October 2022 Movement Discussion Thread

[EmilioGarras]

1 hour ago, caioxlive13 said:

In OU not. In UU will help stall against most part of stallbreaks, especially Fera SD.

 

UU is better for quagsire. Not broken at all on NU but with a lot of stall teams on UU he will rise by itself.

The problem for using Unaware Quagsire against Fera is that you no longer have water absorb, which makes you susceptible to a STAB Sheer Force Waterfall. 

 

With that said, if its necesary to move it to UU its ok. 

[razimove]

43 minutes ago, EmilioGarras said:

The problem for using Unaware Quagsire against Fera is that you no longer have water absorb, which makes you susceptible to a STAB Sheer Force Waterfall. 

 

With that said, if its necesary to move it to UU its ok. 

if quag is below 80%, with rocks on the field he can never really switch in safely vs ada feral aswell, so it's not as reliable, but it is indeed a good addition, and it does fill a good niche in the meta, I don't see a necessity to move it up from NU tbh, I'd let it naturally climb up.

[caioxlive13]

7 minutes ago, razimove said:

if quag is below 80%, with rocks on the field he can never really switch in safely vs ada feral aswell, so it's not as reliable, but it is indeed a good addition, and it does fill a good niche in the meta, I don't see a necessity to move it up from NU tbh, I'd let it naturally climb up.

Like i sayed. Not broken on NU but it will raise by himself to UU due to stall popularity on tier.

[Munya]

Sorry I'm late, Quag is being placed in UU for now.  This one wasn't as unanimous as the staraptor vote, a few at the very least acknowledged it would also be fine in NU.

 

Also over the last day or two, they weren't mentioned because nothing was deemed worthy to be moved from where it already was, the following have released:

Arcanine, Qwilfish, Mantine, Rapidash

[Munya]

Sableye has be released, if you have anything you wish to say about it.

[suigin]

Annoying, will likely move up on its own. I don't think it will require a manual move up yet. With this, Quag and Ditto we have some breathing room against a lot of the more annoying sweepers in the game. Hope we get Zam too as something you can stick in offense to soak up at least one hit.

[suigin]

Also question about Ditto and how it interacts with Hidden power. Assuming I fight a mon IV'd to have a certain HP and just having the move Hidden Power normally I assume I'll copy Hidden Power with it utilizing my own stats for the typing. But what if I fight someone who used gems to change it? Will it copy let's say Hidden Power Fire if they used them? What if I change my own Hidden Power type using gems on it?

[Munya]

It uses your own.  If you change your hidden power with gems, you will have whatever your HP is set to once it transforms.

[Thenavarro]

11 hours ago, caioxlive13 said:

En OU no. En UU ayudará a detenerse contra la mayoría de los stallbreaks, especialmente Fera SD.

 

UU es mejor para quagsire. No roto en absoluto en NU, pero con muchos equipos estancados en UU, se levantará solo.

Quag With absorbs water covers fera better for me, does not receive waterfall by stab and also has haze to remove the boost, with unneware receives waterfall damage that takes 50% with maximum roll, so if there is Stealth rock would die of 2 waterfall

[Thenavarro]

I do not understand why there are pokemons that at first glance upload it to OU (staraptor and nidoking) And leave feraligart in UU when it is clearly much more dangerous than those 2 pokemons 

[DiosSlurpuff]

Each day more canon.

[TohnR]

Tiering Quagsire in UU is questionable. There is absolutely no reason why the mon wouldn't be available in NU. 
For sure these mons could become used in UU (Ditto, Sableye, Quags) but their powerlevel doesn't justify it yet and their place in the metagame is unclear since they are facing a lot of competition from mons with higher stats capable of accomplishing similar tasks, considering that Quagsire without Water Absorb isn't a Feraligatr counter as it can only safely wall it with leftovers which means he doesn't ever damage Feral in return.

252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 87-105 (43 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

It for sure will be good against other mons such as Bisharp, Durant, Arcanine & Toxicroak but on that side there is already walls Donphan & Poliwrath that can fill similar roles. I don't see a reason to ban mons from their initial tiers if they are reasonable to use in said tiers unless we know for certain that they will rise within a short period of time.

Not a big deal tho for NU to lose those tho, I just wanted to have a word about it

Edited October 19, 2022 by TohnR

[caioxlive13]

2 hours ago, TohnR said:

Tiering Quagsire in UU is questionable. There is absolutely no reason why the mon wouldn't be available in NU. 
For sure these mons could become used in UU (Ditto, Sableye, Quags) but their powerlevel doesn't justify it yet and their place in the metagame is unclear since they are facing a lot of competition from mons with higher stats capable of accomplishing similar tasks, considering that Quagsire without Water Absorb isn't a Feraligatr counter as it can only safely wall it with leftovers which means he doesn't ever damage Feral in return.

252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 87-105 (43 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

It for sure will be good against other mons such as Bisharp, Durant, Arcanine & Toxicroak but on that side there is already walls Donphan & Poliwrath that can fill similar roles. I don't see a reason to ban mons from their initial tiers if they are reasonable to use in said tiers unless we know for certain that they will rise within a short period of time.

Not a big deal tho for NU to lose those tho, I just wanted to have a word about it

They are on UU because with Stall popularity on tier, Quag raise to UU aren't more a question of if will happen, and yes when will happen. Broken on NU , no.

[razimove]

1 hour ago, caioxlive13 said:

They are on UU because with Stall popularity on tier, Quag raise to UU aren't more a question of if will happen, and yes when will happen. Broken on NU , no.

I legit can't understand your reasoning, nor how is it relevant to their decision.

[caioxlive13]

4 minutes ago, razimove said:

I legit can't understand your reasoning, nor how is it relevant to their decision.

TohnR are wondering why Quagsire are on UU? I answered. Quagsire raise to UU isn't a question of it will happen or not, the doubt is when it will raise. Devs only speed up the process.

Edited October 19, 2022 by caioxlive13

[razimove]

9 minutes ago, caioxlive13 said:

TohnR are wondering why Quagsire are on UU? I answered. Quagsire raise to UU isn't a question of it will happen or not, the doubt is when it will raise. Devs only speed up the process.

why is it without a doubt? It's a good HA, but nothing that strong or game changing, his normal ability also would answer feral better, and a few other threats, I can see a few cases that might be worth to consider for him in UU and thats about it, like bisharp, maybe rotom heat if some NP variant doens't run hp grass. I legit don't see him picking up any usage after the initial possible hype.

Edited October 19, 2022 by razimove

[EmilioGarras]

I agree with Razi, Quagsire IMO works way better as a Water Absorber rather than Unaware if you are going to use it in UU (Which is why people started using poliwrath and gastrodon, to get the immunity of a Fera Waterfall). It's fine if for now its kept in UU but I don't see it lasting for too much time. Its a good HA, but not enough to make it broken.  

[caioxlive13]

25 minutes ago, EmilioGarras said:

I agree with Razi, Quagsire IMO works way better as a Water Absorber rather than Unaware if you are going to use it in UU (Which is why people started using poliwrath and gastrodon, to get the immunity of a Fera Waterfall). It's fine if for now its kept in UU but I don't see it lasting for too much time. Its a good HA, but not enough to make it broken.  

Fera is under suspect test. Maybe end banned from UU and Quagsire Unaware will be more valuable vs setup mons like bisharp. Also, i predict Rotom-Mow falling to NU if Fera gets banned. The only thing that he could check on tier is Gastrodon(Poliwrath most likely will drop, because their main role actually on UU is leave Fera on check.

Edited October 19, 2022 by caioxlive13

[CaptnBaklava]

15 minutes ago, caioxlive13 said:

Fera is under suspect test. Maybe end banned from UU and Quagsire Unaware will be more valuable vs setup mons like bisharp. Also, i predict Rotom-Mow falling to NU if Fera gets banned. The only thing that he could check on tier is Gastrodon(Poliwrath most likely will drop, because their main role actually on UU is leave Fera on check.

There is no way rotom mow will go to NU bro

[Thenavarro]

14 minutes ago, caioxlive13 said:

Fera está bajo prueba sospechosa. Tal vez termine prohibido en UU y Quagsire Unaware sea más valioso frente a monstruos de configuración como bisharp. Además, predigo que Rotom-Mow caerá ante NU si Fera es baneado. Lo único que podría verificar en el nivel es Gastrodon (lo más probable es que Poliwrath caiga, porque su función principal en realidad en UU es dejar a Fera bajo control.

Rotom mow In the UU it is very good water resist, very difficult to go down 

[EmilioGarras]

1 hour ago, caioxlive13 said:

Fera is under suspect test. Maybe end banned from UU and Quagsire Unaware will be more valuable vs setup mons like bisharp. Also, i predict Rotom-Mow falling to NU if Fera gets banned. The only thing that he could check on tier is Gastrodon(Poliwrath most likely will drop, because their main role actually on UU is leave Fera on check.

There ain't no way Rotom Mow will go down to NU. Even if Fera goes to OU which is debatable, I don't see Mow going down.

[gbwead]

I completly disagree with the implication that Water Absorb is more useful than Unaware in UU.

With Unaware, Quagsire is able to stop more threats and also doesn't need Haze to do so. An extra move for Quagsire is a big deal. Scald/EQ is a great coverage for Water Absorb Quagsire, but there is still a lot of walls (Vaporeon, Gastrodon, Slowbro, etc.) that can freely switch on it. The same can't be said about Unaware Quagsire with an extra utility move like Toxic, Yawn, Encore or w.e it may need. When Unaware comes into Rotom-Heat to stop a Volt Switch, it can do more than just Scald to force it out. Haze is no longer required to beat DD Flygon, Bulk Up Swampert, Bulk Up Medicham, DD or Bulk Up Scrafty, some Sigilyphs, Spiritomb Calm Mind, etc.

 

The only way Quagsire Water Absorb could beat Durant was with 116 SpAtk HP Fire. No one would ever run that shit in UU. Unaware beats Honeclaw Durant without any movepool or ev spread sacrifice. Water Absorb can't win vs Belly Drum Azumarill, Unaware Quagsire has great odds of beating it.

 

Unaware Quagsire can be a great security blanket for mons with a lot of boosts. Sometimes it's not possible to switch into a CB Krookodile and it's also not possible to sacrifice a mon because of Moxie. Quagsire can come RK Krook CB Moxie. A low HP +2 Mismagius can be revenge killed by Quagsire Unaware. Bisharp, Toxicroak and Rhyperior gain nothing from setting up if they are facing an Unaware Quagsire. That can be the difference between getting swept and only losing one mon sometimes.

Also, even though Water Absorb Quagsire with Haze has a better match up vs Fera, Unaware can still somewhat manage without even having to carry Haze in its movepool. 

 

Edited October 19, 2022 by gbwead

[Munya]

I'm about to start the voting on Sableye, expect the results from that sometime this evening, not sure if anybody has anything to say in regards to it since we went back to Quagsire.   Which isn't banned its just a preliminary placing

[caioxlive13]

26 minutes ago, gbwead said:

I completly disagree with the implication that Water Absorb is more useful than Unaware in UU.

With Unaware, Quagsire is able to stop more threats and also doesn't need Haze to do so. An extra move for Quagsire is a big deal. Scald/EQ is a great coverage for Water Absorb Quagsire, but there is still a lot of walls (Vaporeon, Gastrodon, Slowbro, etc.) that can freely switch on it. The same can't be said about Unaware Quagsire with an extra utility move like Toxic, Yawn, Encore or w.e it may need. When Unaware comes into Rotom-Heat to stop a Volt Switch, it can do more than just Scald to force it out. Haze is no longer required to beat DD Flygon, Bulk Up Swampert, Bulk Up Medicham, DD or Bulk Up Scrafty, Sigilyph Cosmic Power, Spiritomb Calm Mind, etc.

 

The only way Quagsire Water Absorb could beat Durant was with 116 SpAtk HP Fire. No one would ever run that shit in UU. Unaware beats Honeclaw Durant without any movepool or ev spread sacrifice. Water Absorb can't win vs Belly Drum Azumarill, Unaware Quagsire has great odds of beating it.

 

Unaware Quagsire can be a great security blanket for mons with a lot of boosts. Sometimes it's not possible to switch into a CB Krookodile and it's also not possible to sacrifice a mon because of Moxie. Quagsire can come RK Krook CB Moxie. A low HP +2 Mismagius can be revenge killed by Quagsire Unaware. Bisharp, Toxicroak and Rhyperior gain nothing from setting up if they are facing an Unaware Quagsire. That can be the difference between getting swept and only losing one mon sometimes.

Also, even though Water Absorb Quagsire with Haze has a better match up vs Fera, Unaware can still somewhat manage without even having to carry Haze in its movepool. 

 

Only thing that Unaware Quagsire will struggle is vs a Feraligatr. Not water absorb means that you will take the dangerous STAB Sheer Force Life Orb Waterfall. But again, Fera are on risk of getting banned and if gets, then Quagsire no longer need to fear him.

[EmilioGarras]

1 hour ago, Munya said:

I'm about to start the voting on Sableye, expect the results from that sometime this evening, not sure if anybody has anything to say in regards to it since we went back to Quagsire.   Which isn't banned its just a preliminary placing

Not really sure about sableye, I think it might be UU  since it has no weaknesses and now it has prankster (prio Will-o-Wisp), it wasn't much of a threat in NU before, but having prankster makes it more usable. Don't know, I think it will shine way better in doubles tho. 

Edited October 19, 2022 by EmilioGarras