NU Tier Discussion Request Thread

[SweeTforU]

2 minutes ago, xStarr said:

You run hyper offense, obv you gonna get bopped by Ambipom. 

you dont know me... im running stall bro.

[caioxlive13]

3 hours ago, xStarr said:

You run hyper offense, obv you gonna get bopped by Ambipom. 

What is their main counters/checks on tier? 
Also, a priority with 90 power(1,5x by Technican, 1,5x by Stab) that can't have dmg reduced by type, against everything that aren't Ghost/Steel/Rock, seems very strong to me. And a good Physical wall, Gligar, leaves the tier. Some things must be considerated.

Edited December 10, 2022 by caioxlive13

[Imperial]

2 hours ago, caioxlive13 said:

What is their main counters/checks on tier? 
Also, a priority with 90 power(1,5x by Technican, 1,5x by Stab) that can't have dmg reduced by type, against everything that aren't Ghost/Steel/Rock, seems very strong to me. And a good Physical wall, Gligar, leaves the tier. Some things must be considerated.

Assuming it runs the set U-Turn, Fake Out, Quick Attack, Return/Double Edge pretty much what you mentioned:

 

Steelix, Rotom, Froslass, Escavalier, Magneton (niche), Bronzor, Golem, Golurk

 

Quagsire should be able to handle the standard set:

252 Atk Silk Scarf Ambipom Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 70-84 (34.6 - 41.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

(can toxic/recover or scald/earthquake if healthy enough)

 

Piloswine can also check Ambipom to an extent, if you want to be extra cautious you can add more bulk:

252 Atk Silk Scarf Ambipom Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Piloswine: 70-84 (33.8 - 40.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

(can chip it down with Earthquake/Icicle Spear and also potentially revenge kill with Ice Shard if chipped enough and Ambipom has no priority)

 

Seismitoad:

252 Atk Silk Scarf Ambipom Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 76-90 (35.8 - 42.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

(can chip it down with Earthquake/Scald etc depending on the nature and set)

 

Hitmontop:

-1 252 Atk Silk Scarf Ambipom Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hitmontop: 43-52 (27.3 - 33.1%) -- 14.3% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

(the -1 is due to the intimidate activation - can use Close Combat)

 

Alomomola:

252 Atk Silk Scarf Ambipom Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 73-87 (26.8 - 31.9%) -- 55.4% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

(can stall out with toxic + wish/protect)

 

Qwilfish:

-1 252 Atk Silk Scarf Ambipom Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Qwilfish: 48-57 (27.9 - 33.1%) -- 85.6% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

(the -1 is due to the intimidate activation)

 

Some also run Bullet Seed or Beat Up to deal with Quagsire/ghost types, but then you either lose U-Turn or Quick Attack, two moves it should really have.

[epicdavenport]

4 minutes ago, Imperial said:

Assuming it runs the set U-Turn, Fake Out, Quick Attack, Return/Double Edge pretty much what you mentioned:

 

Steelix, Rotom, Froslass, Escavalier, Magneton (niche), Bronzor, Golem, Golurk

 

Quagsire should be able to handle the standard set:

252 Atk Silk Scarf Ambipom Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 70-84 (34.6 - 41.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

(can toxic/recover or scald/earthquake if healthy enough)

 

Piloswine can also check Ambipom to an extent, if you want to be extra cautious you can add more bulk:

252 Atk Silk Scarf Ambipom Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Piloswine: 70-84 (33.8 - 40.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

(can chip it down with Earthquake/Icicle Spear and also potentially revenge kill with Ice Shard if chipped enough and Ambipom has no priority)

 

Seismitoad:

252 Atk Silk Scarf Ambipom Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 76-90 (35.8 - 42.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

(can chip it down with Earthquake/Scald etc depending on the nature and set)

 

Hitmontop:

-1 252 Atk Silk Scarf Ambipom Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hitmontop: 43-52 (27.3 - 33.1%) -- 14.3% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

(the -1 is due to the intimidate activation - can use Close Combat)

 

Alomomola:

252 Atk Silk Scarf Ambipom Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 73-87 (26.8 - 31.9%) -- 55.4% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

(can stall out with toxic + wish/protect)

 

Qwilfish:

-1 252 Atk Silk Scarf Ambipom Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Qwilfish: 48-57 (27.9 - 33.1%) -- 85.6% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

(the -1 is due to the intimidate activation)

 

Some also run Bullet Seed or Beat Up to deal with Quagsire/ghost types, but then you either lose U-Turn or Quick Attack, two moves it should really have.

Should it be looked at as a offensive uber? Feel like more of it's issue comes from a support on defensive teams and slapping offensive playstyles harder than just about anything.

[SweeTforU]

This mon just depresses the use of offense in NU and make stall or semi stall the better and the more common playstyle... If you don't understand it or you do understand it and you are fine with it then you are a coward. Like I said before, no one likes 60 mins games

[NiceRNGbro]

those who use wall have no problems with ambipom, not much, its problem is not being broken, it restricts the hyper offensive teambuild, and that's where it becomes a problem, I've lost count of how many times I was blocked by ambipom, how many times he ended my game for the simple fact that I used Hyper Offensive, Of course, he does have counters but the problem is to restrict who plays offensively, it's disgusting that monkey in NU, for so long.

 

This is just my opinion, maybe it doesn't matter.

But anyway, I think it will go up this month end for usage, finally.

Edited December 11, 2022 by NiceRNGbro
.

[Sargeste]

There is 100% something wrong with one pokemon invalidating an entire playstyle.

Thing gets two 108 BP (at least, with Silk Scarf) priority moves, one of which prevents opponents from attacking (aka, auto-lose if you run HO without some stupid tech set that is otherwise just terrible). That should be enough to have it looked at.

Edited December 11, 2022 by Sargeste

[caioxlive13]

13 hours ago, Imperial said:

Assuming it runs the set U-Turn, Fake Out, Quick Attack, Return/Double Edge pretty much what you mentioned:

 

Steelix, Rotom, Froslass, Escavalier, Magneton (niche), Bronzor, Golem, Golurk

 

Quagsire should be able to handle the standard set:

252 Atk Silk Scarf Ambipom Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 70-84 (34.6 - 41.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

(can toxic/recover or scald/earthquake if healthy enough)

 

Piloswine can also check Ambipom to an extent, if you want to be extra cautious you can add more bulk:

252 Atk Silk Scarf Ambipom Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Piloswine: 70-84 (33.8 - 40.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

(can chip it down with Earthquake/Icicle Spear and also potentially revenge kill with Ice Shard if chipped enough and Ambipom has no priority)

 

Seismitoad:

252 Atk Silk Scarf Ambipom Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 76-90 (35.8 - 42.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

(can chip it down with Earthquake/Scald etc depending on the nature and set)

 

Hitmontop:

-1 252 Atk Silk Scarf Ambipom Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hitmontop: 43-52 (27.3 - 33.1%) -- 14.3% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

(the -1 is due to the intimidate activation - can use Close Combat)

 

Alomomola:

252 Atk Silk Scarf Ambipom Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 73-87 (26.8 - 31.9%) -- 55.4% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

(can stall out with toxic + wish/protect)

 

Qwilfish:

-1 252 Atk Silk Scarf Ambipom Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Qwilfish: 48-57 (27.9 - 33.1%) -- 85.6% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

(the -1 is due to the intimidate activation)

 

Some also run Bullet Seed or Beat Up to deal with Quagsire/ghost types, but then you either lose U-Turn or Quick Attack, two moves it should really have.

Okay, all checks(with calcs) you mentioned are walls/used with defense or support sets. Something offensive exist and can check Ambipon?

 

12 hours ago, epicdavenport said:

Should it be looked at as a offensive uber? Feel like more of it's issue comes from a support on defensive teams and slapping offensive playstyles harder than just about anything.

Not offensive-uber because a lot of walls can handle it. Problem is no offensive mons is able to handle it and it invalidates Hyper Offense. Should fall on "Unhealty"

Edited December 11, 2022 by caioxlive13

[caioxlive13]

12 hours ago, SweeTforU said:

This mon just depresses the use of offense in NU and make stall or semi stall the better and the more common playstyle... If you don't understand it or you do understand it and you are fine with it then you are a coward. Like I said before, no one likes 60 mins games

There's a reason to us Fear the arrival of Regenerator mons, like Amoongus, Slowbro, Tangrowth, etc...

[gbwead]

12 hours ago, SweeTforU said:

This mon just depresses the use of offense in NU and make stall or semi stall the better and the more common playstyle... If you don't understand it or you do understand it and you are fine with it then you are a coward. Like I said before, no one likes 60 mins games

Perhaps you should make a case for Ambipom being banworthy instead of calling people cowards if they dare disagree with you. Hating on stall may give you a ton of likes, but that is not and will never be a valid argument for something getting banned.

Some things I would like to add:

• I personally believe Ambipom does pressure Offense to an unhealthy degree and I think a good case could be made to demonstrate that. 
• Stall is not the most dominant playstyle in NU, that's blatantly untrue and just some absurd propangada. On top of that, NU compared to UU/OU is probably the tier in which stall is the least viable playstyle and this has been the case for years now.
• The fact that no one likes 60 mins games is just completly irrelevant. 

Edited December 11, 2022 by gbwead

[caioxlive13]

13 minutes ago, gbwead said:

 

• Stall is not the most dominant playstyle in NU, that's blatantly untrue and just some absurd propangada. On top of that, NU compared to UU/OU is probably the tier in which stall is the least viable playstyle and this has been the case for years now.
• The fact that no one likes 60 mins games is just completly irrelevant. 

Stall and the Semi-stall teams, maybe Stall isn't dominant but Semistall/Balanced teams with High defensive bulk on 5/6 of team gets more sucess on tier. But according the Imperial's List, we don't have too much offensive checks to him, proofing the point of SweetforU, that Ambipon could invalidate Hyper Offense, making player use Balanced , Semistall or stall in order to survive, and making matches long and very boring.

Edited December 11, 2022 by caioxlive13

[gbwead]

1 minute ago, caioxlive13 said:

 maybe Stall isn't dominant 

ya it's clearly not

 

2 minutes ago, caioxlive13 said:

Semistall/Balanced teams with High defensive bulk on 5/6 of team gets more sucess on tier.

I agree that Balance probably does get more success in the tier. However, the balance playstyle I'm talking about does not correspond to teams with 5/6 mons with high defensive bulk. That's just not what Balance is, so let's not kid ourselves by painting a picture of NU where defensive teams are getting more success than offensive ones.

 

7 minutes ago, caioxlive13 said:

But according the Imperial's List, we don't have too much offensive checks to him, proofing the point of SweetforU, that Ambipon could invalidate Hyper Offense.

It may prove that specific point about Ambipom invalidating Hyper Offense. That does not mean that Ambipom makes Stall or Semi Stall the dominant playstyle.

Also, look at the list that was put together:

Steelix, Rotom, Froslass, Escavalier, Magneton (niche), Bronzor, Golem, Golurk

 

• Steelix is most of the time played defensively, I agree.
• Rotom can be played in so many different ways, so it's not fair to consider it solely as a defensive mon.
• Escavalier is most of the time played offensively.
• Froslass is most of the time played as a suicide lead. There are some bulkier versions of Froslass that a quite rare, but those never fit in stall teams, because Frolass is just terrible as a wall.
• Magneton is clearly an offensive pokemon.
• Bronzor is a defensive pokemon.
• Golem is an offensive pokemon.
• Golurk is an offensive pokemon.

Don't tell me that this list shows that the mons that can check Ambipom Normal Stab Moves are mostly defensive, because only 2 of 8 of these mons are played defensively. While 5 of them are played offensively and Rotom is played in several different ways.

 

I think the argument to be made here is that aside from Bronzor and Steelix (the two defensive mons from the list), the checks to the normal stab moves of Ambipom can all fall victim to w.e coverage Ambipom may run: Fire Punch, Beat Up, Pursuit, Seed Bomb, etc. Steelix and Bronzor do not fear these moves. 

 

 

[caioxlive13]

6 minutes ago, gbwead said:

ya it's clearly not

 

I agree that Balance probably does get more success in the tier. However, the balance playstyle I'm talking about does not correspond to teams with 5/6 mons with high defensive bulk. That's just not what Balance is, so let's not kid ourselves by painting a picture of NU where defensive teams are getting more success than offensive ones.

 

It may prove that specific point about Ambipom invalidating Hyper Offense. That does not mean that Ambipom makes Stall or Semi Stall the dominant playstyle.

Also, look at the list that was put together:

Steelix, Rotom, Froslass, Escavalier, Magneton (niche), Bronzor, Golem, Golurk

 

• Steelix is most of the time played defensively, I agree.
• Rotom can be played in so many different ways, so it's not fair to consider it solely as a defensive mon.
• Escavalier is most of the time played offensively.
• Froslass is most of the time played as a suicide lead. There are some bulkier versions of Froslass that a quite rare, but those never fit in stall teams, because Frolass is just terrible as a wall.
• Magneton is clearly an offensive pokemon.
• Bronzor is a defensive pokemon.
• Golem is an offensive pokemon.
• Golurk is an offensive pokemon.

Don't tell me that this list shows that the mons that can check Ambipom Normal Stab Moves are mostly defensive, because only 2 of 8 of these mons are played defensively. While 5 of them are played offensively and Rotom is played in several different ways.

 

I think the argument to be made here is that aside from Bronzor and Steelix (the two defensive mons from the list), the checks to the normal stab moves of Ambipom can all fall victim to w.e coverage Ambipom may run: Fire Punch, Beat Up, Pursuit, Seed Bomb, etc. Steelix and Bronzor do not fear these moves. 

 

 

Golem usually i've see it with Rocks + Spin. Frosslass is usually Suicide Lead, have some offensive sets but who uses it? Escavalier is good offensivelly, i agree. Magneton is more a support to remove steels not called Steelix. Golurk... i've never seen it, their popularity rose after Golbat and Gligar rise? Rotom, one of their best sets on regular form is more support-focused with Trick/WoW/Hex/Volt Switch (with scarf). 

Edited December 11, 2022 by caioxlive13

[NiceRNGbro]

Alright, let's go.

 

I'm going to analyze Ambipom against offensive pokemons, that's it. 

 

Spoiler

I will analyze the most common set

 

Ambipom @ Silk Scarf

Level: 50

Jolly Nature

Ability: Technician

EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe

- Fake Out

- Double-Edge

- Beat Up

- Quick Attack

 

Of course, containing variables depending on the pokémon, after all Ambipom is a very versatile pokémon, it can use Seed Bomb to capture Golem and Quagsire, Beat Up/Thief/Pursuit for Rotom and Froslass, U-turn to pivot (90% have this move, but don't include it in the calculations to demonstrate Ambipom's versatility, so this should be considered.)

 

Charizard

Spoiler

252 Atk Silk Scarf Technician Ambipom Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Charizard: 64-76 (41.8 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

Fake Out + Quick Attack doesn't kill Charizard, but with Double Edge it can get the kill out of it.

 

252 Atk Silk Scarf Ambipom Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Charizard: 127-150 (83 - 98%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

  Alakazam

Spoiler

Alakazam has Inner Focus, so it is immune to the Fake out flinch and can counter with Focus Blast or a simple Psychic depending on the item.

 

But his very weak defense makes him almost get HKOed for the Fake out/Quick Attack.

 

252 Atk Silk Scarf Technician Ambipom Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Alakazam: 96-114 (73.8 - 87.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

If Adamant, has "high" chance of HKO post rocks:

 

252+ Atk Silk Scarf Technician Ambipom Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Alakazam: 105-124 (80.7 - 95.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock.

Golem

Spoiler

Golem can resist all of Ambipom's most common attacks due to its Rock typing, but if Ambipom uses Fake Out + Seed Bomb or even Bullet Seed, it cannot resist. but good seed bomb or Bullet Seed They are very rare.

 

252 Atk Technician Ambipom Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Golem: 180-216 (116.1 - 139.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

252 Atk Silk Scarf Technician Ambipom Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Golem: 21-24 (13.5 - 15.4%) -- possible 7HKO

 

if 86% = 252 Atk Ambipom Seed Bomb vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Golem: 124-148 (80 - 95.4%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

Magneton

Spoiler

This one also resists Ambipom's troublesome stabs, I calculated it with several different Magneton sets like Eviolite 0 HP, Eviolite 252 HP, Choice Specs/Scarf 252 HP, Choice Specs/Scarf 0 HP with Fake Out + Fire Punch, Fire punch is absurdly unusual, almost irrelevant but I decided to put it here anyway. 

 

252 Atk Silk Scarf Technician Ambipom Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Magneton: 18-21 (14.4 - 16.8%) -- possible 6HKO

 

252 Atk Ambipom Fire Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Magneton: 52-62 (41.6 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO - In that case Fake Out + 2 Fire Punch would be enough to knock him out

 

In this case, it's bad for Ambipom, there's nothing to argue about.

252 Atk Ambipom Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Magneton: 52-62 (33.1 - 39.4%) -- 99.3% chance to 3HKO

 

And Magneton returns with:

 

252+ SpA Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Ambipom: 112-133 (74.6 - 88.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

Magneton is a pokémon that maybe can enter in ambipom, after all Fire Punch is trash imo, But U-turn pivoting and entering a Ton counter makes the game even more complicated.

 

 

Hitmonchan

Spoiler

Not much to say, Fake Out + Quick Attack = HKO and Double Edge = HKO

 

252 Atk Silk Scarf Technician Ambipom Fake Out vs. 6 HP / 0 Def Hitmonchan: 63-75 (50 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

But you can try to do a Revenge Kill with him depending on the occasion in the fight, with a good roll in Mach Punch to kill

 

252+ Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Hitmonchan Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Ambipom: 140-166 (93.3 - 110.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

 

Typhlosion 

Spoiler

This one has the exact same rolls as Charizard, Fake Out + Quick Attack doesn't kill and Double Edge doesn't either, but if it rocks then your typhlosion was killed.

 

252 Atk Silk Scarf Technician Ambipom Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Typhlosion: 64-76 (41.8 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

252 Atk Silk Scarf Ambipom Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Typhlosion: 127-150 (83 - 98%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Typhlosion Specs kills Ambipom with Flamethrower or Focus Blast, Eruption also if it is not low HP

 

Ninjask

Spoiler

He can use Protect on Fake Out and return with Acrobatics with high chance of HKO, Quick Attack is not enough to kill Ninjask, if you have rocks your ninjask is already dead for fake outro 

I won't expose Ambipom calcs because it's irrelevant this time.

 

252+ Atk Flying Gem Ninjask Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Ambipom: 144-171 (96 - 114%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

Edited December 11, 2022 by NiceRNGbro
aaaaA

[caioxlive13]

24 minutes ago, NiceRNGbro said:

Alright, let's go.

 

I'm going to analyze Ambipom against offensive pokemons, that's it. 

( I'm not done yet, I accidentally sent it, so please don't reply yet)

 

  Hide contents

I will analyze the most common set

 

Ambipom @ Silk Scarf

Level: 50

Jolly Nature

Ability: Technician

EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe

- Fake Out

- Double-Edge

- Beat Up

- Quick Attack

 

Of course, containing variables depending on the pokémon, after all Ambipom is a very versatile pokémon, it can use Seed Bomb to capture Golem and Quagsire, Beat Up/Thief/Pursuit for Rotom and Froslass, U-turn to pivot (90% have this move, but don't include it in the calculations to demonstrate Ambipom's versatility, so this should be considered.)

 

Charizard

  Hide contents

252 Atk Silk Scarf Technician Ambipom Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Charizard: 64-76 (41.8 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

Fake Out + Quick Attack doesn't kill Charizard, but with Double Edge it can get the kill out of it.

252 Atk Silk Scarf Ambipom Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Charizard: 127-150 (83 - 98%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

  Alakazam

  Hide contents

Alakazam has Inner Focus, so it is immune to the Fake out flinch and can counter with Focus Blast or a simple Psychic depending on the item.

 

But his very weak defense makes him almost get HKOed for the Fake out/Quick Attack.

 

252 Atk Silk Scarf Technician Ambipom Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Alakazam: 96-114 (73.8 - 87.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

If Adamant, has "high" chance of HKO post rocks: 252+ Atk Silk Scarf Technician Ambipom Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Alakazam: 105-124 (80.7 - 95.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock.

Golem

  Hide contents

Golem can resist all of Ambipom's most common attacks due to its Rock typing, but if Ambipom uses Fake Out + Seed Bomb or even Bullet Seed, it cannot resist. but good seed bomb or Bullet Seed They are very rare.

 

252 Atk Technician Ambipom Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Golem: 180-216 (116.1 - 139.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

252 Atk Silk Scarf Technician Ambipom Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Golem: 21-24 (13.5 - 15.4%) -- possible 7HKO

if 86% = 252 Atk Ambipom Seed Bomb vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Golem: 124-148 (80 - 95.4%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

Magneton

  Hide contents

This one also resists Ambipom's troublesome stabs, I calculated it with several different Magneton sets like Eviolite 0 HP, Eviolite 252 HP, Choice Specs/Scarf 252 HP, Choice Specs/Scarf 0 HP with Fake Out + Fire Punch, Fire punch is absurdly unusual, almost irrelevant but I decided to put it here anyway. 

 

252 Atk Silk Scarf Technician Ambipom Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Magneton: 18-21 (14.4 - 16.8%) -- possible 6HKO

252 Atk Ambipom Fire Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Magneton: 52-62 (41.6 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO - In that case Fake Out + 2 Fire Punch would be enough to knock him out

 

In this case, it's bad for Ambipom, there's nothing to argue about.

252 Atk Ambipom Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Magneton: 52-62 (33.1 - 39.4%) -- 99.3% chance to 3HKO

 

And Magneton returns with: 252+ SpA Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Ambipom: 112-133 (74.6 - 88.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

Magneton is a pokémon that maybe can enter in ambipom, after all Fire Punch is trash imo, But U-turn pivoting and entering a Ton counter makes the game even more complicated.

 

 

Hitmonchan

  Hide contents

Not much to say, Fake Out + Quick Attack = HKO and Double Edge = HKO

 

252 Atk Silk Scarf Technician Ambipom Fake Out vs. 6 HP / 0 Def Hitmonchan: 63-75 (50 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

But you can try to do a Revenge Kill with him depending on the occasion in the fight, with a good roll in Mach Punch to kill

 

252+ Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Hitmonchan Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Ambipom: 140-166 (93.3 - 110.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

 

Typhlosion 

  Hide contents

This one has the exact same rolls as Charizard, Fake Out + Quick Attack doesn't kill and Double Edge doesn't either, but if it rocks then your typhlosion was killed.

 

252 Atk Silk Scarf Technician Ambipom Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Typhlosion: 64-76 (41.8 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Silk Scarf Ambipom Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Typhlosion: 127-150 (83 - 98%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Typhlosion Specs kills Ambipom with Flamethrower or Focus Blast, Eruption also if it is not low HP

 

Ninjask

  Hide contents

He can use Protect on Fake Out and return with Acrobatics with high chance of HKO, Quick Attack is not enough to kill Ninjask, if you have rocks your ninjask is already dead for fake outro 

I won't expose Ambipom calcs because it's irrelevant this time.

 

252+ Atk Flying Gem Ninjask Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Ambipom: 144-171 (96 - 114%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

 

Absol

  Hide contents

Fake Out + Quick Attack kills and so does Double Edge

If not using Quick Attack Sucker critical punch has only 50% chance to HKO

 

252 Atk Silk Scarf Technician Ambipom Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Absol: 78-93 (55.7 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

 

Problem is the fact that Ambipon can use U-Turn. If not, probablly Ambipon would suffer from the 4 moveslot syndrome. But with U-turn, he can use the Triple stab and if he can't handle the opponent, he could just switch with U-turn and enter with a mon that can.

[NiceRNGbro]

continuing 

 

Spoiler

Absol

Spoiler

Fake Out + Quick Attack kills and so does Double Edge

 

If not using Quick Attack Sucker critical punch has only 50% chance to HKO, If adamant.

 

252 Atk Silk Scarf Technician Ambipom Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Absol: 78-93 (55.7 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

252+ Atk Absol Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Ambipom on a critical hit: 136-162 (90.6 - 108%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

Honchkrow

Spoiler

Fake Out + Quick Attack = Death Double Edge = Death 

 

If sucker punch Crit, Jolly still doesn't kill, Adamant Sucker punch crit gets 31% roll.

 

252+ Atk Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Ambipom on a critical hit: 133-157 (88.6 - 104.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

 

252 Atk Silk Scarf Technician Ambipom Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 6 Def Honchkrow: 81-96 (49 - 58.1%) -- 96.5% chance to 2HKO

 

252 Atk Silk Scarf Ambipom Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 6 Def Honchkrow: 160-189 (96.9 - 114.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

Houndoom

Spoiler

Needless to say, horrible defense and not outspeed. 

 

Fake Out + Quick Attack = Death Double Edge = Death 

 

252 Atk Silk Scarf Technician Ambipom Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Houndoom: 84-100 (56 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

252 Atk Silk Scarf Ambipom Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Houndoom: 168-198 (112 - 132%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Sceptile

Spoiler

Fake Out + Quick Attack = High chance to kill || Double Edge (Ambipom is slower) = high chance to kill

 

252 Atk Silk Scarf Technician Ambipom Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sceptile: 69-82 (47.5 - 56.5%) -- 86.3% chance to 2HKO

 

252 Atk Silk Scarf Ambipom Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sceptile: 138-163 (95.1 - 112.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

 

 

Gallade

Spoiler

Fake Out + Quick = 91% HKO || Double Edge = Almost 100% HKO

 

It has Steadfast, but who cares?

 

252 Atk Silk Scarf Technician Ambipom Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gallade: 69-82 (48.2 - 57.3%) -- 91% chance to 2HKO

 

252 Atk Silk Scarf Ambipom Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gallade: 138-163 (96.5 - 113.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

OMG BLAZIKEN BAJAHAISKQIAJAKAOAKAJAGA

Spoiler

The big monster of the tier, it doesn't stand a chance against Ambipom.

 

Fake Out + Quick Attack doesn't kill it without rocks, but the Ambipom can simply take 42%+ off your blaziken and switch to a partner and at a later point kill it.

 

252 Atk Silk Scarf Technician Ambipom Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Blaziken: 66-78 (42.5 - 50.3%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

 

With rocks:

 

252 Atk Silk Scarf Technician Ambipom Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Blaziken: 66-78 (42.5 - 50.3%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Froslass

Spoiler

Considering only its lead moveset, Beat up kills if it's more than 3 hits, I don't know how to calculate Beat Up XD

 

Calculating a Thief/Pursuit (no switch out) we see

 

 

252 Atk Technician Ambipom Thief vs. 0 HP / 6 Def Froslass: 114-136 (78.6 - 93.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

And

 

252 Atk Technician Ambipom Pursuit (40 BP) vs. 0 HP / 6 Def Froslass: 78-92 (53.7 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

 

Ambipom can easily kill Froslass, given the necessary coverage.

Lilligant

Spoiler

Common on some hyper offenses, it cannot deal with Ambipom, it simply ceases to exist.

 

Fake Out + Quick Attack without rocks has near 50% chance to kill and Double Edge the same %

 

Fake Out + U-turn It can kill 

 

Considering that most Lilligant uses life orb and Ambipom comes in to revenge kill, usually lilligant doesn't have full hp when entering

 Ambipom, so it always stops lill's possible sweep

 

252 Atk Silk Scarf Technician Ambipom Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lilligant: 66-78 (45.5 - 53.7%) -- 34.4% chance to 2HKO

 

252 Atk Silk Scarf Ambipom Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lilligant: 130-154 (89.6 - 106.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

 

252 Atk Ambipom U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lilligant: 86-102 (59.3 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Scyther

Spoiler

I did a calculation with the 2 possible sets, Eviolite with Swords dance or Scarf/Band.

 

It suffers the same case as Blaziken, it doesn't die to Fake Out + Quick or Double Edge without rocks, but it can still take damage and switch and come back later to finish the job.

 

252 Atk Silk Scarf Technician Ambipom Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Scyther: 63-75 (43.4 - 51.7%) -- 9.8% chance to 2HKO

 

252 Atk Silk Scarf Ambipom Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Scyther: 124-147 (85.5 - 101.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

 

Eviolite - Bulky, But it continues to suffer.

 

Fake Out + Double Edge doesn't have a good chance to kill, even with Max Roll on both (Gets 31% HKO considering Fake Out gives Max roll)

 

252 Atk Silk Scarf Technician Ambipom Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Scyther: 42-51 (28.9 - 35.1%) -- 8.3% chance to 3HKO

 

252 Atk Silk Scarf Ambipom Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Scyther: 84-99 (57.9 - 68.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Drapion

Spoiler

Bulky, but it doesn't stand a chance against a Fake Out + Double Edge.

 

252 Atk Silk Scarf Technician Ambipom Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Drapion: 48-57 (33.1 - 39.3%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO

 

252 Atk Silk Scarf Ambipom Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Drapion: 94-112 (64.8 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Eelektross

Spoiler

I only considered the Max HP set with Assault Vest/Leftovers, it is Bulky but has no chance against Fake Out + Double Edge.

 

252 Atk Silk Scarf Technician Ambipom Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eelektross: 63-75 (32.8 - 39%) -- 99.5% chance to 3HKO

 

252 Atk Silk Scarf Ambipom Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eelektross: 124-147 (64.5 - 76.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Golurk

Spoiler

I only considered the Max Speed set without EVs in HP.

Quite Bulky, I don't know how to calculate Beat Up, but 4 hits+ depending, should kill. 

 

252 Atk Technician Ambipom Thief vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Golurk: 102-122 (62.1 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

252 Atk Ambipom Seed Bomb vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Golurk: 90-108 (54.8 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

252 Atk Technician Ambipom Bullet Seed (4 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Golurk: 176-208 (107.3 - 126.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Cinccino

Spoiler

I spare no words, Fake Out + Quick Attack = Death Double Edge = Death 

 

252 Atk Silk Scarf Technician Ambipom Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Cinccino: 76-91 (50.6 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

252 Atk Silk Scarf Ambipom Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Cinccino: 153-180 (102 - 120%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Rotom 

Spoiler

I only calculated the offensive set, I don't know how to calculate Beat Up, 3 hits+ should kill.

 

Immune to stabs, can't be HKOed by anything other than Beat Up, and can reciprocate with Will O Wisp, However, it can take U-turn and get stuck to a pokémon with Pursuit, or anyone who simply kills Rotom (or Wall him)

 

252 Atk Technician Ambipom Thief vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rotom: 106-126 (84.8 - 100.8%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

 

It can also help with Scarf Volt Switch/Thunderbolt which is not a good idea.

Escavalier

Spoiler

Best possible for the occasion, it resists stabs and all of Ambipom's coverage, the only problem for it would be Fire Punch which is uncommon.

 

It can help stop ambipom with Band Pursuit, which takes a lot of HP from the little monkey.

 

252 Atk Silk Scarf Technician Ambipom Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Escavalier: 25-30 (14.1 - 16.9%) -- possible 6HKO

 

252 Atk Silk Scarf Ambipom Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Escavalier: 50-59 (28.2 - 33.3%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO

 

If using Fire Punch:

252 Atk Ambipom Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Escavalier: 140-168 (79 - 94.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

Doesn't kill without rocks, but fake out + Fire Punch can kill, and with rocks it gets a 50% Roll.

 

He can return with a pursuit the ambipoms without Fire Punch

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Escavalier switching boosted Pursuit (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Ambipom: 107-126 (71.3 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Vanilluxe

Spoiler

Holds Fake Out + Quick Attack "well" and doesn't take HKO to Double Edge, can be used Scarf that outspeed Ambipom or Specs that knocks it out, it has weaknesses to rocks and that's bad, because it's a Vanilluxe, it usually comes in to do Revenge Kill and put pressure on the opponent, So idk what to think about Vani.

 

252 Atk Silk Scarf Technician Ambipom Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Vanilluxe in Hail: 40-48 (27.3 - 32.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

 

252 Atk Silk Scarf Ambipom Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Vanilluxe in Hail: 79-94 (54.1 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

If scarf

252 SpA Vanilluxe Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ambipom: 117-138 (78 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after hail damage

Specs = HKO

Hitmontop

Spoiler

I only considered the offensive sets

 

252 Atk Silk Scarf Technician Ambipom Fake Out vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Hitmontop: 54-64 (34.6 - 41%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

252 Atk Silk Scarf Ambipom Double-Edge vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Hitmontop: 108-127 (69.2 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

hitmontop returns with:

 

252+ Atk Technician Hitmontop Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Ambipom: 126-150 (84 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO & 252+ Atk Hitmontop Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Ambipom: 252-296 (168 - 197.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

Intimidate with the same set 

 

-1 252 Atk Silk Scarf Technician Ambipom Fake Out vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Hitmontop: 36-43 (23 - 27.5%) -- 62.3% chance to 4HKO

 

-1 252 Atk Silk Scarf Ambipom Double-Edge vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Hitmontop: 72-85 (46.1 - 54.4%) -- 55.1% chance to 2HKO

 

Hitmontop returns with:

 

252+ Atk Hitmontop Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Ambipom: 84-102 (56 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Piloswine

Spoiler

One of the best too, can handle to some extent.

 

252 Atk Silk Scarf Technician Ambipom Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Piloswine: 42-51 (20.2 - 24.6%) -- guaranteed 5HKO

 

252 Atk Silk Scarf Ambipom Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Piloswine: 84-99 (40.5 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

Pilo returns with: 252+ Atk Piloswine Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Ambipom: 109-129 (72.6 - 86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 

 

 

Samurott

Spoiler

Withstands Fake Out + Quick Attack and also Double Edge, and returns with a lot of damage.

 

252 Atk Silk Scarf Technician Ambipom Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Samurott: 58-70 (34.1 - 41.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

252 Atk Silk Scarf Ambipom Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Samurott: 118-139 (69.4 - 81.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Specs: +1 252 SpA Samurott Surf vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ambipom: 141-166 (94 - 110.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

 

Physical: 252+ Atk Samurott Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Ambipom: 87-103 (58 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO &

 

252+ Atk Samurott Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Ambipom: 43-52 (28.6 - 34.6%) -- 5.5% chance to 3HKO

 

There are still some pokemons that I didn't calculate, like Rotom Fan, Magmortar, Braviary, Pikachu and some UTs Offenses. But with that, you can have more than one base, with that we see that Ambipom is unhealthy against Offense, being able to beat everyone or almost everyone in 1v1 and win everyone during the match, if used correctly.

Edited December 11, 2022 by NiceRNGbro
aaa

[LifeStyleNORE]

One way for setup offensive mons to play around Ambipom is by running Protect (sometimes Substitute). I've seen things like Linoone and Lilligant in the past run Protect with some considerable success (honestly especially for Linoone I think it kinda became a staple). But while Protect can have other uses than just countering Fake Out, in general these mons are worse against the overall metagame, because they pretty much forfeit a 4th move just to deal with 1 threat.

 

Now do I think Ambipom is broken? No.

It clearly does what it's supposed to do, which is to annoy frail setup mons. It can be easily countered by lots of things, including Rocky Helmet Steelix, arguably one of the best defensive mons in the tier.

It takes damage from every sort of hazard and has pretty bad bulk, meaning it can't just switch around for free.

[caioxlive13]

2 hours ago, LifeStyleNORE said:

One way for setup offensive mons to play around Ambipom is by running Protect (sometimes Substitute). I've seen things like Linoone and Lilligant in the past run Protect with some considerable success (honestly especially for Linoone I think it kinda became a staple). But while Protect can have other uses than just countering Fake Out, in general these mons are worse against the overall metagame, because they pretty much forfeit a 4th move just to deal with 1 threat.

 

Now do I think Ambipom is broken? No.

It clearly does what it's supposed to do, which is to annoy frail setup mons. It can be easily countered by lots of things, including Rocky Helmet Steelix, arguably one of the best defensive mons in the tier.

It takes damage from every sort of hazard and has pretty bad bulk, meaning it can't just switch around for free.

They are wanting the ban on Ambipon because he are unhealty. Ambipon doesn't fit the Offensive-Uber charactheristic because a lot of walls can handle it. Also, don't fit the Support-Uber charactheristic because stall/balanced isn't favoured by ambipon, but the presence of those type of teams gets bigger because only walls and a few number of offenses can really check it. But Ambipon are problematic because he can invalidate Hyper offense(That have almost no answers to it). A single mon invalidating a entire playstyle is problematic.

[Sebat]

If I'm not bad an offensive counter to Ambipom is Aerodactyl, classic rocksetter to this playstyle and if you really hate Ambi you can use it with Pursuit to trap it or Roost to stay live your Aero.

 

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Ambipom Fake Out vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Aerodactyl: 39-47 (25 - 30.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Ambipom Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Aerodactyl: 66-79 (42.3 - 50.6%) -- 4.3% chance to 2HKO

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

252 Atk Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Ambipom: 103-123 (68.2 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Aerodactyl switching boosted Pursuit (80 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Ambipom: 56-66 (37 - 43.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

Also in NU exists a lots of DarkTypes Scarfer with access to Pursuit that you can include in your offensive to check Ambipom, like: Honchkrow(Moxie), Drapion, Houndoom, Absol. Obviously they are just checks because they need to switch-in clean but in an offensive thats enought imo.

 

[caioxlive13]

4 hours ago, Sebat said:

If I'm not bad an offensive counter to Ambipom is Aerodactyl, classic rocksetter to this playstyle and if you really hate Ambi you can use it with Pursuit to trap it or Roost to stay live your Aero.

 

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Ambipom Fake Out vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Aerodactyl: 39-47 (25 - 30.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Ambipom Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Aerodactyl: 66-79 (42.3 - 50.6%) -- 4.3% chance to 2HKO

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

252 Atk Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Ambipom: 103-123 (68.2 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Aerodactyl switching boosted Pursuit (80 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Ambipom: 56-66 (37 - 43.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

Also in NU exists a lots of DarkTypes Scarfer with access to Pursuit that you can include in your offensive to check Ambipom, like: Honchkrow(Moxie), Drapion, Houndoom, Absol. Obviously they are just checks because they need to switch-in clean but in an offensive thats enought imo.

 

Aerodactyl have a hard work to deal with ambipon. Also, you don't consider something. Unless ambipon are with low hp, he can pivot out with u-turn(Ambipon is slower so you can avoid pursuit extra dmg). And Aero's main role on Hyper Offense is set up rocks and faint after. With the sash broken and he trying to attack ambipon, taking some chip dmg, i doubt that they could do their job. Main problem is you need to guess if your opponent will switch directly or via u-turn. If via U-Turn, scarf pursuit is useless on the moment. Non-scarfs can take massive amount of damage to fake out + Return or DEdge. Also, Aero's set is usually: Rock-type STAB/Taunt/Rocks/Filler. You can include pursuit? yes. But then you're giving up from a potential double-edge, that can KO your aero and grants a safe switch to anything, or Tailwind to boost the speed of your mons. 

Also, ambipon uses triple normal stab, so it will prefer more a Silk Scarf than a Life Orb. -10% Base power but not take damage every turn that attacks.
 

Edited December 12, 2022 by caioxlive13

[Sebat]

7 hours ago, caioxlive13 said:

Aerodactyl have a hard work to deal with ambipon. Also, you don't consider something. Unless ambipon are with low hp, he can pivot out with u-turn(Ambipon is slower so you can avoid pursuit extra dmg). And Aero's main role on Hyper Offense is set up rocks and faint after. With the sash broken and he trying to attack ambipon, taking some chip dmg, i doubt that they could do their job. Main problem is you need to guess if your opponent will switch directly or via u-turn. If via U-Turn, scarf pursuit is useless on the moment. Non-scarfs can take massive amount of damage to fake out + Return or DEdge. Also, Aero's set is usually: Rock-type STAB/Taunt/Rocks/Filler. You can include pursuit? yes. But then you're giving up from a potential double-edge, that can KO your aero and grants a safe switch to anything, or Tailwind to boost the speed of your mons. 

Also, ambipon uses triple normal stab, so it will prefer more a Silk Scarf than a Life Orb. -10% Base power but not take damage every turn that attacks.
 

1. Why an Ambipom would use U-Turn in 1v1 against Aerodactyl, pursuit is useless you can't predict it.
2. Also I used LifeOrb instead of SilkScarf to do more damage, and make Ambipom more dangerous.

You assume a moveset on Aero when its not necessary, its resists his stab, its faster, its offensive, it has access to recovery move, it has access to pursuit to punish switch-out, tecnically its a counter.

Spoiler

from Tiering Definitions:

 

What is a Counter?

A pokemon that can switch into any move from an opposing pokemon under normal conditions with little to no risk to itself, and can reliably beat the pokemon it is countering. Counters can typically switch into the same pokemon multiple times, assuming they remain healthy. 

 

[CaptnBaklava]

All these sets assume that ambipom needs return or double edge, but if you run fire punch alot of stuff that should be able to stop it get in 2hko range quite easy while it's still able to fake out + quick attack kill most of NUs offensive staples. I allready said that it completely destroy the hyer offensive play style when it got access to quick attack in the gen 8 movepool update, yet we are here months later. 

 

A single Pokemon making a complete play style unplayable is just unhealthy for the game. 

Edited December 13, 2022 by CaptnBaklava
Wrote return instead of quick attack

[caioxlive13]

3 hours ago, CaptnBaklava said:

All these sets assume that ambipom needs return or double edge, but if you run fire punch alot of stuff that should be able to stop it get in 2hko range quite easy while it's still able to fake out + return kill most of NUs offensive staples. I allready said that it completely destroy the hyer offensive play style when it got access to quick attack in the gen 8 movepool update, yet we are here months later. 

 

A single Pokemon making a complete play style unplayable is just unhealthy for the game. 

Exactly. We've calced before only considering set with Triple Stab + U-turn. But, this mon have a big versatility. He can run moves to deal with their checks. Also, it's a single mon. How you can deal with the rest of team? For example: You can enter with Escavalier to pursuit trap Ambipon? Yes, you can. But, if you get predicted and ambipon pivot out(Directly or via U-turn), he can enter with, for example, Magneton Specs, trapping your mon and: 252+ SpA Choice Specs Magneton Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Escavalier: 392-464 (113.9 - 134.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO. Resuming for your escavalier: fainted. Basically isn't enough to you having a counter for ambipon, depending of rest of team that ambipon are, you need to place your mon correctly, at the exact moment that are possible(that will be few), otherwise you will lose it for free.

Edited December 13, 2022 by caioxlive13

[pachima]

I don't see it being a big problem in NU.
On closer inspection, there are many Rock/Steel types in the tier that can irritate him and make its life a living hell. It will irritate some offensive teams a bit, but nothing unheatable.

[PoseidonWrath]

On 12/11/2022 at 7:13 PM, LifeStyleNORE said:

Now do I think Ambipom is broken? No.

It clearly does what it's supposed to do, which is to annoy frail setup mons. It can be easily countered by lots of things, including Rocky Helmet Steelix, arguably one of the best defensive mons in the tier.

It takes damage from every sort of hazard and has pretty bad bulk, meaning it can't just switch around for free.

 

4 hours ago, pachima said:

I don't see it being a big problem in NU.
On closer inspection, there are many Rock/Steel types in the tier that can irritate him and make its life a living hell. It will irritate some offensive teams a bit, but nothing unheatable.

I pretty much agree with these statements about why Ambi isnt a problem in my eyes.

Keep in mind Ambi cant have 100 moves and since many people lock Fake out and Quick attack already, it will leave out some important moves.

 

Seed Bomb for: Golem/Quak/Golurk/Seismitoad/Omastar

 

Beat up/Pursuit for: Froslass/base form Rotom

 

U-Turn: is also a really important move to keep gaining momentum

 

Elemental Punches for: example Ice Punch for Altaria and Fire Punch for Escalavier/ Magneton/ Ferroseed

 

Return/Tail Slap/Double-Edge: really important power hitting stab moves to hit alot of mons.

 

Like its said Ambipom`s job to annoy HO and same can be said if a stall only player in OU says Togekiss is ruining the playstyle of stall in a unhealthy manner.

 

So to sum up my post in my eyes it`s Not Broken  (Feel free to change my mind)

 

Edited December 13, 2022 by PoseidonWrath