PoseidonWrath Posted April 3, 2023 Share Posted April 3, 2023 What is this? This thread is being opened to discuss Nidoqueen and its dominance that it will bring in the Neverused Tier (NU). Overview: Nidoqueen is a underrated and a surprisingly versatile Pokemon. It's a great fit on balance, stall and HO teams. Its movepool is quite versatile and dangerous with access to both Stealth Rock and, notably, Toxic Spikes. On top of which its typing makes it resistant to Fighting/Rock type moves and immune to Toxic, Thunder Wave, and Volt Switch making it an incredibly formidable pokemon. Its decent bulk paired with the above can let it survive some hits from alot of Pokemon. Some examples of its Sheer Power: Spoiler 252 Atk Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Nidoqueen: 109-129 (66 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252+ Atk Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Nidoqueen: 120-142 (72.7 - 86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252 SpA Life Orb Sceptile Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Nidoqueen: 83-99 (50.3 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252 SpA Life Orb Sceptile Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Nidoqueen: 142-169 (86 - 102.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO 252 Atk Drapion Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Nidoqueen: 102-120 (61.8 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252 Atk Sniper Drapion Night Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Nidoqueen on a critical hit: 118-141 (71.5 - 85.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252 Atk Absol Night Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Nidoqueen on a critical hit: 102-121 (61.8 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HK 252 Atk Absol Psycho Cut vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Nidoqueen on a critical hit: 136-162 (82.4 - 98.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252 SpA Froslass Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Nidoqueen: 128-152 (77.5 - 92.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO +2 252 SpA Rotom-Fan Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Nidoqueen: 127-150 (76.9 - 90.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252 SpA Houndoom Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Nidoqueen: 79-94 (47.8 - 56.9%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO 252 SpA Black Glasses Houndoom Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Nidoqueen: 84-100 (50.9 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252 Atk Black Glasses Houndoom Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Nidoqueen: 73-87 (44.2 - 52.7%) -- 18.8% chance to 2HKO 252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking: 91-109 (45.2 - 54.2%) -- 44.5% chance to 2HKO 0 SpA Slowking Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Nidoqueen: 104-126 (63 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 0 SpA Slowking Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Nidoqueen: 116-140 (70.3 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 0 SpA Mantine Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Nidoqueen: 86-104 (52.1 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mantine: 151-182 (78.6 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Miltank: 161-190 (79.7 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Miltank: 95-113 (47 - 55.9%) -- 76.2% chance to 2HKO 4 SpA Vaporeon Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Nidoqueen: 114-134 (69 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vaporeon: 101-120 (42.6 - 50.6%) -- 34% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery 252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 82-97 (37.6 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery 0 SpA Gastrodon Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Nidoqueen: 110-132 (66.6 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Golbat: 78-94 (43 - 51.9%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO 252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Golbat: 78-94 (43 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock 0 Atk Golbat Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Nidoqueen: 64-76 (38.7 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO 252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowbro: 83-99 (41 - 49%) -- 76.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock 252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowbro: 87-105 (43 - 51.9%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock 252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowbro: 112-133 (55.4 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 138-164 (68.3 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery 252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 82-97 (40.5 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery 252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tentacruel: 127-151 (67.9 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery 252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tentacruel: 86-101 (45.9 - 54%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery 252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Lanturn: 117-140 (50.4 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Scrafty: 117-140 (68 - 81.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery 252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Hitmontop: 66-78 (42 - 49.6%) -- 18% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock 252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Altaria: 75-90 (41.2 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery 252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Hariyama: 105-125 (41.8 - 49.8%) -- 19.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock 252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lickilicky: 133-159 (61.2 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery 252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Bronzor: 73-86 (44.5 - 52.4%) -- 71.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock Personally i believe Nido is to much for NU, although I look forward to the discussion. Give us your input and discuss! Imperial, repposh, MathewMat and 4 others 5 2 Link to comment
Imperial Posted April 3, 2023 Share Posted April 3, 2023 (edited) First off, thank you for putting this thread up. I've used Nidoqueen in every single one of my teams - I've battled against all playstyles (Hyper Offense, Full Stall, Balance/Bulky Offense) and have won against players ranging from unranked/trainer to #1 so I hope that the number of games I've played helps to provide valuable insight into Nidoqueen after the tier changes. First off, let's look at how Nidoqueen is faring in the tier after the first three days: Nidoqueen currently has the highest win % out of all of the Pokemon, including the most threatening ones such as Blaziken and Eelektross (I won't count Primape as 1.3% is hardly a good indicator of usage). Already, this shows how much of an influence the Pokemon has had on the meta. Defensively Nidoqueen was always a solid option for balanced and defensive teams - it was able to sponge hits on the physical and special set depending on its set, very good bulk, its ability to set up stealth rocks and toxic spikes/toxic and access to Ice Beam/Earth Power/Flamethrower/Thunderbolt and Earthquake on the physical set meant it already pressured teams. Offensively The biggest concern and why I'm glad the discussion is taking place is its offensive Life Orb set. Nidoqueen is a fantastic wallbreaker just like Yanmega in UU, but unlike Yanmega, it does not have a x4 weakness to rocks meaning it can switch into hazards safely, it's a fantastic volt stopper meaning it heavily pressures Rotoms and Eelektross as it outspeeds both (Eelektross is already a solid A+), it has fantastic dual typing for the tier, it's unable to be poisoned and it can also self-recover with Moonlight if needed. Calcs The set I've been using is Earth Power / Sludge Wave / Thunderbolt / Flamethrower although I've seen some people ice Ice Beam over Thunderbolt for Altaria (meaning Mantine can check it) and others have swapped an offensive move for Moonlight. As a wallbreaker, it's able to 2KO almost every single defensive mon in the tier, especially when hazards are on the field. I've provided the following calcs below from the defensive Pokemon I've commonly faced (credit to @PoseidonWrath for posting several others so I've only listed a few examples): Spoiler Bronzor 252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Bronzor: 73-86 (44.5 - 52.4%) -- 71.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock Slowking 252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking: 91-109 (45 - 53.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock Mantine 252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mantine: 151-182 (78.6 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock Quagsire 252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Quagsire: 142-168 (70.2 - 83.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock Slowbro 252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro: 161-190 (79.7 - 94%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock Sableye 252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sableye: 142-168 (90.4 - 107%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock Piloswine 252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Piloswine: 99-118 (47.8 - 57%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock Altaria 252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Altaria: 75-90 (41.2 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock Checks The following Pokemon are able to check Nidoqueen, some more reliably than others. Please note that I'll be going with the most offensive set with a STAB move: Spoiler Hariyama (Assault Gear) 252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Hariyama: 75-91 (29.8 - 36.2%) -- 96.9% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock 6+ Atk Hariyama Ice Punch vs. 6 HP / 0 Def Nidoqueen: 82-98 (49.3 - 59%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO *EVs can be customised for more optimal use Audino 252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino: 86-101 (40.9 - 48%) -- 59.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock *Not the most reliable check, however if played correctly Audino can PP stall Nidoqueen with the Wish + Protect set, switching out with Regenerator if needed Clefable 252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 82-97 (40.5 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO *Same as Audino, Clefable will only be able to PP stall with Wish + Protect and returning damage with Psywave/Seismic Toss if played correctly Lickilicky 252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lickilicky: 79-95 (36.4 - 43.7%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock 6 Atk Lickilicky Body Slam vs. 6 HP / 0 Def Nidoqueen: 49-58 (29.5 - 34.9%) -- 11.6% chance to 3HKO *A very niche mon in the tier when you have Audino and Clefable, but again, the possibly of PP stalling with the Wish + Protect set whilst returning damage with Body Slam and potentially paralysing Nidoqueen in the process Dusknoir (Assault Gear) 252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Dusknoir: 52-62 (34.2 - 40.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock 252+ Atk Dusknoir Earthquake vs. 6 HP / 0 Def Nidoqueen: 118-140 (71 - 84.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Like every Pokemon, Nidoqueen has its flaws. Nidoqueen isn't the fastest in the tier, and a lot of Pokemon are able to pressure it, such as Sceptile (must have leaf storm to 1KO it after rocks), Sharpedo and Cloyster (if scarf/sash), Gallade, Alakazam and Zoroark. It is also vulnerable to priority moves from Pokemon such as Azumarill, Samurott and potentially Absol. In conclusion, as much as I loved using this Pokemon, it's clear that it threatens both the offensive and defensive staple of the tier, and even if people take the time to adapt, unlike with Yanmega in UU the tools we currently have are too fragile to reliably check and pressure Nidoqueen meaning that it should be quick banned. I would love to hear members of Tier Council defend Nidoqueen since they love an unstable tier, and I speak as an offensive-styled player so I don't have any hidden motives behind my reasoning. P.S. Please do not quote me Caioxlive. Edited April 3, 2023 by Imperial Done. Cristi, Queza, Missit and 4 others 4 3 Link to comment
ArtOfKilling Posted April 3, 2023 Share Posted April 3, 2023 (edited) Too strong, requires specific mons and sets to be countered. Made the whole tier centralized around it. Can't be killed with any hit that isn't super effective no matter how strong the physical/special attack of the opposing mon ex: Specs Houndoom,Zoroark Dark Moves,and Band Blaziken Flare Blitz. Not to mention it's crazy typing which isn't only a threat to volt switchers but also has the bulk, firepower and ability to set up rocks. It's just the jack of trades of all mons right now in NU. Whoever is in charge of Nidoqueen dropping to NU despite the usage rate etc needs to reconsider how strong stuff like Nido is despite the usage being below "x" or not. 252 SpA Choice Specs Zoroark Extrasensory vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Nidoqueen: 148-176 (75.1 - 89.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252 Atk Choice Band Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Nidoqueen: 163-193 (82.7 - 97.9%) Edited April 3, 2023 by ArtOfKilling repposh and PoseidonWrath 1 1 Link to comment
DoubleJ Posted April 3, 2023 Share Posted April 3, 2023 @Imperial great post, thank you for that. Kudos to @PoseidonWrath for drafting the thread. Overall, I do believe Nidoqueen is a monster and a match-up nightmare. If the stats continue as they have it will prove to be BL2 worthy. Our current guidelines state a month for an effective suspect test, and I imagine we'll have an answer by then PoseidonWrath and Imperial 1 1 Link to comment
caioxlive13 Posted April 4, 2023 Share Posted April 4, 2023 17 hours ago, Imperial said: First off, thank you for putting this thread up. I've used Nidoqueen in every single one of my teams - I've battled against all playstyles (Hyper Offense, Full Stall, Balance/Bulky Offense) and have won against players ranging from unranked/trainer to #1 so I hope that the number of games I've played helps to provide valuable insight into Nidoqueen after the tier changes. First off, let's look at how Nidoqueen is faring in the tier after the first three days: Nidoqueen currently has the highest win % out of all of the Pokemon, including the most threatening ones such as Blaziken and Eelektross (I won't count Primape as 1.3% is hardly a good indicator of usage). Already, this shows how much of an influence the Pokemon has had on the meta. Defensively Nidoqueen was always a solid option for balanced and defensive teams - it was able to sponge hits on the physical and special set depending on its set, very good bulk, its ability to set up stealth rocks and toxic spikes/toxic and access to Ice Beam/Earth Power/Flamethrower/Thunderbolt and Earthquake on the physical set meant it already pressured teams. Offensively The biggest concern and why I'm glad the discussion is taking place is its offensive Life Orb set. Nidoqueen is a fantastic wallbreaker just like Yanmega in UU, but unlike Yanmega, it does not have a x4 weakness to rocks meaning it can switch into hazards safely, it's a fantastic volt stopper meaning it heavily pressures Rotoms and Eelektross as it outspeeds both (Eelektross is already a solid A+), it has fantastic dual typing for the tier, it's unable to be poisoned and it can also self-recover with Moonlight if needed. Calcs The set I've been using is Earth Power / Sludge Wave / Thunderbolt / Flamethrower although I've seen some people ice Ice Beam over Thunderbolt for Altaria (meaning Mantine can check it) and others have swapped an offensive move for Moonlight. As a wallbreaker, it's able to 2KO almost every single defensive mon in the tier, especially when hazards are on the field. I've provided the following calcs below from the defensive Pokemon I've commonly faced (credit to @PoseidonWrath for posting several others so I've only listed a few examples): Reveal hidden contents Bronzor 252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Bronzor: 73-86 (44.5 - 52.4%) -- 71.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock Slowking 252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking: 91-109 (45 - 53.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock Mantine 252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mantine: 151-182 (78.6 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock Quagsire 252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Quagsire: 142-168 (70.2 - 83.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock Slowbro 252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro: 161-190 (79.7 - 94%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock Sableye 252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sableye: 142-168 (90.4 - 107%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock Piloswine 252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Piloswine: 99-118 (47.8 - 57%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock Altaria 252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Altaria: 75-90 (41.2 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock Checks The following Pokemon are able to check Nidoqueen, some more reliably than others. Please note that I'll be going with the most offensive set with a STAB move: Reveal hidden contents Hariyama (Assault Gear) 252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Hariyama: 75-91 (29.8 - 36.2%) -- 96.9% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock 6+ Atk Hariyama Ice Punch vs. 6 HP / 0 Def Nidoqueen: 82-98 (49.3 - 59%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO *EVs can be customised for more optimal use Audino 252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino: 86-101 (40.9 - 48%) -- 59.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock *Not the most reliable check, however if played correctly Audino can PP stall Nidoqueen with the Wish + Protect set, switching out with Regenerator if needed Clefable 252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 82-97 (40.5 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO *Same as Audino, Clefable will only be able to PP stall with Wish + Protect and returning damage with Psywave/Seismic Toss if played correctly Lickilicky 252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lickilicky: 79-95 (36.4 - 43.7%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock 6 Atk Lickilicky Body Slam vs. 6 HP / 0 Def Nidoqueen: 49-58 (29.5 - 34.9%) -- 11.6% chance to 3HKO *A very niche mon in the tier when you have Audino and Clefable, but again, the possibly of PP stalling with the Wish + Protect set whilst returning damage with Body Slam and potentially paralysing Nidoqueen in the process Dusknoir (Assault Gear) 252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Dusknoir: 52-62 (34.2 - 40.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock 252+ Atk Dusknoir Earthquake vs. 6 HP / 0 Def Nidoqueen: 118-140 (71 - 84.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Like every Pokemon, Nidoqueen has its flaws. Nidoqueen isn't the fastest in the tier, and a lot of Pokemon are able to pressure it, such as Sceptile (must have leaf storm to 1KO it after rocks), Sharpedo and Cloyster (if scarf/sash), Gallade, Alakazam and Zoroark. It is also vulnerable to priority moves from Pokemon such as Azumarill, Samurott and potentially Absol. In conclusion, as much as I loved using this Pokemon, it's clear that it threatens both the offensive and defensive staple of the tier, and even if people take the time to adapt, unlike with Yanmega in UU the tools we currently have are too fragile to reliably check and pressure Nidoqueen meaning that it should be quick banned. I would love to hear members of Tier Council defend Nidoqueen since they love an unstable tier, and I speak as an offensive-styled player so I don't have any hidden motives behind my reasoning. P.S. Please do not quote me Caioxlive. And how i would counter your argument? Main problem of Nidoqueen is need to choose beetween lose to Altaria(using TBolt) or lose to Mantine(Using Ice Beam) but i wouldn't be suprised if some people decide to run both Ice Beam and TBolt giving up of Sludge Wave, just to knockout a Altaria/Mantine without him switching out. Queza and HumongousNoodle 2 Link to comment
Azphiel Posted April 5, 2023 Share Posted April 5, 2023 So far I've seen most teams using Nidoqueen and it usually always gets 1 to 2 kills per game, consistently. The bulk it has would just allow it to beat one on one most Pokemons and you are obviously scared of switching around a pokemon with such coverage and firepower, it's always a huge risk. Using Nidoqueen is ridiculously rewarding as it is quite easy to put on the field (it resists rocks and is great at checking Rotom and Eelektross which are both top usage) and would pretty much always threaten to KO something in return. Amazing against offensive and stallish teams. I think the best Nidoqueen answer there is is Cryogonal... which is sad. It's only been 5 days and I've already seen several games decided by Nidoqueen vs Nidoqueen speedties which says much about the issue : you want to use Nidoqueen because it's too great not to use and you don't want to switch in front of Nidoqueen because you don't have a switch to it. I am in favor of Nidoqueen being banned from NU. Imperial, gbwead, repposh and 2 others 4 1 Link to comment
Queza Posted April 5, 2023 Share Posted April 5, 2023 17 hours ago, caioxlive13 said: And how i would counter your argument? Main problem of Nidoqueen is need to choose beetween lose to Altaria(using TBolt) or lose to Mantine(Using Ice Beam) but i wouldn't be suprised if some people decide to run both Ice Beam and TBolt giving up of Sludge Wave, just to knockout a Altaria/Mantine without him switching out. Why in the world would you give up STAB that hits majority of the meta with no problem for tbolt & ice beam doing essentially the same. Its not 1v6 bro. Link to comment
Shadow Posted April 5, 2023 Share Posted April 5, 2023 3 hours ago, Queza said: Why in the world would you give up STAB that hits majority of the meta with no problem for tbolt & ice beam doing essentially the same. Its not 1v6 bro. If you had to give one of the stabs up, the poison one for the meta is kinda more reasonable than the ground one in Queen' case Link to comment
Queza Posted April 5, 2023 Share Posted April 5, 2023 27 minutes ago, Shadow said: If you had to give one of the stabs up, the poison one for the meta is kinda more reasonable than the ground one in Queen' case Surely you're trolling me, Earth power invites anything with levitate or ground immunity in, flamethrower for the steel types that poison doesn't hit or not very effective and as previously mentioned, one of the two dependant on what the team needs most + either moonlight/rocks or spikes. While sludge wave hits over 60% of the meta freely. Egoscape 1 Link to comment
Shadow Posted April 5, 2023 Share Posted April 5, 2023 2 hours ago, Queza said: Surely you're trolling me, Earth power invites anything with levitate or ground immunity in, flamethrower for the steel types that poison doesn't hit or not very effective and as previously mentioned, one of the two dependant on what the team needs most + either moonlight/rocks or spikes. While sludge wave hits over 60% of the meta freely. precisely, you can hold EP/TBolt/IceBeam/Flame, and its a reasonable option, which flying type can enter in those? Also Bronzor cant go into flamethrower. I'm not saying you can't have SludgeWave but its probably better to switch it if you wanted coverage holding 4 moves, without counting stealthrocks, moonlight or toxic spikes variants for example. CaptnBaklava 1 Link to comment
Queza Posted April 5, 2023 Share Posted April 5, 2023 1 hour ago, Shadow said: precisely, you can hold EP/TBolt/IceBeam/Flame, and its a reasonable option, which flying type can enter in those? Also Bronzor cant go into flamethrower. I'm not saying you can't have SludgeWave but its probably better to switch it if you wanted coverage holding 4 moves, without counting stealthrocks, moonlight or toxic spikes variants for example. If that works for your team being purely offensive then go for it im sure theres a minority out there that would run it. Just on paper it seems mickey mouse compared to the other sets. Egoscape and Shadow 1 1 Link to comment
caioxlive13 Posted April 6, 2023 Share Posted April 6, 2023 (edited) 12 hours ago, Queza said: If that works for your team being purely offensive then go for it im sure theres a minority out there that would run it. Just on paper it seems mickey mouse compared to the other sets. Not exactly. Flying Types take more to Ice Beam/TBolt and mons that get hitted like a truck by Sludge Wave also take same hit from Earth Power(Earth Power has 90 BP and Sludge Wave 95 BP) except if are a Grass-type that still take a ... ton of dmg to Flamethrower/Ice Beam anyway. Only affected matchup are Nidoqueen vs Eletric + Levitate (Rotom-Base(Rotom-Frost if someone uses it, lose to Flamethrower and Rotom-Fan loses to Ice Beam) and Eelektross) Edited April 6, 2023 by caioxlive13 epicdavenport and Queza 1 1 Link to comment
BeluMEX Posted April 6, 2023 Share Posted April 6, 2023 252+ SpA Choice Specs Lumineon Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Nidoqueen: 194-230 (98.4 - 116.7%). Is time to use the godmineon (「*ω*)「 Vee760, DoubleJ and MiraiZura 2 1 Link to comment
gbwead Posted April 11, 2023 Share Posted April 11, 2023 On 4/3/2023 at 6:10 PM, DoubleJ said: Our current guidelines state a month for an effective suspect test, and I imagine we'll have an answer by then There is no suspect test btw. Historically, a suspect test refers to when a pokemon gets banned with the assumption the meta will be healthier without its presence. Once that assumption is confirmed through a suspect test, the mon becomes officially banned. Lately, a suspect test also refers to the reintroduction of a previously banned pokemon (like p2 in UU). Quote Reversing a Prior Ban & Suspect Tests If a metagame has changed significantly to consider reversing a previous ban, the tier council will discuss and vote upon reversing the ban. If a ban is reversed, then a suspect test will be initiated, whereas the Pokemon being questioned will be reintroduced to the tier it was previously banned from. No other bans may be reversed during a suspect test, nor any bans be made (unless needed to be done emergently, if this occurs the suspect test will likely need to be extended). Changes can still occur based on usage. These typically happen at the beginning of a season when they will have the least impact on tiers. The guidelines are largely the same as the standard process. Nidoqueen was not banned before. Nidoqueen is not being reintroduced. Nidoqueen Sheer Force has never been NU before. epicdavenport 1 Link to comment
Zokuru Posted April 11, 2023 Share Posted April 11, 2023 On 4/4/2023 at 12:37 PM, caioxlive13 said: And how i would counter your argument? Main problem of Nidoqueen is need to choose beetween lose to Altaria(using TBolt) or lose to Mantine(Using Ice Beam) but i wouldn't be suprised if some people decide to run both Ice Beam and TBolt giving up of Sludge Wave, just to knockout a Altaria/Mantine without him switching out. Altaria takes like 40% to Sludge Wave and you only have 8 Roost. Please stop posting nonsense in every thread you manage to click on. NiceRNGbro, LeJovi, DoubleJ and 1 other 3 1 Link to comment
CaptnBaklava Posted April 11, 2023 Share Posted April 11, 2023 1 hour ago, Zokuru said: Altaria takes like 40% to Sludge Wave and you only have 8 Roost. Please stop posting nonsense in every thread you manage to click on. 252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Altaria: 75-90 (41.2 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery Spoiler just to provide the calc to your statement. NiceRNGbro and DoubleJ 2 Link to comment
caioxlive13 Posted April 11, 2023 Share Posted April 11, 2023 6 hours ago, Zokuru said: Altaria takes like 40% to Sludge Wave and you only have 8 Roost. Please stop posting nonsense in every thread you manage to click on. If people would consider this, they wouldn't run Ice Beam over Tbolt like Imperial says that happens: On 4/3/2023 at 2:07 PM, Imperial said: Calcs The set I've been using is Earth Power / Sludge Wave / Thunderbolt / Flamethrower although I've seen some people ice Ice Beam over Thunderbolt for Altaria (meaning Mantine can check it) and others have swapped an offensive move for Moonlight. Queza 1 Link to comment
DoubleJ Posted April 11, 2023 Share Posted April 11, 2023 @gbwead you don't want us to vote now, just FYI. But you're right, we could vote as early as a week after the thread opens given it is a standard ban process. Nido looks op, but the tier is shifting and some aren't sold it's uber offensive yet. gbwead 1 Link to comment
drewq Posted April 11, 2023 Share Posted April 11, 2023 19 minutes ago, DoubleJ said: @gbwead you don't want us to vote now, just FYI. But you're right, we could vote as early as a week after the thread opens given it is a standard ban process. Nido looks op, but the tier is shifting and some aren't sold it's uber offensive yet. I'm curious, could they comment here and tell us why it's not uber offensive? I've seen you and Wrath share your thoughts which is much appreciated. Perhaps there are good reasons it isn't considered broken in the tier and I'd love to see justification for this viewpoint so discussion can unfold from there. Link to comment
gbwead Posted April 11, 2023 Share Posted April 11, 2023 29 minutes ago, DoubleJ said: @gbwead you don't want us to vote now, just FYI. But you're right, we could vote as early as a week after the thread opens given it is a standard ban process. Nido looks op, but the tier is shifting and some aren't sold it's uber offensive yet. I'm not saying that you should vote or shouldn't vote now. I personally am also not convinced Nidoqueen should be quick banned. I just wanted to make sure Nidoqueen was not being treated as a suspect test because this is not the case. Link to comment
Munya Posted April 12, 2023 Share Posted April 12, 2023 Whenever we were re-writing the definitions I asked about suspect tests and from what we came up with this falls into suspect category via definitions. According to it it doesn't need to have been banned first, it just needs to be identified as a potential problem. What is a suspect test? A suspect test is when a pokemon is identified to potentially be a problem, but without practical evidence there is reasonable doubt. So a test period can be initiated to try the pokemon in a tier to find out. smadagos 1 Link to comment
gbwead Posted April 12, 2023 Share Posted April 12, 2023 You never initiated a suspect test. You didn't even set a end date for the test period. There is no "suspect test" mention in the entire OP. This is not a suspect test. You're only saying now that it is a suspect test in order to bypass the option to quick ban Nidoqueen. As distastful as it may be for a pokemon to get banned mid month, quickbans are a possibility for a reason. Link to comment
gbwead Posted April 12, 2023 Share Posted April 12, 2023 Please refer to the tiering policy: Quote Reversing a Prior Ban & Suspect Tests If a metagame has changed significantly to consider reversing a previous ban, the tier council will discuss and vote upon reversing the ban. If a ban is reversed, then a suspect test will be initiated, whereas the Pokemon being questioned will be reintroduced to the tier it was previously banned from. No other bans may be reversed during a suspect test, nor any bans be made (unless needed to be done emergently, if this occurs the suspect test will likely need to be extended). Changes can still occur based on usage. These typically happen at the beginning of a season when they will have the least impact on tiers. The guidelines are largely the same as the standard process. A community member or tier council member recommends discussion on a Pokemon or an aspect of the competitive metagame that is currently banned(i.e. move, ability, etc.). If deemed appropriate, a tier council member then opens a discussion thread in the public forum. The community and tier council discuss the aspects of the aforementioned Pokemon, move, ability, etc for a period of at least one week (will likely take longer). After a period of at least one week of discussion, the tier council will vote whether to proceed with a suspect test of the nominated Pokemon, move, ability, etc. Suspect tests will last for a period of at least one month, and likely for an entire 3-month cycle. This allows for analysis of the tier and discussion amongst the tier council and the community. The tier council will proceed with a vote to reinstate the ban or keep the suspected Pokemon once the appropriate amount of time has passed and a decision is ready to be made. A vote requires a 2/3 majority by the tier council to pass When the decision is made, the council will post in the thread and notify the community of the decision. This post will provide the reasons behind the decision. No bans or unbans will be made for a period of at least one month after the Suspect Test is announced in order for the tier to stabilize after the change; changes may still occur by usage as dictated above. Not only is this obviously not a suspect test, it would also be absurd to initiate a suspect test period considering the 8 points that comes with a suspect test. It would automatically mean that Vaporeon/Cloyster/Scrafty become untouchable based on point 8. It would mean a 2/3 majority would be required for a ban vote to pass. Players were asking Nidoqueen to be quick banned prior to it being introduced in NU. Why would we want to give extra protection to Nidoqueen with a 2/3 majority vote being required for a ban? None of these things should apply. And for the record, I personally don't even think Nidoqueen should be quick banned and waiting until the end of the month is fine. Vaporeon imo is a way bigger threat. However, even though I somewhat disagree, I think it's unacceptable that TC has voted for Nidoqueen to get quick banned by a 3-1 vote and yet you are interfering with the result of that vote. You are supposed to enforced the decisions of the TC, not prevent their decisions. Julito55 1 Link to comment
Munya Posted April 12, 2023 Share Posted April 12, 2023 Then that section of the policy needs to be re-written, its likely an oversight that it wasn't trying to condense multiple sections into one. Nobody is doing anything to try and "bypass" anything, a quick ban is the last resort option, people wanted to test it as there was doubt, hence the no quick ban, and some still want to take it to the end of the month before making the decision on to ban it or not. We can initiate a vote now but you are likely not going to get the result you want doing it before people are decided on the issue. Its not like I didn't ask for community input in the definitions thread either, that post is still very much there. Link to comment
gbwead Posted April 12, 2023 Share Posted April 12, 2023 The definition doesn't contradict the policy, the only person contradicting the tiering policy is you. This is not a suspect test. If the vote is 3-1 for a quick ban, Nidoqueen needs to be quick banned. It's simple. I don't agree with the decision for it to be quick banned, but it's not my call and it's not yours either. You need to enforce the decision TC made instead of preventing it. Link to comment
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