December 2023-Movement Discussion

[Munya]

Second month of the season, usage cutoffs of 2.5 to go down, 6.0 to go up. 

 

To UU from OU:

Entei 

 

That's it for this month, feel free to discuss whatever you feel needs discussing within the tiers. As usual offtopic posts will be removed.

[Imperial]

Once again thank you @gbwead and TC for helping these movements become more stable

Edited November 25, 2023 by Imperial

[caioxlive13]

Expecting that already. I doubt Entei would be falling down if all people could easily afford one and not only the top 0,5% of the ladder. 

This is pure theory, but is more likely to devs release more of those legends. Why not make them an exception for the usage system, at least when it haven't appeared for 2 entire cycles? In that case, the legends if below cutoff wouldn't drop normally, but instead voted if it could fall.

[Munya]

19 minutes ago, caioxlive13 said:

Expecting that already. I doubt Entei would be falling down if all people could easily afford one and not only the top 0,5% of the ladder. 

This is pure theory, but is more likely to devs release more of those legends. Why not make them an exception for the usage system, at least when it haven't appeared for 2 entire cycles? In that case, the legends if below cutoff wouldn't drop normally, but instead voted if it could fall.

No, and please don't derail this thread with more of the top .5% players thing you keep pulling out of nowhere, they are not that expensive. I expect this to be the only post from you about this matter.

[caioxlive13]

okay, fine.

Well, nothing to discuss about movements, all we have left is the Unbans done by the latest updates(Aka Draco Meteor Hydreigon), any update on that?

[Imperial]

2 hours ago, caioxlive13 said:

okay, fine.

Well, nothing to discuss about movements, all we have left is the Unbans done by the latest updates(Aka Draco Meteor Hydreigon), any update on that?

Stop derailing this discussion, if you have any generic comments just go to the OU Discussion section. Nobody has addressed Draco Meteor really being a concern from what I'm aware.

Edited November 25, 2023 by Imperial

[caioxlive13]

3 hours ago, Imperial said:

Stop derailing this discussion, if you have any generic comments just go to the OU Discussion section. Nobody has addressed Draco Meteor really being a concern from what I'm aware.

First of all, i'm asking for Draco Hydrei because no one has commented it for a while. This is not an generic comment, i'm asking if this s*** will be allowed on OU or the TC is going to ban it. Transparency is good, if you don't like is your choice.

[Munya]

If you think it should be banned you should bring some arguments to the table, as it stands nobody has mentioned anything by it.  He is right in that generalized statements contribute nothing.  As far as we are aware, at least I anyways, its fine. Nobody has said anything about what or why its a problem if it is. 

[Stokes]

Its fine.

[mxdzzz]

Entei will go nu, yes!

[DoubleJ]

The real question, will arcanine ever be played outside dubs again?!

[caioxlive13]

2 hours ago, Munya said:

If you think it should be banned you should bring some arguments to the table, as it stands nobody has mentioned anything by it.

Exactly by that i'm asking. Hydreigon is not getting a new gen move, it are regaining a move that in the past make it banned, and are being re-tested. The reason behind why i'm asking is because some people on the post that announced it coming back(not much people because majority of them was focused on the 1,4x Sharpness Gallade) was worried about being a problem. I can't argument for the same reason i can't tell if Suicune, Raikou or Entei is broken or not: I haven't see for myself on pratice if they're broken because i haven't faced them yet. I'm asking to know actions TC is planning to make on the mon, if a Ban is even being considered or TC is ok with that and let the mon on OU.

With that: ("The reason behind why i'm asking is because some people on the post that announced it coming back(not much people because majority of them was focused on the 1,4x Sharpness Gallade) was worried about being a problem.") being said, i want to ask @VadimEmpoleon , one of the players that was worried with that, to voice their opinion after 1 month and a half with the changes live to voice their opinion about Hydreigon, and if are really broken as he claimed to be on the post that was announced it would come back.

If need to refresh your memory, there is what you posted, copy and pasted:

Spoiler

Post 1:

Adding Draco Meteor Hydreigon doesn't make any sense even if it's a test, it was already too strong without access to Nasty Plot, it can just spam Draco Meteor and it will hit hard any mon even if it is Metagross, Magnezone, Scizor or any other steel type, Chansey and Blissey can easily be dealt with Nasty Plot. With access to Nasty Plot, Superpower, Flamethrower and a lot of other useful moves like Roost or Stealth Rock it can be at the same time too strong as a sweeper and a good utility mon. Now we will get another test (probably for a lot of time just like Gallade last time) and will have to wait until the tier is fixed again.

Post 2, reply from one of my posts:

 

Hydreigon can be revenged killed easily but it can kill anything just spamming Draco Meteor, and the few things that can survive it, like Chansey, can be eliminated with other moves like Nasty Plot. It has a very good movepool and it can't be trapped with Dugtrio or Tyranitar/Weavile since Pursuit won't be a big problem for it, it can just switch and kill another mon the next time it comes to the field.

 

Some calcs with Timid Life Orb Hydreigon:

 

Scizor: 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Scizor: 84-100 (57.5 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Magnezone: 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Magnezone: 77-90 (53.1 - 62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Metagross: 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Metagross: 77-90 (49.6 - 58%) -- 65.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

AV Mienshao: 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Mienshao: 94-110 (54.6 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Chansey with Draco Meteor: 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 90-107 (25.2 - 29.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Chansey with Focus Blast: 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 112-133 (31.3 - 37.2%) -- 71% chance to 3HKO

Gallade: 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gallade: 125-148 (87.4 - 103.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

Multiscale Dragonite: 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 142-168 (85 - 100.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

Conkeldurr: 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Conkeldurr: 196-231 (108.8 - 128.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

AV Amoonguss: 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Amoonguss: 78-94 (35.2 - 42.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

7 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

The real question, will arcanine ever be played outside dubs again?!

He is broken for NU? If is yes, then for sure, it will be used only on Doubles, UU people will use 100% entei.

Edited November 25, 2023 by caioxlive13

[VadimEmpoleon]

10 minutes ago, caioxlive13 said:

With that: ("The reason behind why i'm asking is because some people on the post that announced it coming back(not much people because majority of them was focused on the 1,4x Sharpness Gallade) was worried about being a problem.") being said, i want to ask @VadimEmpoleon , one of the players that was worried with that, to voice their opinion after 1 month and a half with the changes live to voice their opinion about Hydreigon, and if are really broken as he claimed to be on the post that was announced it would come back.

If need to refresh your memory, there is what you posted, copy and pasted:

  Hide contents

Post 1:

Adding Draco Meteor Hydreigon doesn't make any sense even if it's a test, it was already too strong without access to Nasty Plot, it can just spam Draco Meteor and it will hit hard any mon even if it is Metagross, Magnezone, Scizor or any other steel type, Chansey and Blissey can easily be dealt with Nasty Plot. With access to Nasty Plot, Superpower, Flamethrower and a lot of other useful moves like Roost or Stealth Rock it can be at the same time too strong as a sweeper and a good utility mon. Now we will get another test (probably for a lot of time just like Gallade last time) and will have to wait until the tier is fixed again.

Post 2, reply from one of my posts:

 

Hydreigon can be revenged killed easily but it can kill anything just spamming Draco Meteor, and the few things that can survive it, like Chansey, can be eliminated with other moves like Nasty Plot. It has a very good movepool and it can't be trapped with Dugtrio or Tyranitar/Weavile since Pursuit won't be a big problem for it, it can just switch and kill another mon the next time it comes to the field.

 

Some calcs with Timid Life Orb Hydreigon:

 

Scizor: 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Scizor: 84-100 (57.5 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Magnezone: 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Magnezone: 77-90 (53.1 - 62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Metagross: 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Metagross: 77-90 (49.6 - 58%) -- 65.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

AV Mienshao: 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Mienshao: 94-110 (54.6 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Chansey with Draco Meteor: 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 90-107 (25.2 - 29.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Chansey with Focus Blast: 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 112-133 (31.3 - 37.2%) -- 71% chance to 3HKO

Gallade: 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gallade: 125-148 (87.4 - 103.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

Multiscale Dragonite: 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 142-168 (85 - 100.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

Conkeldurr: 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Conkeldurr: 196-231 (108.8 - 128.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

AV Amoonguss: 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Amoonguss: 78-94 (35.2 - 42.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

It is still broken because there is no safe switch in, NP Hydreigon with Draco Meteor and Focus Blast or Focus Energy Hydreigon with Draco Meteor and Superpower can sweep almost everything (if not everything), the only way to deal with it is killing it with something faster or with priority. Choice Specs Hydreigon is also dangerous since it has few counters, it can even OHKO Jolly AV Mienshao. It can also run Choice Scarf so you can't even attack it with something faster safely if you don't know its item.

 

I have to say that I didn't play OU much these months so I didn't face many Hydreigons, the ones I fought against most of them didn't have a fighting move or were the Scarf variant so they were not that hard to stop. I also tried to use teams that were not too weak to Hydreigon.

 

This and the fact that many people use Hyper Offense teams which can easily revenge kill Hydreigon is probably why it didn't get the attention it deserves. I guess it will just become another overcentralizing mon to deal with, so many games will still be decided by the match up.

[epicdavenport]

On 11/25/2023 at 5:16 PM, mxdzzz said:

Entei will go nu, yes!

Maybe not. Arcanine could be the one pushed out. Arcs most used set is choice band and Entei competes against it pretty hard. The biggest differences between the two is Arc has close combat and a better defensive movepool. Entei has higher attack, speed, and bulk.

[Necroze]

Enteinine

[Munya]

Entei is now in UU, have fun with your Legendary DOG