Luke

Most people defending trio just pointing the obvious, it's true that trio is shit vs some archetypes, but against the other half it's a 100% win condition.
Duels should be decided by skilled players, not by the ones who preffer some easy wins with match up fishing.
 
Trio impact in the half of matchups is just too high compared with other mons, and thats why it should go.

I don't know what the point of comparison is here with adv, there is no focus sash so it is more complicated to put dugtrio freely because it has a more exploitable margin of error, it has less base attack (although that is not so important), it does not have the tools to taking it onto the field as freely as there is now, and of course not having a preview of the team makes it harder for you to recognize the threat you need to eliminate. (Not to mention that you are forced to use cb so it ends up being boost bait for salamence or others). Besides, nothing there is made stronger than it really is thanks to dugtrio 

I meant raising another official dugtrio discussion to finally get it out from our metagame. I can't stress enough how horrible was TC's decision to allow dugtrio to stay

Attaching pics here:
 
 


 
Right now best offer is 60m Pokeyen. I'll prolly accept any offer slightly higher than that and I prefer a deal completely in Pokeyen. 
 
My IGN is NikhilR (which is a longer version of GOAT). My discord is deepbluec.  

We have finally reached a point when, in the very rare situation where Caio is right and Sweet is wrong, some hiveminded people brainlessly side with Sweet, dismissing Caio, not because it is the logical thing to do, not because the argument tells them to do so, but simply because in their minds the argument is less important than whoever claims it. (Tip: It isn't)
 
Weavile IS a Serperior check. I don't care what gimmicks you want to extrapolate, or whatever you want to say or imply or claim. There is proper terminology in the Pokemon world and instead of actually fighting for or against the actual arguments, we loop between semantics where some have no idea what they are talking about. 
 
Thank you VadimEmpoleon for going through it properly. 
 
Regarding Dugtrio, and, most specifically, Gb's post on it. It is true some of Dugtrio's targets can dodge. Some can pivot, others have enough bulk. Yada yada. But you missed the fundamental point. Dugtrio is not supposed to hard switch against them. It is supposed to gain free momenum beforehand so it can then trap its target. There is only one way (Barring the very irrelevant Shed shell), to prevent this, which is to never play the Pokemon before Dugtrio is taken down. Congratulations! Dugtrio has successfully pressured their threats without even being on the field. This is unhealthy. 
 
Or, is it? Magnezone and Tyranitar can, in a way, accomplish the same. So what is the difference between these two and Dugtrio? The amount of targets they possess. The first two have very limited choices, while Dugtrio is able to delete a very significant part of the format. This is the main reason why the Pokemon was chronically banned in most formats. It is very easy and worthy trading a death so Dugtrio can then safely delete the threat you want to get rid of.
 
But what is the unhealthy part? Is it Dugtrio? Is it Arena Trap? The issue with this question is you cannot completely separate the Pokemon from their ability (Or whatever else they possess). Afterall, Diglett and Trapinch are not an issue. Does this mean Arena Trap is inherently unhealthy? Both yes and no. 
 
Since this is probably hard to grasp at first glance, let me find something else: Wonder Guard. Is it broken, or unhealthy? Not necessarily. Afterall, Shedinja is harmless with it. Let's see another harmless Pokemon in OU: Jolteon (Yes, irrelevant enough so it is not even OU). Jolteon with Wonder Guard would be both broken and unhealthy. This is interesting because Jolteon by itself isn't an issue, and neither is Shedinja with the ability. It is the combination of the two that would make it a problem. 
 
Maybe you can argue Arena Trap isn't unhealthy. You can definitely argue Dugtio isn't broken. But you can't simply state that because A and B are not an issue and share an ability with C, then C isn't an issue either.
 
To answer the question. What is the unhealthy part? Not one or the other separately, but simply the combination of the two. 
 
(Yes, I understand Wonder Guard Jolteon doesn't exist. The argument is still the same)
 
 
 
 

They can't beat NoRe so they made another competition

title.. i don't know if it has been responded in the past but it would be a QoL addition to PvP

UT should NEVER be in PSL. It is a joke of a format and the standard would be astronomically low. We already push it a bit by including LC which isn't a real tier anymore. Comparative to what could be a showdown tier, which was at an all time high in terms of level & hype last PSL. (I was against showdown tiers but the last PSL with showdown tiers in really convinced me they belong in the event) 

I like the idea of a BO3 format for a new tier slot:

OU (game 1)
UU or NU (game 2 loser chooses)
game 3 whichever tier hadn't been chosen, rather than a third OU. 
 
OU 
OU
BO3 (win = 1pt)
UU
NU
LC
Dubs
DPP / ORAS / SV (whatever community votes on)

Would be my ideal format, or drop it down to 6 with:

OU
OU
UU
NU
LC
DUBS

UT should NEVER be in PSL. It is a joke of a format and the standard would be astronomically low. We already push it a bit by including LC which isn't a real tier anymore. Comparative to what could be a showdown tier, which was at an all time high in terms of level & hype last PSL. (I was against showdown tiers but the last PSL with showdown tiers in really convinced me they belong in the event) 

I like the idea of a BO3 format for a new tier slot:

OU (game 1)
UU or NU (game 2 loser chooses)
game 3 whichever tier hadn't been chosen, rather than a third OU. 
 
OU 
OU
BO3 (win = 1pt)
UU
NU
LC
Dubs
DPP / ORAS / SV (whatever community votes on)

Would be my ideal format, or drop it down to 6 with:

OU
OU
UU
NU
LC
DUBS

I suggest..
OU OU UU NU Dubs LC OU UT LC DB Reason for no ps: bc it's mmo
Reason for LC DB: only one db in psl seems lonely, isn't it? Roll the lucky star in LC :).   Also LC DB may have better stable enviroment UU/NU/UT, maybe. (Although it's not official, but still fun). And LC community can support the regular tour to test it out. (And getting more data to build next lcpl
Reason for 8 tires: to get tie and drama.

ill take these
and this

UT should NEVER be in PSL. It is a joke of a format and the standard would be astronomically low. We already push it a bit by including LC which isn't a real tier anymore. Comparative to what could be a showdown tier, which was at an all time high in terms of level & hype last PSL. (I was against showdown tiers but the last PSL with showdown tiers in really convinced me they belong in the event) 

I like the idea of a BO3 format for a new tier slot:

OU (game 1)
UU or NU (game 2 loser chooses)
game 3 whichever tier hadn't been chosen, rather than a third OU. 
 
OU 
OU
BO3 (win = 1pt)
UU
NU
LC
Dubs
DPP / ORAS / SV (whatever community votes on)

Would be my ideal format, or drop it down to 6 with:

OU
OU
UU
NU
LC
DUBS

whoops
 

Piss off bro, sometimes I forget stuff

Ok I have a rule in my head to never reply to you but this is just such a misrepresentation of history I have to.
 
People did not randomly hate serp because they were clueless fools way behind your genius caiox. Amoonguss got added, and as did AV and it remedied the problem significantly. We also have Zapdos now too. Answers got added for it, there wasn't some random 'adaptation' gradually over the years... Hard answers were dropped in an update.
 
Not even mentioning an unwallable Pokemon (which serp was pre Amoong outside of garbage like Golbat) which requires you to run an offensive team is quite literally offensive uber lol
 
Please just stop spamming threads with garbage. I won't engage further with you as my braincells don't need any more damage than the damage I've suffered facing these trash matchup fishing dug teams on ladder in this last week...

"3 Support Uber
A Pokémon that in common battle conditions can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep or stall.
 
3. Uncompetitive
Moves or abilities may be banned if they are deemed uncompetitive, based on one of the following aspects.
 
Invalidation based 
Uncompetitive Invalidation based Aspects are those that take away autonomy from players by invalidating, to an unacceptable degree, key elements of gameplay. What may be considered an unacceptable degree is rather subjective, so it’s important to keep in mind that all moves and abilities can be restrictive to a certain extent. "
 
Anyone being honest will concede that Dugtrio fits all 3 descriptions I posted above. It was always kind of like this but never really could trap enough to invalidate certain playstyles, then endeavor dropped and now it can remove pretty much every grounded wall, a few on it's own including Chansey but the issues start when it's used in conjunction with a momentum gaining move like teleport or U-Turn. "Play smart" never use Chansey? Never send Chansey on the field? Never heal Chansey up? Even when Dug "isn't a big deal" it still has an affect by what it makes you not do or not run. 
 
I'd be willing to make a dug team and abuse it + send the replays here if I thought it would do anything, but I don't believe this TC will do literally anything lol so what I'll remain doing is explaining how stupid the decisions are.

Weavile is a good check for serp? Never heard that one before, would love to see the calcs for that one

"3 Support Uber
A Pokémon that in common battle conditions can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep or stall.
 
3. Uncompetitive
Moves or abilities may be banned if they are deemed uncompetitive, based on one of the following aspects.
 
Invalidation based 
Uncompetitive Invalidation based Aspects are those that take away autonomy from players by invalidating, to an unacceptable degree, key elements of gameplay. What may be considered an unacceptable degree is rather subjective, so it’s important to keep in mind that all moves and abilities can be restrictive to a certain extent. "
 
Anyone being honest will concede that Dugtrio fits all 3 descriptions I posted above. It was always kind of like this but never really could trap enough to invalidate certain playstyles, then endeavor dropped and now it can remove pretty much every grounded wall, a few on it's own including Chansey but the issues start when it's used in conjunction with a momentum gaining move like teleport or U-Turn. "Play smart" never use Chansey? Never send Chansey on the field? Never heal Chansey up? Even when Dug "isn't a big deal" it still has an affect by what it makes you not do or not run. 
 
I'd be willing to make a dug team and abuse it + send the replays here if I thought it would do anything, but I don't believe this TC will do literally anything lol so what I'll remain doing is explaining how stupid the decisions are.

"3 Support Uber
A Pokémon that in common battle conditions can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep or stall.
 
3. Uncompetitive
Moves or abilities may be banned if they are deemed uncompetitive, based on one of the following aspects.
 
Invalidation based 
Uncompetitive Invalidation based Aspects are those that take away autonomy from players by invalidating, to an unacceptable degree, key elements of gameplay. What may be considered an unacceptable degree is rather subjective, so it’s important to keep in mind that all moves and abilities can be restrictive to a certain extent. "
 
Anyone being honest will concede that Dugtrio fits all 3 descriptions I posted above. It was always kind of like this but never really could trap enough to invalidate certain playstyles, then endeavor dropped and now it can remove pretty much every grounded wall, a few on it's own including Chansey but the issues start when it's used in conjunction with a momentum gaining move like teleport or U-Turn. "Play smart" never use Chansey? Never send Chansey on the field? Never heal Chansey up? Even when Dug "isn't a big deal" it still has an affect by what it makes you not do or not run. 
 
I'd be willing to make a dug team and abuse it + send the replays here if I thought it would do anything, but I don't believe this TC will do literally anything lol so what I'll remain doing is explaining how stupid the decisions are.

"3 Support Uber
A Pokémon that in common battle conditions can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep or stall.
 
3. Uncompetitive
Moves or abilities may be banned if they are deemed uncompetitive, based on one of the following aspects.
 
Invalidation based 
Uncompetitive Invalidation based Aspects are those that take away autonomy from players by invalidating, to an unacceptable degree, key elements of gameplay. What may be considered an unacceptable degree is rather subjective, so it’s important to keep in mind that all moves and abilities can be restrictive to a certain extent. "
 
Anyone being honest will concede that Dugtrio fits all 3 descriptions I posted above. It was always kind of like this but never really could trap enough to invalidate certain playstyles, then endeavor dropped and now it can remove pretty much every grounded wall, a few on it's own including Chansey but the issues start when it's used in conjunction with a momentum gaining move like teleport or U-Turn. "Play smart" never use Chansey? Never send Chansey on the field? Never heal Chansey up? Even when Dug "isn't a big deal" it still has an affect by what it makes you not do or not run. 
 
I'd be willing to make a dug team and abuse it + send the replays here if I thought it would do anything, but I don't believe this TC will do literally anything lol so what I'll remain doing is explaining how stupid the decisions are.

Consistently, no. There are many viable teams against which Dugtrio can't consistently set up a winning situation.
Uncompetitive applies to moves and abilities. Arena Trap by nature is not necessarily uncompetitive, espcially on mons like Trapinch and Diglett that suck so bad that even AT is not enough to make them viable or interresting. Arena Trap on Dugtrio is another story tho, but does it take autonomy from players to an unacceptable degree, that's arguable.
 
Most OU mons that seem weak to Dugtrio can usually manage just fine: Infernape can u-turn, Metagross/Empoleon have enough bulk, Lucario has priority and Excadrill has Rapid Spin. The mons that can't do anything vs Dugtrio are Magnezone and Ttar. They are doomed if they stay in front of a Dugtrio switching in. Ironanically, Magnezone and Ttar fall pretty much in the same category of uncompetitiveness as Dugtrio. Magnezone Trapping Skarm, Scizor, Empoleon, Ferrothorhn, etc. Ttar having the potential to trap everything with Pursuit, but mainly Chandelure that becomes useless. The difference is that unlike Dugtrio, Magnezone and Ttar have high stats so even when they don't have a specific target to trap, they are rarely dead weight. Dugtrio can totally be dead weight if it doesn't have a target to trap. 

With that being said, Arena Trap may affect more mons than Magnezone and Ttar, but Dugtrio itself doesn't accomplish as much with Arena Trap than Magnezone and Ttar in general. Using Dugtrio to trap Ttar or Magnezone is pretty much fighting fire with fire imo.

Edit: Forgot to mention Volcarona that also gets trapped by Dugtrio and I'll concede that u-turn Volcarona is not super common.

There i would have to correct you. Right after Crobat infiltrator entered the meta, DoubleJ declared that with HA serp was more manageable. Part of the reason that the discussion thread about serperior stopped receiving posts after the HAs was introduced. Also, besides Amoongus and Chandelure, all possible and relevant answers we had back then we still had today. Things like Volca(Nowadays best thing vs Serperior, people forgot at the release lol, no one mentioned it as a possible answer back then(just weezing, which still are +- good on OU today, not that relevant as before but can do the job pretty well still)) and Weavile as good checks. Zapdos i won't even put on the list because we had him for 4 months, and a full year without him.

Gallade is such a joke. It should supersede the devs "no ban" clause and be banned because it's so broken lol, I don't understand? TC agreed to nerf it, nothing changed relevant to counter it now the nerf is undone for no reason.. Sableye is used in OU purely for it..
 
Dugtrio is also uncompetitive nonsense. I'll keep saying both of these things until I'm blue in the face; the lack of action is astonishing.. These god awful uncompetitive Dugtrio teams are a joke. At the very least remove endeavour and sd, it is so easy to remove chansey with dugtrio with these moves (especially endeavour) and just spam a ton of special attackers.. I was very against giving both of these moves to dug and surprise surprise, they are a huge problem.

Gallade is such a joke. It should supersede the devs "no ban" clause and be banned because it's so broken lol, I don't understand? TC agreed to nerf it, nothing changed relevant to counter it now the nerf is undone for no reason.. Sableye is used in OU purely for it..
 
Dugtrio is also uncompetitive nonsense. I'll keep saying both of these things until I'm blue in the face; the lack of action is astonishing.. These god awful uncompetitive Dugtrio teams are a joke. At the very least remove endeavour and sd, it is so easy to remove chansey with dugtrio with these moves (especially endeavour) and just spam a ton of special attackers.. I was very against giving both of these moves to dug and surprise surprise, they are a huge problem.

Gallade is such a joke. It should supersede the devs "no ban" clause and be banned because it's so broken lol, I don't understand? TC agreed to nerf it, nothing changed relevant to counter it now the nerf is undone for no reason.. Sableye is used in OU purely for it..
 
Dugtrio is also uncompetitive nonsense. I'll keep saying both of these things until I'm blue in the face; the lack of action is astonishing.. These god awful uncompetitive Dugtrio teams are a joke. At the very least remove endeavour and sd, it is so easy to remove chansey with dugtrio with these moves (especially endeavour) and just spam a ton of special attackers.. I was very against giving both of these moves to dug and surprise surprise, they are a huge problem.