October 2022 Movement Discussion Thread

[suigin]

Staraptor has always historically been BL even with legendaries in lower tiers. Unless MMO finds the trick to dealing with it I can't see it not getting banned.

[caioxlive13]

20 minutes ago, suigin said:

Staraptor has always historically been BL even with legendaries in lower tiers. Unless MMO finds the trick to dealing with it I can't see it not getting banned.

On next month with the full list of HA we can discuss if staraptor will be broken or not. Maybe with a HA mon that can deal with staraptor, he can keep.

[NotMyWaifu]

56 minutes ago, Munya said:

What about starraptor, OU an appropriate place for it?

There's quite a lot in UU that can take its reckless boosted hits or CC and it really struggles with longevity in general, I think it'd be okay to test it there. Here's some quick calcs.

252 Atk Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 151-178 (38.4 - 45.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Reckless Staraptor Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Bronzong: 98-116 (28.9 - 34.3%) -- 99.5% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Staraptor Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Bronzong: 109-129 (32.2 - 38.1%) -- 1.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252 Atk Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 4+ Def Eviolite Dusclops: 108-127 (38 - 44.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

252 Atk Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mamoswine: 267-315 (73.9 - 87.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Staraptor Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mamoswine: 296-350 (81.9 - 96.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

252 Atk Staraptor Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Gigalith: 198-234 (52.9 - 62.5%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Gigalith Rock Blast (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Staraptor: 288-342 (92.6 - 109.9%) -- approx. 43.8% chance to OHKO

 

252 Atk Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Blastoise: 222-262 (74.2 - 87.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Blastoise Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Staraptor: 244-288 (78.4 - 92.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

252 Atk Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Donphan: 171-202 (44.5 - 52.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252 Atk Staraptor Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Umbreon: 168-198 (42.6 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Umbreon Foul Play vs. -1 0 HP / 4 Def Staraptor: 294-346 (94.5 - 111.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

 

252 Atk Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Forretress: 127-150 (35.8 - 42.3%) -- 93% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252 Atk Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 92+ Def Mandibuzz: 178-211 (42 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

I can still see it ending up in UUBL though, so maybe not yet.

[razimove]

22 minutes ago, NotMyWaifu said:

There's quite a lot in UU that can take its reckless boosted hits or CC and it really struggles with longevity in general, I think it'd be okay to test it there. Here's some quick calcs.

252 Atk Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 151-178 (38.4 - 45.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Reckless Staraptor Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Bronzong: 98-116 (28.9 - 34.3%) -- 99.5% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Staraptor Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Bronzong: 109-129 (32.2 - 38.1%) -- 1.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252 Atk Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 4+ Def Eviolite Dusclops: 108-127 (38 - 44.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

252 Atk Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mamoswine: 267-315 (73.9 - 87.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Staraptor Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mamoswine: 296-350 (81.9 - 96.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

252 Atk Staraptor Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Gigalith: 198-234 (52.9 - 62.5%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Gigalith Rock Blast (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Staraptor: 288-342 (92.6 - 109.9%) -- approx. 43.8% chance to OHKO

 

252 Atk Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Blastoise: 222-262 (74.2 - 87.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Blastoise Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Staraptor: 244-288 (78.4 - 92.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

252 Atk Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Donphan: 171-202 (44.5 - 52.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252 Atk Staraptor Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Umbreon: 168-198 (42.6 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Umbreon Foul Play vs. -1 0 HP / 4 Def Staraptor: 294-346 (94.5 - 111.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

 

252 Atk Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Forretress: 127-150 (35.8 - 42.3%) -- 93% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252 Atk Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 92+ Def Mandibuzz: 178-211 (42 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

I can still see it ending up in UUBL though, so maybe not yet.

Now, could you calc this, but with adamant? How come you calc blastoise with +spatk nature, but always neutral on staraptor? Also, can you try with choice band? No need to use multiple moves, lets just go with brave bird as staple for the calcs.

Edited October 17, 2022 by razimove

[Huargensy]

15 minutes ago, razimove said:

Ahora, ¿podría calcular esto, pero con firmeza? ¿Cómo es que calc blastoise con +spatk naturaleza, pero siempre neutral en staraptor? Además, ¿puedes probar con la banda de elección? No es necesario usar múltiples movimientos, solo usemos el pájaro valiente como elemento básico para los cálculos.

Toise shell smash usually goes modest, that's probably why he did it

[Munya]

We will be placing Staraptor pretty unanimously into OU.

[NotMyWaifu]

1 hour ago, razimove said:

Now, could you calc this, but with adamant? How come you calc blastoise with +spatk nature, but always neutral on staraptor? Also, can you try with choice band? No need to use multiple moves, lets just go with brave bird as staple for the calcs.

I assumed jolly + scarf on raptor given its base 100 speed.

[Havsha]

Not sure if this is known, but currently Transform won't copy stat changes from your opponent, which I'm pretty sure it is meant to. (It does on showdown at least)

e. At least with Imposter Ditto, haven't tested without imposter

Edited October 17, 2022 by Havsha

[TohnR]

2 hours ago, NotMyWaifu said:

There's quite a lot in UU that can take its reckless boosted hits or CC and it really struggles with longevity in general, I think it'd be okay to test it there. Here's some quick calcs.

You're calcing Scarf here. Now switch items to band and you'll see why it is problematic. I think it 2HKOs everything besides Bronzong which still gets badly weakened
While being faster than most of the meta, meh seems a bit too much

 

17 minutes ago, Havsha said:

Not sure if this is known, but currently Transform won't copy stat changes from your opponent, which I'm pretty sure it is meant to. (It does on showdown at least)

e. At least with Imposter Ditto, haven't tested without imposter

There's an other issue with Ditto, it can't copy Zoroark even after the disguise worn off (which is not supposed to happen)
Ofc the stat changes one is much more important to fix

 

Edited October 17, 2022 by TohnR

[Munya]

Both are known issues now yeah, thanks for letting me know regardless.

 

The stat part is imposter ditto only, transform the skill does copy stats but doesn't visually show it.

[DARKEN]

can anyone do nidoking calcs

[Munya]

11 minutes ago, DARKEN said:

can anyone do nidoking calcs

https://calc.pokemonshowdown.com/

[RysPicz]

1 hour ago, Munya said:

https://calc.pokemonshowdown.com/

That's pretty rare coming from you, but I genuinely laughed at that

 

1 hour ago, DARKEN said:

can anyone do nidoking calcs

For which tier?

[Munya]

14 minutes ago, RysPicz said:

That's pretty rare coming from you, but I genuinely laughed at that

 

I use it a fair bit, usually for comparing against what expected numbers should be in a bug reports, though I have found a few bugs on their as well so its not a 100% safe method.  Occasionally I'll also look up random things when big topics of discussion come up, not to partake in the discussion but more to answer my own curiosity, its a good tool.  I don't think I'd ever use it in the middle of a tournament or match though.

[RysPicz]

8 minutes ago, Munya said:

I use it a fair bit, usually for comparing against what expected numbers should be in a bug reports, though I have found a few bugs on their as well so its not a 100% safe method.  Occasionally I'll also look up random things when big topics of discussion come up, not to partake in the discussion but more to answer my own curiosity, its a good tool.  I don't think I'd ever use it in the middle of a tournament or match though.

Calcing is cheating after all

[Munya]

I'm not a fan but those are definitely Darkshades words not my own lol

 

I would say its a crutch that I would rather people not use if it were up to me.

[razimove]

I know that we're all hyped about new mons, about OU becoming a complete jungle and whatnot, serp being broken etc, but when is it time to finally discuss Dugtrio and how unhealthy it is, or when will it publicly be addressed by the TC?

[suigin]

When it becomes meta defining like every single other instance of it getting banned. It's just a matter of when it happens.

[Munya]

I've been told Quagsire is now a thing, thoughts?  Currently complexed like the others have been.

[gbwead]

Not broken, but should still be moved up imo.

[suigin]

Quagsire flipflops between bottom PU and OU depending on how it feels. Don't move it up, it will likely rise on its own but it won't be a defensive uber in NU.

[Edwardinho]

7 minutes ago, Munya said:

I've been told Quagsire is now a thing, thoughts?  Currently complexed like the others have been.

I guess that's fine, absorbing water is also a good ability. I guess it will continue to be a useful Pokémon in the Stall as always, nothing to other world(of course, in my nub opinon)

[gbwead]

I take back what I said, probably best to let it rise on its own.

[EmilioGarras]

Yep, Quag is not much of a threat with his current nor hidden ability. Let's see how much problems can cause in a few days. 

[caioxlive13]

38 minutes ago, EmilioGarras said:

Yep, Quag is not much of a threat with his current nor hidden ability. Let's see how much problems can cause in a few days. 

In OU not. In UU will help stall against most part of stallbreaks, especially Fera SD.

 

UU is better for quagsire. Not broken at all on NU but with a lot of stall teams on UU he will rise by itself.

Edited October 18, 2022 by caioxlive13