[UU Discussion] Salamence

[DoubleJ]

  

 

What is this?

 

This thread is being opened to discuss Salamence being added to the UU tier by usage. Salamence most recently had a usage of 4.19% in OU, below the 4.36% cut-off allowed. Salamence will be considered for a possible ban to Borderline 1 using a suspect test.

 

What to know?

 

As with any pseudo-legendary, Salamence has significantly high stats which automatically positions it as a threat. Its typing and ability (Intimidate) allow for relatively easy defensive switches that allow it to take advantage of its impressive offensive stats and movepool. It can function as a sweeper (Choice Scarf, Dragon Dance), a wallbreaker (MixMence, Choice Band), or a defensive pivot (Defog). Its movepool creates nearly unopposed coverage and it can even heal with Roost. It has very few flaws, although notably a 4x weakness to Ice-type attacks and a weakness to Stealth Rocks.

 

Downsides include a reliance on powerful Special Attacks with mediocre accuracy like STAB Draco Meteor and Hurricane, as well as underpowered Physical Attacks like Dragon Claw, Brick Break, and Rock Slide. UU also has many reliable priority Ice-type attackers like Mamoswine and Donphan, although neither can take a hit from this behemoth. Revenge Kills would need to take advantage of the set and speed of Salamence, but could include priority Ice Shard users, such as Mamoswine or Donphan, Choice Scarf users, faster threats with strong attacks like Zoroark.

 

In OU, Salamence was largely displaced by a faster and more versatile Garchomp. In UU, its speed would be less a problem and more an advantage. It's versatility would be unrivaled and would be considered very dangerous for the tier.

 

Noteworthy sets?

 

Choice Scarf/Choice Band: Dragon Claw, Rock Slide, Brick Break, EQ/Flamethrower/Fire Blast (Jolly or Naive Nature)

MixMence: Draco Meteor, Flamethrower/Fire Blast, Brick Break, Roost/Rock Slide/EQ (Naive Nature with Life Orb or Dragon Gem)

Defensive: Dragon Pulse, Flamethrower, Roost, Defog (Timid or Bold Nature with Leftovers or Rocky Helmet)

 

Notable Checks or Counters?

 

Bronzong

Spoiler

0 Atk Bronzong Gyro Ball (79 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 49-58 (28.8 - 34.1%) -- 1.9% chance to 3HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Salamence Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bronzong: 43-51 (24.7 - 29.3%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Salamence Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bronzong: 78-94 (44.8 - 54%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Umbreon

Spoiler

252 Atk Umbreon Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 102-120 (60 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 Atk Umbreon Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 84-99 (49.4 - 58.2%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Salamence Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 78-94 (38.6 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Life Orb Salamence Brick Break vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Umbreon: 88-107 (43.5 - 52.9%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Salamence Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Umbreon: 86-101 (42.5 - 50%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Slowbro

Spoiler

0 SpA Slowbro Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Salamence: 164-196 (96.4 - 115.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

0 SpA Slowbro Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Salamence: 61-73 (35.8 - 42.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Salamence Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 62-74 (30.6 - 36.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Salamence Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro: 153-183 (75.7 - 90.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

 

Tentacruel

Spoiler

252 Atk Life Orb Salamence Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 96 Def Tentacruel: 113-134 (60.4 - 71.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

0 SpA Tentacruel Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Salamence: 136-164 (80 - 96.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252- SpA Life Orb Salamence Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 100 SpD Tentacruel: 91-109 (48.6 - 58.2%) -- 61.3% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

4 Atk Life Orb Salamence Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tentacruel: 179-213 (95.7 - 113.9%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

 

Gligar

Spoiler

252 SpA Life Orb Salamence Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 100 SpD Eviolite Gligar: 107-126 (62.2 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Salamence Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 156+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 47-56 (27.3 - 32.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Salamence Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 100 SpD Eviolite Gligar: 120-143 (69.7 - 83.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Dusclops

Spoiler

252 SpA Life Orb Salamence Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Dusclops: 52-62 (35.3 - 42.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Salamence Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Dusclops: 51-60 (34.6 - 40.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

Vaporeon

Spoiler

0 SpA Vaporeon Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Salamence: 176-208 (103.5 - 122.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Salamence Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Vaporeon: 133-157 (56.1 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Salamence Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 90-107 (37.9 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Jellicent

Spoiler

0 SpA Jellicent Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Salamence: 144-172 (84.7 - 101.1%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Salamence Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Jellicent: 125-148 (60.3 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Salamence Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 83-99 (40 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

Rhyperior

Spoiler

4 Atk Rhyperior Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 182-216 (107 - 127%) -- guaranteed OHKO

4 Atk Rhyperior Rock Blast (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 144-168 (84.7 - 98.8%) -- approx. 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Salamence Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rhyperior: 133-157 (59.9 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Salamence Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rhyperior: 74-87 (33.3 - 39.1%) -- 15% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Salamence Brick Break vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 70-84 (31.5 - 37.8%) -- 0.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Salamence Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Solid Rock Rhyperior: 226-269 (101.8 - 121.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

*Life Orb was used most commonly in calcs, although may not be representative of what will be most commonly used. Life Orb damage represents a medium for non-boosted attacks and attacks boosted with a Gem or Choice Band/Specs.

 

 

Please discuss.

[Umbramol]

The way you have presented calcs for a number of Pokemons is not very representative and a little misleading. For example against Vaporeon you show a 252 special attack life orb draco damage and below that you show a 252 dragon claw damage. If people add these damages up without paying attention to your spreads, there might be confusion about the capabilities of salamence. because it for example cannot break through Vaporeon and Umbreon but the way the calcs are presented, they show that it can. Because both these Pokemons are checks for salamence in my view. Jellicent also has the ability to check salamence in a mixed attacker scenario.

That being said I'm gonna need more games using and coming up against to give my full thoughts on it

[DoubleJ]

3 minutes ago, Umbramol said:

The way you have presented calcs for a number of Pokemons is not very representative and a little misleading. For example against Vaporeon you show a 252 special attack life orb draco damage and below that you show a 252 dragon claw damage. If people add these damages up without paying attention to your spreads, there might be confusion about the capabilities of salamence. because it for example cannot break through Vaporeon and Umbreon but the way the calcs are presented, they show that it can. Because both these Pokemons are checks for salamence in my view. Jellicent also has the ability to check salamence in a mixed attacker scenario.

That being said I'm gonna need more games using and coming up against to give my full thoughts on it

I'd hope folks don't have the assumption that Salamence is running 252 Attack and 252 SpAtt. It's simply a way to show the primary attacks on different sets with the goal that community members can do the second attack damage on their own. We can't go about having every single possible calc, or completely ignore one set for another.

[gbwead]

Gardevoir looks like the ideal counter tbh. Recover, Ice Beam, Intimidate, High SpDef. It got everything. The main problem is probably that Gardevoir isn't that viable in UU...

Edited December 1, 2022 by gbwead

[OrangeManiac]

While I'm on the opinion that MixMence is a little bit too much for UU to handle, or at the very least needs very specific Pokemon to be dealt with, I still think it's a bit of a problem we have 4 UU discussion threats simultaneously open focusing on their role in the "current" UU tier. For example, P2 would be an excellent counter to Salamence if deemed worthy to be tested in UU. I don't have a strong opinion about P2 and I don't wanna derail the discussion towards that but I think some of the discussions probably need to be "resolved" before some of the new UU discussion can properly begin.

[DoubleJ]

28 minutes ago, OrangeManiac said:

While I'm on the opinion that MixMence is a little bit too much for UU to handle, or at the very least needs very specific Pokemon to be dealt with, I still think it's a bit of a problem we have 4 UU discussion threats simultaneously open focusing on their role in the "current" UU tier. For example, P2 would be an excellent counter to Salamence if deemed worthy to be tested in UU. I don't have a strong opinion about P2 and I don't wanna derail the discussion towards that but I think some of the discussions probably need to be "resolved" before some of the new UU discussion can properly begin.

Soon.

[Munya]

We've had a tournament now, any opinions out of anybody yet?

[gbwead]

I was expecting Salamence to be better. I'm kind of disappointed. Still very strong, but not as broken as I thought it would be.

[RysPicz]

@SweeTforU noone from peple I know plays as much Salamence with so many diff sets as you do, what do you think?

[caioxlive13]

16 hours ago, gbwead said:

I was expecting Salamence to be better. I'm kind of disappointed. Still very strong, but not as broken as I thought it would be.

Well, while it doesn't have Moxie, ok let him on UU.

[gbwead]

9 minutes ago, caioxlive13 said:

Well, while it doesn't have Moxie, ok let him on UU.

why is your comment directed at me?

[Munya]

Please stop mentioning hidden abilities and move updates that don't exist/haven't happened yet in discussion threads, once they are dropped go for it but they are entirely irrelevant until the time at which they drop and only serve to clutter a thread with pointless discussion or theorizing for something that may not exist for a long time, we do not know.

[SweeTforU]

23 hours ago, RysPicz said:

@SweeTforU noone from peple I know plays as much Salamence with so many diff sets as you do, what do you think?

not broken!!

[Bertolfoso]

Season Finales are in a few days, has TC come to a conclusion yet?

[Munya]

The couple that have responded since I asked after seeing this question seem to be thinking its fine so far so you'll likely have it for the seasonals, unless everybody else who hasn't said anything yet are all against it.

[caioxlive13]

A question: Now we can see any reliable answer on UU to mence, that we didn't noticed before? At this point this question can be answered.
If mamoswine was one of them, well: 

(This is OU Usage table. as we can see, Mamoswine currently are above cut-off.)

Edited December 19, 2022 by caioxlive13

[caioxlive13]

Mence's Discussion ended. It got moxie, absolutely no way this mon can keep on UU.

[Munya]

It never had a chance, moved up due to gaining its hidden ability Moxie.  Closing this discussion and the related suspect.