.

 

Garchomp has almost 50% usage in a meta where it is undisrupted. We lack the speed and the power to actually pressure it offensively. (Can't wait for all Weavile argments. A pokemon that would be otherwise not even OU)

Rotom-Wash has literally nothing in the tier (Besides Serperior, which people want banned), that punishes defog. That shouldn't happen at all. Shifting momentum offensively against defog users is one of the best ways Offense/Balance can get theirselves advantage. You simply cannot do that against Rotom-Wash. No matter what you send against it, Rotom can find itself able to regain momentum back with a slow Volt switch after defogging or a status move.

I lied. There is one pokemon: Hydreigon. (Which is nerfed either way)

 

We don't have Latios/Latias/Kyurem, the first two would pressure both Garchomp and Rotom-Wash offensively, and the latter would pressure Rotom-wash.

We don't have Celebi/Zapdos that would be able to withstand their momentum defensively.

We don't have Water absorb Seismitoad as a much better Gastrodon to actually punish Rotom and/or be able to set hazards on it.

 

Is serperior a problem in the tier? Yes, it is. But before jumping out on conclusions, why don't we try to actually understand where this problem comes from? Is it from itself? Or is it from the meta being so terribly centralized around already problematic things that are left unchecked that we have no space to handle something else? In other words, is it THE problem, or is it an extension of the real problem? 

 

Does this mean Serperior should not be banned? No. It means other stuff needs to be discussed first. Otherwise, banning Serperior would be similar as trying to retrieve water from a sinking ship back to the ocean with a tea spoon, instead of fixing the cause of the problem.

 

 

[Poufilou]

21 minutes ago, pachima said:

Does this mean Serperior should not be banned? No. It means other stuff needs to be discussed first. Otherwise, banning Serperior would be similar as trying to retrieve water from a sinking ship back to the ocean with a tea spoon, instead of fixing the cause of the problem.

I mean, why not, but since we don't really have the option for stuff to be Uber, what's the point ? Going over process like we have with Serperior to get it nerfed with pokemons like Garchomp and Rotom Wash sounds like wasting time especially when it's been like 2 years where people adapted to them. Complex banning stuff (cos that's what always happen here) should answer a very specific OP thing imo, not being the standard for balancing a tier. 

[gbwead]

30 minutes ago, pachima said:

That moment when someone actually posts interesting stuff about this meta and everyone else tries to mock at them for absolutely no reason other than showing they don't understand the meta lmao.

Darken is fundamentally correct. We are beyond the point where we can get a truly balanced meta. We are beyond the point where we have all the tools to deal with a few problematic threats.

 

Garchomp has almost 50% usage in a meta where it is undisrupted. We lack the speed and the power to actually pressure it offensively. (Can't wait for all Weavile argments. A pokemon that would be otherwise not even OU)

Rotom-Wash has literally nothing in the tier (Besides Serperior, which people want banned), that punishes defog. That shouldn't happen at all. Shifting momentum offensively against defog users is one of the best ways Offense/Balance can get theirselves advantage. You simply cannot do that against Rotom-Wash. No matter what you send against it, Rotom can find itself able to regain momentum back with a slow Volt switch after defogging or a status move.

I lied. There is one pokemon: Hydreigon. (Which is nerfed either way)

 

We don't have Latios/Latias/Kyurem, the first two would pressure both Garchomp and Rotom-Wash offensively, and the latter would pressure Rotom-wash.

We don't have Celebi/Zapdos that would be able to withstand their momentum defensively.

We don't have Water absorb Seismitoad as a much better Gastrodon to actually punish Rotom and/or be able to set hazards on it.

 

Is serperior a problem in the tier? Yes, it is. But before jumping out on conclusions, why don't we try to actually understand where this problem comes from? Is it from itself? Or is it from the meta being so terribly centralized around already problematic things that are left unchecked that we have no space to handle something else? In other words, is it THE problem, or is it an extension of the real problem? 

 

Does this mean Serperior should not be banned? No. It means other stuff needs to be discussed first. Otherwise, banning Serperior would be similar as trying to retrieve water from a sinking ship back to the ocean with a tea spoon, instead of fixing the cause of the problem.

It's really nice to complain about every little thing you believe is wrong with the OU metagame just so you can argue that Serperior is not a priority, but what are you actually suggesting? 

What should actually be done? You want to go after Garchomp? Rotom-Wash? Or are you expecting that by shedding enough tears you will be able to soften devs' heart to the point where they will release the legendaries you listed in order to appease you? What is the point of your post if you offer no argument relative to Serperior and no solution regarding the OU metagame? 

[caioxlive13]

1 hour ago, pachima said:

That moment when someone actually posts interesting stuff about this meta and everyone else tries to mock at them for absolutely no reason other than showing they don't understand the meta lmao.

Darken is fundamentally correct. We are beyond the point where we can get a truly balanced meta. We are beyond the point where we have all the tools to deal with a few problematic threats.

 

Garchomp has almost 50% usage in a meta where it is undisrupted. We lack the speed and the power to actually pressure it offensively. (Can't wait for all Weavile argments. A pokemon that would be otherwise not even OU)

Rotom-Wash has literally nothing in the tier (Besides Serperior, which people want banned), that punishes defog. That shouldn't happen at all. Shifting momentum offensively against defog users is one of the best ways Offense/Balance can get theirselves advantage. You simply cannot do that against Rotom-Wash. No matter what you send against it, Rotom can find itself able to regain momentum back with a slow Volt switch after defogging or a status move.

I lied. There is one pokemon: Hydreigon. (Which is nerfed either way)

 

We don't have Latios/Latias/Kyurem, the first two would pressure both Garchomp and Rotom-Wash offensively, and the latter would pressure Rotom-wash.

We don't have Celebi/Zapdos that would be able to withstand their momentum defensively.

We don't have Water absorb Seismitoad as a much better Gastrodon to actually punish Rotom and/or be able to set hazards on it.

 

Is serperior a problem in the tier? Yes, it is. But before jumping out on conclusions, why don't we try to actually understand where this problem comes from? Is it from itself? Or is it from the meta being so terribly centralized around already problematic things that are left unchecked that we have no space to handle something else? In other words, is it THE problem, or is it an extension of the real problem? 

 

Does this mean Serperior should not be banned? No. It means other stuff needs to be discussed first. Otherwise, banning Serperior would be similar as trying to retrieve water from a sinking ship back to the ocean with a tea spoon, instead of fixing the cause of the problem.

Finally someone who understands my point. Literally that's it, Serperior is said to be OP because the meta wasn't adapted to her, on the contrary, the meta was in the ideal terrain for her dominance. If you look at the usage statistics, most pokes from the old Over Used(Before the introduction of HAs), get 2HKOed by Leaf Storm, if not a direct OHKO. Those who end up resisting, lose to HP Fire or Dragon Pulse, so the meta wasn't prepared for a stronger grass.

Also, Chomp and Rotom-Wash are serious issues. Before , the only thing that could stop Rotom for deffoging is literally if the mon on your field: I - Being more faster than rotom , II - Have taunt or being a strong grass-type able to OHKO it . If you fail to do the two things, rotom could being KO, but not without removing hazards from your field. From teams that depend of a Suicide Lead to set hazards up(Hyper Offenses) or use Dual Screens, this was terrible because you certainly will not put hazards/screens back, leaving you in a big disadvantage. Now with Serperior, we can actually punish defog users, and safety secure that hazards will kept, and if Rotom-W still tries to defog, they can give +1 evasion for free to opponent(I win two matches literally because my opponent have -15 IQ and tries to defog with my serperior alive. They defog and after some time miss the move that could KO the serperior, thanks to evasion boost).

Garchomp gets banned in the past from OU, and returned losing SD, but this not ended the issue. Because they take away SD and Hone Claws replaced it. And Hone Claws Dragon Rush is a strong combination, because of Hone Claws's attack boost and Dragon Rush not missing due to Accuracy Boost. Not only that, their sets more focused on defense, remain unchanged.

The problem is the people of this meta look on wrong issue. King's Rock is a very clear example. They complain about it, but forgot 100% about Togekiss Scarf Air Slash. With Scarf, Togekiss can pass almost all OU, except some scarf users, and the chance of Flinch is more high(Togekiss:60% vs Cloyster:41,59%), also togekiss is more bulk, and harder to kill. Result? KR ended Banned and after some time Nerfed, but Air Slash Flinch Togekiss are still running as normal.

With serperior will be the same case, after their ban the meta will probablly return to be fragile to Grass, and will not take too long to Venusaur took serperior's place. Even being not too broken, with growth and Chrolphyll they can abuse easily from OU's Grass weakness, under sun. This will force every team to run Rain setters to stop sunlight and weak venusaur, or a Strong Special Wall to hold it. Sand will not help because Hippo and Tytar are weak to grass and aren't safety switches against Venu. Now, tell me, which team Hyper Offense uses Walls, if they run a suicide lead? Answer is: none. Also, i forgot to mention, Venusaur are Poison-type, meaning that he cannot receive Toxic, and with Giga Drain, i doubt that the most common Special Wall in OU, chansey, could do anything. Only TWave it and switch to other mon KO it
 

Edited October 13, 2022 by caioxlive13

[Azphiel]

2 hours ago, pachima said:

Rotom-Wash has literally nothing in the tier (Besides Serperior, which people want banned), that punishes defog. That shouldn't happen at all. Shifting momentum offensively against defog users is one of the best ways Offense/Balance can get theirselves advantage. You simply cannot do that against Rotom-Wash. No matter what you send against it, Rotom can find itself able to regain momentum back with a slow Volt switch after defogging or a status move.

I lied. There is one pokemon: Hydreigon. (Which is nerfed either way)

I don't see Rotom-Wash as a problem in OU. 

 

You mentionned Hydreigon and Serperior being able to punish the defog. There are others :

-Breloom

-Venusaur (sure, it is not common)

-RotomMow

-Special defense Garchomp winning the 1v1 or any toxic Garchomp could punish it

-Special attack DracoMeteor Garchomp pressures it and has very few switches

-Chansey/Blissey switching for free and getting all the momentum with teleport

 

I might have forgotten some other ways.

It is indeed a top tier, if I had to rate him I would put him in S tier alongside Garchomp. What I mainly like is the ability of Garchomp and RotomWash to potentially check each other depending of their sets. In my eyes this is not a sign of an unhealthy meta.

 

I know the thread is about Serperior and I'm sorry if I disgress, but I feel like your complaint about RotomWash and Garchomp is just not right.

[EmilioGarras]

Derailling the post and bringing Garchomp and Rotomwash to the serperior discussion makes no sense because chomp got already nerfed getting swords dance out, the sand veil thing is a matter of another discussion. Rotom Wash fits perfectly well in OU so i would not touch it.

Also bringing Togekiss or some other pokemon to the discussion doesn't help. 

I think we should focus on a solution to the problems it generates to some players that serperior can snowball quick without a stop, and on top of that having moves that screws your rng like Glare and the evasion boost. There are 2 options for the moment we don't have to count which is bringing minor legendaries like Zapdos or Heatran because that will happen in 2050 and more pokes with HA seems like a good solution, but let's try to see if we can figure something with the tools we currently have. 

Edited October 13, 2022 by EmilioGarras

[pachima]

I am not derailing anything. Pokemon isn't linear. You don't discuss Serperior by itself. I brought Garchomp and Rotom because that's what centralizes the tier and restricts building the the extent of not having slots for new threats (Like Serperior).

 

What will you do once the next threat is implemented? You discuss it again, and so on and so on, or you discuss the actual real problem to avoid dragging the whole thing up?

 

There is no meta where a 50% usage Pokemon is fine. And there is no discussion where ignoring half the teams used for the sake of arguing Serperior is any legit.

 

[caioxlive13]

53 minutes ago, Azphiel said:

I don't see Rotom-Wash as a problem in OU. 

 

You mentionned Hydreigon and Serperior being able to punish the defog. There are others :

-Breloom

-Venusaur (sure, it is not common)

-RotomMow

-Special defense Garchomp winning the 1v1 or any toxic Garchomp could punish it

-Special attack DracoMeteor Garchomp pressures it and has very few switches

-Chansey/Blissey switching for free and getting all the momentum with teleport

 

I might have forgotten some other ways.

It is indeed a top tier, if I had to rate him I would put him in S tier alongside Garchomp. What I mainly like is the ability of Garchomp and RotomWash to potentially check each other depending of their sets. In my eyes this is not a sign of an unhealthy meta.

 

I know the thread is about Serperior and I'm sorry if I disgress, but I feel like your complaint about RotomWash and Garchomp is just not right.

Breloom is very uncommon in OU, before HA introduction. Now is much more uncommon. and nothing of this can really force people to think before defog, unless Breloom/Venusaur/Rotom-Mow, IF they're on the field before rotom defog. After they defog, you can just switch and save your rotom

Serperior actually can, because on Switch-in , they earn evasion boost, making people think before defog and not just click it and next turn switch.

[caioxlive13]

9 minutes ago, pachima said:

I am not derailing anything. Pokemon isn't linear. You don't discuss Serperior by itself. I brought Garchomp and Rotom because that's what centralizes the tier and restricts building the the extent of not having slots for new threats (Like Serperior).

 

What will you do once the next threat is implemented? You discuss it again, and so on and so on, or you discuss the actual real problem to avoid dragging the whole thing up?

 

There is no meta where a 50% usage Pokemon is fine. And there is no discussion where ignoring half the teams used for the sake of arguing Serperior is any legit.

 

Unfortunately it is historically like this, people think that only X pokemon can dominate the meta. Anything that emerges as a potential threat to your dominance must be banned. We can play against Serperior, removing glare allows some offensive pokes to be comfortable against one, like the already mentioned Togekiss scarf, but they want Contrary to be removed because with the ability and its offensive set, it's a threat to Rotom-W, Chomp, and Scizor dominance.

Edited October 13, 2022 by caioxlive13

[Munya]

Please stay on the topic of serperior, if you wish to talk about OU as a whole or something that does not directly relate to serperior being banworthy or not, please do so in the OU discussion thread.

[gbwead]

34 minutes ago, caioxlive13 said:

Breloom is very uncommon in OU, before HA introduction. Now is much more uncommon. and nothing of this can really force people to think before defog, unless Breloom/Venusaur/Rotom-Mow, IF they're on the field before rotom defog. After they defog, you can just switch and save your rotom

Serperior actually can, because on Switch-in , they earn evasion boost, making people think before defog and not just click it and next turn switch.

Any pokemon that learn Defog can do Defog and then switch out. The point you are trying to make could apply to any Defog user, not just Rotom.

 

Also, people need to remember that Serperior is accused first of being UBER and second being UNHEALTHY. Arguing that Serperior is actually not unhealthy because it can punish Rotom doesn't mean much; that completly misses the bigger point that Serperior is a UBER mon and it's never a good reason to keep a UBER mon in a tier just so it can check other threats.

 

Being suspected to be UBER is like being suspected of having committed murder. Being suspected to be UNHEALTHY is like being suspected of having commited theft. Murder is a way bigger crime than theft, so focusing only about whether or not Serperior is unhealthy does not accomplish much.

 

 

edit:

 

35 minutes ago, pachima said:

There is no meta where a 50% usage Pokemon is fine. And there is no discussion where ignoring half the teams used for the sake of arguing Serperior is any legit.

Not a single person in this thread has done that. Don't make empty accusations just for the sake of painting a bad image of players that want Serperior banned instead of building a case for Serperior to stay OU.

 

Edited October 13, 2022 by gbwead

[OGQT]

Well, we have Infiltrator Crobat now. That should help tremendously (probably why it was the first Alpha swarm to be implemented after the update)