[NU Suspect Test] Venomoth

[gbwead]

 

 

Venomoth was banned on July 29, 2018. At the time, the combination of Quiver Dance + Sleep Powder/Disable + Tinted Lens coverage move(s) made Venomoth nearly impossible to deal with. 

 

A lot has changed since 2018:

• We now have team preview.
• We now have access to new pokemon in NU (Alakazam, Azumarill, Blaziken, Cloyster, Galvantula, Gigalith, Mantine, Quagsire, Scrafty, Slowbro, Typhlosion, Venusaur and Wobbuffet).
• We now have access to new items like Assault Vest and Eviolite.
• We now have access to new abilities like Vital Spirit, Imposter, Unaware, Infiltrator, etc.

 

The Tier Council believes Venomoth remains a big threat, but hopes NU now has the required tools to handle this menace and the metagame can adapt to its presence. For this reason, the prior ban will be reversed, Venomoth will drop to NU and a suspect test period will be initiated as of June 30^th, 2023. 

 

Throughout the suspect test period, please use this thread to share your thoughts regarding Venomoth in NU. Your input on this matter would be greatly appreciated.

[drewq]

I think sub disable will inevitably prove to still be too much for NU. Nearly every offensive check is invalidated. Non choiced Blaziken rarely has the coverage to deal with it after fire STAB is disabled. Azumarill seems nice at first but Veno laughs at choice users just as easily. 

 

I can think of Gigalith, Golbat, Munchlax (lol?), and AV Magmortar (also lol?) to reliably deal with Veno. 

 

I'd love to introduce more setup options into a tier that doesn't have too many great choices, but I fear Veno will not only be offensive uber but also, in effect, make Gigalith nearly mandatory on most offensive team builds. 

 

edit: Added Golbat, duh. U-Turn sets will actually lose still...

Edited June 29, 2023 by drewq

[BeluMEX]

5 minutes ago, drewq said:

I think sub disable will inevitably prove to still be too much for NU. Nearly every offensive check is invalidated. Non choiced Blaziken rarely has the coverage to deal with it after fire STAB is disabled. Azumarill seems nice at first but Veno laughs at choice users just as easily. 

 

I can think of Gigalith, Munchlax (lol?), and AV Magmortar (also lol?) to reliably deal with Veno. 

 

I'd love to introduce more setup options into a tier that doesn't have too many great choices, but I fear Veno will not only be offensive uber but also, in effect, make Gigalith nearly mandatory on most team builds. 

Probably Aggron | Scyther Scarf | Av or Scarf Charizard | KlingKlang | Careful Braviary | Careful Golbat with Hidden Ability | Careful Dragonair at +2, it's a 2HKO. You can do something about it [+4 252 SpA Life Orb Venomoth Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Dragonair: 140-165 (83.3 - 98.2%)] | there's also Munchlax | Av Escavalier could be an option as well.  

 

You have many good alternatives, but 90% are trash with the other strong monster in the tier. Just play HO or 6 walls. If you decide to go balanced, pray that Venomoth doesn't come out if you've covered the other powerful threats, or hope that your opponent loses their connection.

[Frag]

This thing is too strong imo, it just need only one move to hit hard all the tier, also has the ablity to disable his counter by sleeping it, and its faster than blazi, which seem to be the only solid phy scarf in the tier, so the only option left to wall or kill it after dance are some bad scarf mons or non viable av/eviolite stuff

[Sargeste]

I agree with all the replies in here. Don't feel like there's much more to add.

 

Munchlax is the single best counter to this thing. That should say something itself.

[Godhelll]

The pokemon has no place in the tier currently. If a test is launched, it won't take very long before he gets banned again.

 

But at least it will have allowed the pokemon to see the tier again for a few moments, after all these years :c

 

 

[ChronoRike]

14 hours ago, gbwead said:

 

 

Venomoth was banned on July 29, 2018. At the time, the combination of Quiver Dance + Sleep Powder/Disable + Tinted Lens coverage move(s) made Venomoth nearly impossible to deal with. 

 

A lot has changed since 2018:

• We now have team preview.
• We now have access to new pokemon in NU (Alakazam, Azumarill, Blaziken, Cloyster, Galvantula, Gigalith, Mantine, Quagsire, Scrafty, Slowbro, Typhlosion, Venusaur and Wobbuffet).
• We now have access to new items like Assault Vest and Eviolite.
• We now have access to new abilities like Vital Spirit, Imposter, Unaware, Infiltrator, etc.

 

The Tier Council believes Venomoth remains a big threat, but hopes NU now has the required tools to handle this menace and the metagame can adapt to its presence. For this reason, the prior ban will be reversed, Venomoth will drop to NU and a suspect test period will be initiated as of June 30^th, 2023. 

 

Throughout the suspect test period, please use this thread to share your thoughts regarding Venomoth in NU. Your input on this matter would be greatly appreciated.

tbh we can have him the test but we didnt count we still have the best screen user + venomoth in the tier it gonna be hard af to handle it but as we did we many cringe stuff ppl gonna find it a legit pivot to wall it like hariyama av or stuff like magmortar av scyther scarf to revenge kill it with a u turn user etc, so not much to talk about this just lets see what ppl run in ladder then talk about it(said by someone cryied a lot for this thing coming to nu lmao)

 

 

Edited June 30, 2023 by ChronoRike

[DoubleJ]

[NU] has come a long way, although Venomoth still remains an outstanding force given its access to Tinted Lens. Despite Gigalith moving down, there really isn't much remaining to stop this behemoth.

 

The most common set will likely be the following:

 

Venomoth - Tinted Lens (Black Sludge)

- Quiver Dance

- Bug Buzz

- Substitute

- Disable/Sleep Powder/Giga Drain

 

At +1, it's speed is better than most common [NU] Choice Scarf users, including Blaziken, and it resists the most common priority typing in the tier (Fighting via Mach Punch). The addition of Assault Gear (AG) means a +1 Bug Buzz only goes so far, and given Assault Gear users require a pure-attacking set, Disable can only function to remove the most effective attack. Common (AG) users such as Eelektross, Druddigon, Escavalier, and Hitmontop are all primed to stand up to Venomoth, except for opposing Sleep Powder, or the unpredictable coverage move.

 

New fun things to also consider are CB Azumarill with Aqua Jet, Unburden Sceptile with Acrobatics, Speed Boost Ninjask with Acrobatics, Infiltrator Golbat, Magic Bounce Xatu, and of course the lord and savior of all players hoping to not get swept by set-up: Choice Scarf Imposter Ditto.

 

Overall, Venomoth is still big and bad, but this test is definitely needed. If it proves too much, it'll get sent back to the depths of BL2 but it's time to give it a shot.

[PoseidonWrath]

If Alakazam got a chance to be tested in NU, surely Venomoth gets a chance after 5 years.

[gbwead]

Pretty bad win rate so far, but let's wait and see.

[Bertolfoso]

51 minutes ago, gbwead said:

Pretty bad win rate so far, but let's wait and see.

Not really fair to talk when it's been used only 16 times, of which many were in a team using murkrow and magmar. Wayy too small sample size

 

Edited June 30, 2023 by Bertolfoso

[DoubleJ]

1 minute ago, Bertolfoso said:

Not really fair to talk when it's been used only 16 times, of which many were in a team using murkrow and magmar. Wayy to small sample size

 

Eviolite ez.

[gbwead]

1 minute ago, Bertolfoso said:

Not really fair to talk when it's been used only 16 times, of which many were in a team using murkrow and magmar. Wayy to small sample size

 

It's the only usage we have so far. My point is that there is no reason to panic.

[RysPicz]

6 minutes ago, gbwead said:

It's the only usage we have so far. My point is that there is no reason to panic.

+1. Give it a test, it's been a fooking 5 years. Concerns are totally valid, considering Venomoth's movepool and stats, but let's at least give it a try, it doesn't look as stupidly broken as Venusaur.

[Sargeste]

 

Pretty bad win rate so far, no reason to panic!

[Munya]

This thread is not going to become a post usage every 6 hours thread to try and prove a point before that starts happening.

[Huargensy]

4 hours ago, Sargeste said:

 

Pretty bad win rate so far, no reason to panic!

It was my trapinch troll team, it's still too early to draw conclusions

 

 

[Munya]

For real, keep it on topic, tier council or not.

[MamaWally]

I've been using Venomoth in NU and figured I would share my thoughts. For the record, my set is listed below (Timid 252 sp atk, 252 speed, 4 sp def). I am aware of the Sub+Disable set, but have not used it, so I will not spend too much time on it. Sorry for the long post, but I include some calcs.

 

 

Venomoth actually has a good amount of mons that can beat it 1 on 1, if both are at 100%, even with a Quiver Dance up. This list is not 100% extensive, just the ones I've found that handle it best.

 

Gigalith:

+1 252 SpA Venomoth Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gigalith in Sand: 51-60 (26.5 - 31.2%) -- 6.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Gigalith Rock Blast (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Venomoth: 168-204 (115.8 - 140.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

Munchlax: 

+1 252 SpA Venomoth Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Munchlax: 49-58 (20.2 - 23.9%) -- guaranteed 5HKO

Munchlax uses Whirlwind or something, maybe Body Slam paralysis. But it can survive.

 

Xatu: 

+1 252 SpA Venomoth Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 156+ SpD Assault Vest Xatu: 60-72 (34.8 - 41.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO 

100 SpA Xatu Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Venomoth: 146-174 (100.6 - 120%) -- guaranteed OHKO 

Using Xatu spread of 188 HP, 100 Sp Atk, 220 Speed Timid (to outspeed +0 Moth and OHKO with Psyshock) with no AV

+1 252 SpA Venomoth Bug Buzz vs. 188 HP / 0 SpD Xatu: 120-142 (73.1 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Venomoth Bug Buzz vs. 188 HP / 0 SpD Xatu: 156-185 (95.1 - 112.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO 

100 SpA Xatu Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Venomoth: 146-174 (100.6 - 120%) -- guaranteed OHKO 

 

AV Honchkrow:

+1 252 SpA Venomoth Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Honchkrow: 100-118 (57.1 - 67.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 

252 Atk Honchkrow Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Venomoth: 300-354 (206.8 - 244.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO 

 

Golbat: 

+1 252 SpA Venomoth Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Golbat: 70-84 (38.4 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+1 252 SpA Venomoth Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Golbat: 102-120 (56 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 

0 Atk Golbat Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Venomoth: 170-204 (117.2 - 140.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

With that being said, I am still in favor of Venomoth remaining banned. Out of this list, the only mons I see being good checks to Venomoth are Gigalith and Golbat. Munchlax can only stall the inevitable for so long, Xatu would prefer to run either a more offensive or a more defensive EV spread, not this weird hybrid spread just to beat Venomoth, and I just personally don't think AV Honchkrow is any good besides countering Venomoth and Venusaur (maybe?). Out of the two checks I mentioned above, Golbat still loses to the set I use as long as Venomoth can hit its Sleep Powder and it is not a 1-turn sleep (need SR for bulky Golbat). Gigalith is the one true counter to Venomoth that can still get worn down over time, can still be put to sleep, and will soon be UU because Shaymin got banned from UU. If a balance or offensive team does not have Gigalith, all it takes is one Quiver Dance and Venomoth can sweep. Venomoth struggles a bit more against offense because it is harder to dance, but if it gets dancing, it will destroy everything, since it outspeeds the best scarfer in the tier, Blaziken, at +1. Even if Venomoth does not sweep, it still dents the entire tier and has access to Sleep Powder, rendering most of its switchins obsolete. Here are some calcs for some of the most high usage mons in NU at the moment.

 

Gligar:

+1 252 SpA Tinted Lens Venomoth Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 6 SpD Eviolite Gligar: 84-100 (48.8 - 58.1%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO  

Azumarill:

+1 252 SpA Tinted Lens Venomoth Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 108-128 (52.1 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 

 252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Venomoth: 94-112 (64.8 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

Blaziken: 

+1 252 SpA Venomoth Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Blaziken: 158-188 (101.9 - 121.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO 

Eelektross:

+1 252 SpA Venomoth Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Eelektross: 72-85 (37.5 - 44.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

It takes one of the most bulky special mons in the tier (with its standard set), AV Eelektross, to not get 2HKO by +1 Venomoth. Even then, Eelektross gets chipped very easily and needs to be at 100% to have a chance of beating Venomoth. In addition, Venomoth is just bulky enough to survive the strongest immediate priority in the tier, Choice Band Azumarill Aqua Jet. With the abundance of setup opportunities against balance teams, in addition to Venomoth's Sleep Powder and team support such as Dual Screens, Venomoth is very likely to get a Quiver Dance at some point. NU as a tier does not have very many bulky mons that can both dish out the damage necessary to kill Venomoth and stay healthy over the duration of a match. The checks to Venomoth will get worn down over time, and then Venomoth has an easy time cleaning up. Other checks to Venomoth are just suboptimal sets that only exist because this thing is in the tier and needs an answer. To make matters even worse, Venomoth is immune to Toxic, one of the easiest ways to wear down setup sweepers. For that reason, I believe Venomoth should be banned from NU again. It was fun to test it, but it is still just too strong and has just enough utility to push it over the edge.

 

Tl;dr: Please ban it. There are only 2, maybe 3 realistic switchins to this thing (Gigalith, Golbat, maybe Xatu), and 2 of them can be put to sleep by Sleep Powder.

[drewq]

Any update on this thing? 

[caioxlive13]

On 7/17/2023 at 5:35 PM, drewq said:

Any update on this thing? 

Let's see... 12,84% usage, 56,47% win rate... What suprised me is the fact that Electrode is not one of main allies from this mon, because he is already annoying to deal once buffed, screens giving it almost a free turn to buff is way too strong.

What i noticed comparing usage: Ditto's usage rised, Alakazam usage dropped. Suprisingly, Unburden Sceptile is not being used even if gb mentioned it as a potential check. Also Ninjask have half of usage of last season. Also, Druddigon come from 0,25% usage to 12,82%.

I stopped playing NU when it started to take same path of UU and become a slower tier, but a mon is definitively broken when their presence shift a lot of mons like that.

Edited July 19, 2023 by caioxlive13

[drewq]

43 minutes ago, caioxlive13 said:

Let's see... 12,84% usage, 56,47% win rate... What suprised me is the fact that Electrode is not one of main allies from this mon, because he is already annoying to deal once buffed, screens giving it almost a free turn to buff is way too strong.

What you will notice is Sableye as one of its top teammates because it is a much better screen setter than Electrode. 

[caioxlive13]

2 minutes ago, drewq said:

What you will notice is Sableye as one of its top teammates because it is a much better screen setter than Electrode. 

Both can really set screens nice as almost no one pass them. Difference is: Sableye can't be stopped from setting screens due to prankster acess and prankster immunity, but can't switch confortablly to Venomoth, while Electrode has ways to grant safety switches, exploding itself or using volt switch, with cost of being a target to prankster users.

Edited July 19, 2023 by caioxlive13

[LifeStyleNORE]

At first glance I thought testing Venomoth was a mistake, but then we had all those UU mons moving down and it seemed like a good time to see how Moth would fit into all this new mess. Turns out it's not as strong as I thought it would be, but it's still definitely a threat you should worry about when teambuilding. Luckily you can just slap a Gigalith on a team and call it a day. I just don't like how screens are getting more popular with things like Scrafty, Moth and Azuma running around, feels like I'm back to watching 2020 UU or whenever that team was popular there. Personally I think Scrafty is a bigger problem than Venomoth though. I'll defo keep an eye on it closely to figure out if it's too annoying for the tier.

[DoubleJ]

It's been almost a month since my last post and I'm still torn. Amazing offensive sweeper but needs some support to consistently pull it off (screens, trap). Watching matches and playing a bit, I think it is OK to keep around if usage allows.