[OU Discussion] Dugtrio

[gbwead]

4 hours ago, Bertolfoso said:

just cus ppl dont use stuff it doesnt mean they are not good lol diglett could def be used in lower tiers

Mons get banned based on facts, not assumptions. The fact that Diglett is not NU or UU by usage is more than enough to demonstrate that it's not something to be concerned about.

[UTR]

The next update is coming 

[LiveLaughHate]

I'm a relative fence sitter on this topic although I do think the advent of endeavor definitely skews dugtrio too far into the unhealthy category. With that being said wouldn't it make more sense to ban Arena Trap than Dugtrio itself? Arena Trap seems to be the root of all evil in a lot of your minds and the main factor in why people consider dugtrio uncompetitive as it removes peoples ability to proactively switch. To me it makes more sense to ban arena trap to avoid any possible future diglett shenanigans than to ban dugtrio which could potentially have a niche in NU outside its toxic gameplay.

[Axelgor]

I've always viewed trapping mechanics as uncompetitive, especially dugtrio and wobbuffet, since it limits many teambuilds on what they can and can't use. Hence I was in favor of a ban. The purpose of this discussion is to convince the TC members who felt it was not banworthy, that it is in fact not suitable or healthy for OU in its current state. During the last dugtrio thread, its movepool update was still relatively new, and people were clearly divided on whether endeavor would be viable or not. Over the last few months, I would guess most people can now see it's an issue, and just another reason why it's not fit for the tier.

[caioxlive13]

6 hours ago, gbwead said:

Mons get banned based on facts, not assumptions. The fact that Diglett is not NU or UU by usage is more than enough to demonstrate that it's not something to be concerned about.

Well, like i sayed on Hydrei's thread when people sayed that Empo was good in OU and by that Hydrei had decent answers:

"If a mon is not in a tier by usage, there is reasons for that. He could be genuinely bad in a tier or just outclassed" (Now Empoleon is OU by usage but back then wasn't). The whole concept on tiering by usage is that: The best mons are more used and get to be placed on the highest tiers. 

Digglet's case exemplify that. If people claimed it would be as broken as dugtrio and replace it once it gets banned, then there would be people using it already on lower tiers where he is not present. And he is bad, even for untiered(Where he only gets a small niche but that niche gets vanished if you play a Untiered tour and they determine a banlist because 100% chance that Emboar would be on that BL.) 

Edited May 13 by caioxlive13

[benwallacehof]

I agree with the aboveposters that Arena Trap should be reviewed, not just Dugtrio + AT. Arena Trap limits counterplay considerably because you can’t switch out. The actual counterplay to Arena Trap with many grounded pokemon amounts to the following – run Shed Shell, be behind a substitute, or simply do not get a KO with that pokemon to allow Dugtrio to come in. As you can see, this is really forcing you to build suboptimally or play a certain way just so that one of your key pokemon does not get trapped. The mindgames that you have to play with when using Dugtrio makes it an unhealthy presence in the metagame. this is different than Magnet Pull mind games, which do not affect every grounded pokemon but rather a handful of steels. The underlining issue with Dugtrio is it does not have a counter by the true definition of the word. You may pack a Gliscor on your team and a Dugtrio is out on the field? Go to your Gliscor. You can't. 

 

If the other arena trap mons see as little usage as the other posters claim, what would be the harm in a blanket Arena Trap ban? They don't see usage anyways, right?

FWIW I think banning dugtrio and not AT is just delaying the inevitable, which is digglet/trapinch sliding in and functioning as a trapper for any team that needs specific threats gone.

 

If nothing else, what does this metagame have that is different that makes Arena Trap healthy/ok to use that other metas don't? In Gen6 and 7 Dug was banned with and without the attack buff and didn't have access to endeavor (under the blanket of Arena trap that was banned entirely)

 

What is the argument FOR keeping it? How does Arena Trap/Dugtrio keep the meta healthy? 

Edited May 13 by benwallacehof

[ArtOfKilling]

Honestly, I don't want to spend time arguing with opinions that don't match mine. Respect to all the opinions that have been listed above.
All I can simply say is that anything other than banning Arena Trap is a waste of time and a repeat of the previous Dugtrio post, where people kept going back and forth in the same circle.

I personally see the decision as simple and easy, unless others have a say in keeping the meta as disgusting as it is. Then it's fair. The only reason why OU is popular is because it's the dominant tier in the ladder. But in terms of attracting newer players and understanding how to team build for a variety of playstyles isn't easy. I am honestly lost for words when discussing OU with players who haven't been here prior to hidden abilities. The meta was much simpler and easier to understand. Then came PP nerfs and hidden ability introductions that weren't managed properly. Then the sudden, unexplainable addition of Gallade to this day, and the legendary adaptation meta.

 

When we discuss Dugtrio, we have to consider the limitations that come with it. We can't simply ignore how Dugtrio forces certain selections and Pokémon to be used in the team-building process to avoid getting annoyed by Dugtrio. Do I have to keep playing Chandelure to handle it alongside its common partners? And be fearful of another matchup where Tyranitar can potentially pursuite me? Or use Volcarona to handle Serperior, then get trapped by Dugtrio?

[Dugtrio traps setup sweepers that counter its walls like Serperior/Porygon "Volcarona" and traps Espeon answers "Tyranitar" to allow Espeon to sweep.]

There's much to say about Dugtrio, but as the quote says, "Less is more."
 

[Huargensy]

ban

[VadimEmpoleon]

I have to agree with everyone who wants Arena Trap ban instead of just a Dugtrio+Arena Trap ban. Neither Dugtrio, Diglett or Trapinch are too OP but the ability is completely uncompetitive by design, Magnet Pull is an ability that is completely fine because it can trap a few mons and you can prepare for it, Arena Trap on the other hand allows its users to trap a lot of mons regardless of if they can delete them or not, there are many situations in which Arena Trap will force you to lose a concrete mon without even letting you choose which one you want to lose, if it was just few mons like Tyranitar or Magnezone that suffer because of this ability it would be fine but it is a lot more than that, Dugtrio can delete many mons that are not at 100% thanks to its speed and its barely mentioned, Breloom can be deleted with Aerial Ace, Gallade regardless of item can be deleted by Dugtrio with CB+EQ or Sash+EQ+Sucker Punch, Zapdos can have trouble if it uses Smack Down, a weakened Garchomp can be deleted easily by a CB Dugtrio, Chansey can be deleted with Endeavor+EQ, and I could name a lot of other examples and none of them can be prevented, the only way to prevent is not having those mons in the field, this requires almost no skill and is completely uncompetitive, even if the situations where Dugtrio can work were much lower it would still rely in this uncompetitive aspect of Arena Trap, same thing applies for Diglett and Trapinch, even if they are not good for regular use, if they get to be useful it's because of this uncompetitive ability, Diglett getting to OHKO a Blaziken that was locked previously in another move is not fine, Trapinch getting to kill Gigalith is not fine. Regardless of the viability of Trapinch and Diglett this uncompetitive ability has no place in Singles.

[caioxlive13]

11 hours ago, VadimEmpoleon said:

I have to agree with everyone who wants Arena Trap ban instead of just a Dugtrio+Arena Trap ban. Neither Dugtrio, Diglett or Trapinch are too OP but the ability is completely uncompetitive by design, Magnet Pull is an ability that is completely fine because it can trap a few mons and you can prepare for it, Arena Trap on the other hand allows its users to trap a lot of mons regardless of if they can delete them or not, there are many situations in which Arena Trap will force you to lose a concrete mon without even letting you choose which one you want to lose, if it was just few mons like Tyranitar or Magnezone that suffer because of this ability it would be fine but it is a lot more than that, Dugtrio can delete many mons that are not at 100% thanks to its speed and its barely mentioned, Breloom can be deleted with Aerial Ace, Gallade regardless of item can be deleted by Dugtrio with CB+EQ or Sash+EQ+Sucker Punch, Zapdos can have trouble if it uses Smack Down, a weakened Garchomp can be deleted easily by a CB Dugtrio, Chansey can be deleted with Endeavor+EQ, and I could name a lot of other examples and none of them can be prevented, the only way to prevent is not having those mons in the field, this requires almost no skill and is completely uncompetitive, even if the situations where Dugtrio can work were much lower it would still rely in this uncompetitive aspect of Arena Trap, same thing applies for Diglett and Trapinch, even if they are not good for regular use, if they get to be useful it's because of this uncompetitive ability, Diglett getting to OHKO a Blaziken that was locked previously in another move is not fine, Trapinch getting to kill Gigalith is not fine. Regardless of the viability of Trapinch and Diglett this uncompetitive ability has no place in Singles.

I had to disagree and i'm pointing out why with some quotes.

On 5/12/2024 at 11:12 PM, gbwead said:

Absoutely not, this is so untrue imo. If Dugtrio gets banned, Diglett will try to take over and will fail miserably. It would not even be close to viable. Diglett has already access to Endeavor and doesn't see any usage in NU or UU, so why would it suddenly be banworthy in OU.

People hate AT so much that they will blindly believe anything that will justifty an AT ban. There is no justification or argument that can justify such a ban. There is 0 issue with AT. Dugtrio is the only pokemon with AT that is deemed problematic. Not Trapinch. Not Diglett. Only Dugtrio.

@pachima's argument, can't quote normally cause is on an Archived thread.

Quote

Regarding Dugtrio, and, most specifically, Gb's post on it. It is true some of Dugtrio's targets can dodge. Some can pivot, others have enough bulk. Yada yada. But you missed the fundamental point. Dugtrio is not supposed to hard switch against them. It is supposed to gain free momenum beforehand so it can then trap its target. There is only one way (Barring the very irrelevant Shed shell), to prevent this, which is to never play the Pokemon before Dugtrio is taken down. Congratulations! Dugtrio has successfully pressured their threats without even being on the field. This is unhealthy. 

 

Or, is it? Magnezone and Tyranitar can, in a way, accomplish the same. So what is the difference between these two and Dugtrio? The amount of targets they possess. The first two have very limited choices, while Dugtrio is able to delete a very significant part of the format. This is the main reason why the Pokemon was chronically banned in most formats. It is very easy and worthy trading a death so Dugtrio can then safely delete the threat you want to get rid of.

 

But what is the unhealthy part? Is it Dugtrio? Is it Arena Trap? The issue with this question is you cannot completely separate the Pokemon from their ability (Or whatever else they possess). Afterall, Diglett and Trapinch are not an issue. Does this mean Arena Trap is inherently unhealthy? Both yes and no. 

 

Since this is probably hard to grasp at first glance, let me find something else: Wonder Guard. Is it broken, or unhealthy? Not necessarily. Afterall, Shedinja is harmless with it. Let's see another harmless Pokemon in OU: Jolteon (Yes, irrelevant enough so it is not even OU). Jolteon with Wonder Guard would be both broken and unhealthy. This is interesting because Jolteon by itself isn't an issue, and neither is Shedinja with the ability. It is the combination of the two that would make it a problem. 

 

Maybe you can argue Arena Trap isn't unhealthy. You can definitely argue Dugtio isn't broken. But you can't simply state that because A and B are not an issue and share an ability with C, then C isn't an issue either.

 

To answer the question. What is the unhealthy part? Not one or the other separately, but simply the combination of the two. 

 

(Yes, I understand Wonder Guard Jolteon doesn't exist. The argument is still the same)

 

Edited May 14 by caioxlive13

[VadimEmpoleon]

@caioxlive13none of those quotes mention anything regarding its uncompetitive aspect, if you want to disagree simply say that you think its competitive, fair and skilled to delete a mon with no counterplay for it other than just not using that mon, Trapinch and Diglett can trap and delete many more mons and in a more unexpected way than Magnet Pull users do.

 

I am not going to discuss a possible uber support or unhealthy aspect of Dugtrio because its much easier to state the obvious uncompetitive aspect of Arena Trap.

[SweeTforU]

Don't Ban.

[RysPicz]

3 minutes ago, SweeTforU said:

Don't Ban.

be silent

[caioxlive13]

4 hours ago, VadimEmpoleon said:

@caioxlive13none of those quotes mention anything regarding its uncompetitive aspect

Yea, but it exemplifies on the pachima's argument more detailed, that even with the ability broken a mon can be harmless. Wonder Guard is the most broken ability ever made by far, but is balanced because the mon that has it is simply terrible even with it.

 

On the Digglet and Trapinch, the fact that both are not UU or NU by usage as Gb mentioned later, say that both are harmless even having a broken ability, if they wasn't then UU and NU players would be exploiting them, since on those metas there is no concorrence with dugtrio and far less answers than OU. The problem is especifically Dugtrio with AT because he has a broken ability and what is required to abuse of it.

 

There is degree of uncompetitiveness to say if a thing should be banned or not despite being uncompetitive. Serp with Contrary + defog fits onto one uncompetitive category, but is in a acceptable degree. Magnet Pull fits into being Uncompetitive, but again, is in a acceptable degree. Dugtrio AT is not in a acceptable degree and that's why we're here bringing it to discussion.

[gbwead]

10 minutes ago, caioxlive13 said:

Serp with Contrary + defog fits onto one uncompetitive category, but is in a acceptable degree.

LMAO

[caioxlive13]

5 minutes ago, gbwead said:

LMAO

Luck-Based isn't a uncompetitive category? On Dubs it can intentionally raise it's evasion aiming defog against her with an ally.

[VadimEmpoleon]

11 minutes ago, caioxlive13 said:

Yea, but it exemplifies on the pachima's argument more detailed, that even with the ability broken a mon can be harmless. Wonder Guard is the most broken ability ever made by far, but is balanced because the mon that has it is simply terrible even with it.

 

On the Digglet and Trapinch, the fact that both are not UU or NU by usage as Gb mentioned later, say that both are harmless even having a broken ability, if they wasn't then UU and NU players would be exploiting them, since on those metas there is no concorrence with dugtrio and far less answers than OU. The problem is especifically Dugtrio with AT because he has a broken ability and what is required to abuse of it.

 

There is degree of uncompetitiveness to say if a thing should be banned or not despite being uncompetitive. Serp with Contrary + defog fits onto one uncompetitive category, but is in a acceptable degree. Magnet Pull fits into being Uncompetitive, but again, is in a acceptable degree. Dugtrio AT is not in a acceptable degree and that's why we're here bringing it to discussion.

Again, I am not discussing if it is broken or not, it is pointless to reply with arguments that don't have anything to do with what I said. I even specified that I said everything regardless of their viability in whatever tier they are.

 

Diglett and Trapinch can be bad but can they trap a large number of mons? yes, they can. Even if they manage to be useful very few times thanks to its ability they shouldn't be able to be so because this ability just allows to trap a large number of mons and delete them, and again I will point out that they don't need to be able to delete a mon at 100%, they can just delete weakened mons which is already very bad.

 

I don't think they are broken, I wouldn't even use Diglett and Trapinch and I don't care about facing Dugtrio but this ability is uncompetitive.

[caioxlive13]

On 5/13/2024 at 5:02 PM, benwallacehof said:

 

 

 

If the other arena trap mons see as little usage as the other posters claim, what would be the harm in a blanket Arena Trap ban? They don't see usage anyways, right?

The problem is some metas that has AT as a legit strat, most of them are unofficial but they're still played(Mentioning quick examples are LC and Untiered) and even for NU there is the niche of Trapinch to deal with Gigalith for instance. Banning AT for OU means all tiers below it banning it as well. That's the problem. 

[Huargensy]

1 hour ago, caioxlive13 said:

The problem is some metas that has AT as a legit strat, most of them are unofficial but they're still played(Mentioning quick examples are LC and Untiered) and even for NU there is the niche of Trapinch to deal with Gigalith for instance. Banning AT for OU means all tiers below it banning it as well. That's the problem. 

Lc and UT do not exist, if something happens just correct your rules when sending the duel or I don't know, but our decisions will not take into account 2 levels that do not exist.

[benwallacehof]

2 hours ago, caioxlive13 said:

The problem is some metas that has AT as a legit strat, most of them are unofficial but they're still played(Mentioning quick examples are LC and Untiered) and even for NU there is the niche of Trapinch to deal with Gigalith for instance. Banning AT for OU means all tiers below it banning it as well. That's the problem. 

That's also a problem though. Which is why Arena Trap should be banned. You kind of proved my point I suppose?

 

[gbwead]

AT is not relevant in NU and, even if it was relevant in NU, it would still have no impact on whether or not AT should be banned or not in OU. 

[VelociRaptorr]

Ban dugtrio 
 

[FlacuSkye]

First of all, let me begin by saying i firmly believe this should end in a ban one way or another.
Now, the issue is, ¿should be complex ban Dugtrio+Arena Trap or ban the ability as a whole? Both sides provided coherent arguments and it's still a hard decision to make, so i propose the following: Complex banning Arena Trap + Over Used.

This means that no Pokemon in OU (and only OU) would be able to run Arena Trap, by only limiting the ban for that tier it allows the inferior tiers to still be able to use Pokemon with Arena Trap, since their niche exists, but is very very small.
Dugtrio would end up with only Sand Force as an usable ability in OU, meaning its usage will plummet to 0%. For the time being, Dugtrio is also banned from UU, but, say, we were to suspect test it, it would be able to run AT in UU, but still only Sand Force in OU.

This is just a silly idea but i hope i conveyed the idea correctly.

(wait i think i understood some stuff wrong and just said sumn stupid XD lol i hope not)

Edited May 15 by FlacuSkye

[Huargensy]

1 hour ago, FlacuSkye said:

En primer lugar, permítanme comenzar diciendo que creo firmemente que esto debería terminar en una prohibición de una forma u otra.
Ahora, el problema es, ¿debería ser una prohibición compleja de Dugtrio+Arena Trap o una prohibición completa de la habilidad? Ambas partes proporcionaron argumentos coherentes y sigue siendo una decisión difícil de tomar, por lo que propongo lo siguiente: Prohibición compleja de Arena Trap + Over Used.

Esto significa que ningún Pokémon  en OU (y solo OU)   podría ejecutar Arena Trap, al limitar solo la prohibición para ese nivel, permite que los niveles inferiores aún puedan usar Pokémon con Arena Trap, ya que su nicho existe, pero es muy muy pequeño.
Dugtrio terminaría teniendo solo Sand Force como habilidad utilizable en OU, lo que significa que su uso caerá en picado al 0%. Por el momento, Dugtrio también está prohibido en UU, pero, digamos, si sospechamos que lo probamos, podría ejecutar AT en UU, pero aún solo Sand Force en OU.

Esta es solo una idea tonta, pero espero haberla transmitido correctamente.

(espera, creo que entendí mal algunas cosas y solo dije una estupidez XD jajaja, espero que no)

Allowing dugtrio in the lower levels just shows hypocrisy at its finest, dugtrio does the same in every tier, trapp and kill something that weakens the other team while you get a non-competitive advantage, if we leave it in UU it will do the same, in NU same. Furthermore, complex prohibitions are the worst, we have enough to have it on movements to have to deal with complex prohibitions on tiers, not to mention that it makes no sense to allow it in UU and NU and not in OU, which is a higher tier.

[RysPicz]

Tbh the way I see it, we have 2 viable solutions:

 

1. Ban Dugtrio as a whole or nerf it to the ground

2. Ban Arena trap

 

 

Now, what about that unwritten "no uber" policy? Because if we're supposed to follow it, then it's clear that Arena trap needs to get the iron boot of ghaey. I honestly don't know how we can "fix" Dugtrio without banning it or Arena trap.

Whatever will follow, regardless if it's AT ban or Dugtrio ban, either decision is good for our OU.