Munya Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 Going into the final month of the season, 2.5% usage and lower to go down, 6 and up to move up. Nothing changes. The Dugtrio vote will also be concluding on the 29th, at which point I will post here the verdict on it, if anyone still wants to try and sway votes you can do so here: I have also opened up the review on the Vaporeon ban since we got sidetracked on the reviews, and its a relevant mon based on usage drops currently. SnowMoon 1 Link to comment
vaguelylistless Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 (edited) What caused the margin to rise/drop to increase/decrease respectively? Last month it was 5.5% and up to move up, 3% and below to go down. Was this change due to the LNY event? I was really cooking up a storm for the likely NU drops (given the previous drop percentage) but eh, that's water under the bridge. E: Speaking on the Vaporeon retest, I am still not sure if I would agree on having it back in the tier. Sure, we have our bulky waters like Mantine, Milotic, Quag, Alo or Quil (etc) but they all have exploitable weaknesses that makes them manageable within the tier like not having overwhelming bulk, reliable recovery and incredible utility unlike Vaporeon. With 130/60/90 Bulk you are able reliably take on a vast amount of threats that reside in the tier, along with being about to wish-pass and stack CMs make it seem like an overwhelming threat akin to having Suicine drop to UU. For Vaporeon to be somewhat manageable in NU, you would need to have a ton of drops occur at a time. Edited February 25 by vaguelylistless Link to comment
Godhelll Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 Please, can you open a thread regarding Gallade ? skyluxNG, BernardZhenga, LeJovi and 7 others 1 9 Link to comment
Imperial Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 2 hours ago, vaguelylistless said: What caused the margin to rise/drop to increase/decrease respectively? Last month it was 5.5% and up to move up, 3% and below to go down. Was this change due to the LNY event? I was really cooking up a storm for the likely NU drops (given the previous drop percentage) but eh, that's water under the bridge. E: Speaking on the Vaporeon retest, I am still not sure if I would agree on having it back in the tier. Sure, we have our bulky waters like Mantine, Milotic, Quag, Alo or Quil (etc) but they all have exploitable weaknesses that makes them manageable within the tier like not having overwhelming bulk, reliable recovery and incredible utility unlike Vaporeon. With 130/60/90 Bulk you are able reliably take on a vast amount of threats that reside in the tier, along with being about to wish-pass and stack CMs make it seem like an overwhelming threat akin to having Suicine drop to UU. For Vaporeon to be somewhat manageable in NU, you would need to have a ton of drops occur at a time. The margin got changed because with the previous usage statistics it caused a lot of Pokemon to Yo-Yo between UU and NU respectively. By changing the usage as it is currently thanks to @gbwead and others, the lower tiers are now a lot more stable with 'major' changes only occurring on the third month instead. Regarding Vaporeon, unless I misunderstood what you said, you're unable to pass stat changes on MMO. The main issue with Vaporeon was its combination of incredible bulk being able to handle the majority of physical threats in the tier who couldn't switch in safely in case of a Scald burn, decent special attack, its Wish + Protect combination (considering the fact that other recovery moves are nerfed) and the moveset of Toxic/Heal Bell pressuring other mons. There's nothing in the tier that has changed since Vaporeon was banned so in my opinion I don't think this should be unbanned. Milotic is a bulky wall, but Vaporeon + Wish was the main issue personally. epicdavenport, Patrouski2 and vaguelylistless 2 1 Link to comment
Godhelll Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 (edited) It's funny how the worst players, and those who play the least, find nothing to complain about Gallade. It’s really surprising! (could that be a joke or any coincidence? ) In the meantime, the best players are rightly complaining about it with proofs and demonstrations (as we have already seen on previous topics concerning Gallade) Edited February 25 by Godhelll Doctor 1 Link to comment
Munya Posted February 25 Author Share Posted February 25 After some consideration, it would be irresponsible to drop Vaporeon(assuming its even voted to be tested, no vote has been had) during the seasonal month so if it happened it wouldn't be this month. RysPicz, Godhelll, Shadow and 2 others 5 Link to comment
Doctor Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 13 minutes ago, Godhelll said: It's funny how the worst players, and those who play the least, find nothing to complain about Gallade. It’s really surprising! (could that be a joke or any coincidence? ) In the meantime, the best players are rightly complaining about it with proofs and demonstrations (as we have already seen on previous topics concerning Gallade) You forgot to mention good players that use it so they don't want it banned so they can keep abusing it like it happened with Hydreigon Godhelll and Zuladra 2 Link to comment
caioxlive13 Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 (edited) 23 minutes ago, Godhelll said: It's funny how the worst players, and those who play the least, find nothing to complain about Gallade. It’s really surprising! (could that be a joke or any coincidence? ) In the meantime, the best players are rightly complaining about it with proofs and demonstrations (as we have already seen on previous topics concerning Gallade) And i'm still waiting for @Doctor to show the rolls where Gallade will get a KO on 1,5x Sharpness that it wouldn't on 1,4x Sharpness. He sayed that 6,7% rolls make difference and i want to see the difference. Just a reminder, absolutely 0 people claimed 1,3x Sharpness Gallade or 1,4x Sharpness Gallade was broken. Edited February 25 by caioxlive13 Doctor 1 Link to comment
Godhelll Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 23 minutes ago, caioxlive13 said: And i'm still waiting for @Doctor to show the rolls where Gallade will get a KO on 1,5x Sharpness that it wouldn't on 1,4x Sharpness. He sayed that 6,7% rolls make difference and i want to see the difference. Just a reminder, absolutely 0 people claimed 1,3x Sharpness Gallade or 1,4x Sharpness Gallade was broken. On the contrary, I know people who complain about Gallade, but it's certain that we won't see them talking about it on a topic that doesn't exist Doctor 1 Link to comment
caioxlive13 Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 36 minutes ago, Godhelll said: On the contrary, I know people who complain about Gallade, but it's certain that we won't see them talking about it on a topic that doesn't exist if there is no topic for people to complain about 1,3x Gallade or 1,4x Gallade they could do the regular procedure and ask for a lookup on the OU Tier Discussion Thread. Link to comment
RysPicz Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 44 minutes ago, Godhelll said: On the contrary, I know people who complain about Gallade, but it's certain that we won't see them talking about it on a topic that doesn't exist Many of us stopped discussing because, to put it simple, we are not being listened to. And because of Caio but that's a totally different can of worms I thought that the Gallade's reverse nerf was an omen of some new mons/ HAs coming into the game, I had an impression that there's a plan behind it. Oh well Shadow, Godhelll, DoubleJ and 6 others 6 1 1 1 Link to comment
caioxlive13 Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 18 minutes ago, RysPicz said: Many of us stopped discussing because, to put it simple, we are not being listened to. And because of Caio but that's a totally different can of worms I thought that the Gallade's reverse nerf was an omen of some new mons/ HAs coming into the game, I had an impression that there's a plan behind it. Oh well The 1,3x nerf coming was expected because it was stated on policy. About the reverse nerfing, you were asking to wrong persons, asking to devs to undo it. They wouldn't. You has to ask to TC to take actions on things if they're too much for the meta. And they even stated on announcement: The goal of the nerf policy is to nerf as little as possible to make the mon acceptable. And if they were to nerf without care to that, they would straight forward remove sharpness and send it back to NU. Link to comment
JurassicMick Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 53 minutes ago, caioxlive13 said: . You has to ask to TC to take actions on things if they're too much for the meta. Have you seen that new series called Gallade Fiasco? It's a pretty interesting show about how some guys discussed for around two weeks a possible solution for a problem that they shouldn't have and then some big guys decided to reverse what they agree with vaguelylistless, RysPicz, Godhelll and 1 other 4 Link to comment
VadimEmpoleon Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 Why not test Rhyperior in NU? It had a low usage for several months in UU, it has a high attack and defense but it is slow and has 2 x4 weaknesses. Godhelll, epicdavenport and TohnR 2 1 Link to comment
Munya Posted February 25 Author Share Posted February 25 Rhyperior was discussed/reviewed near the end of last month and was decided to be kept BL. Link to comment
vaguelylistless Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 5 hours ago, Imperial said: The margin got changed because with the previous usage statistics it caused a lot of Pokemon to Yo-Yo between UU and NU respectively. By changing the usage as it is currently thanks to @gbwead and others, the lower tiers are now a lot more stable with 'major' changes only occurring on the third month instead. Regarding Vaporeon, unless I misunderstood what you said, you're unable to pass stat changes on MMO. The main issue with Vaporeon was its combination of incredible bulk being able to handle the majority of physical threats in the tier who couldn't switch in safely in case of a Scald burn, decent special attack, its Wish + Protect combination (considering the fact that other recovery moves are nerfed) and the moveset of Toxic/Heal Bell pressuring other mons. There's nothing in the tier that has changed since Vaporeon was banned so in my opinion I don't think this should be unbanned. Milotic is a bulky wall, but Vaporeon + Wish was the main issue personally. I think you might have misunderstood me. I know that dry-passing is the rule but what I was implying is basically in agreement with what you have said. Vaporeon would be too overwhelming for NU given its current state. Don't forget that Vaporeon, as apart of the updated SV learnsets, now has access to CM so it can literally function like a bulky set-up sweeper akin to Suicine in OU. Link to comment
Ziiiiio Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 Maybe I missed something but I dont find where is the discussion about Sharpness change back to 1.5. all in all is that a closed discussion which means we wont do anything about it in the future Godhelll 1 Link to comment
Godhelll Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 5 minutes ago, Ziiiiio said: Maybe I missed something but I dont find where is the discussion about Sharpness change back to 1.5. all in all is that a closed discussion which means we wont do anything about it in the future It's sad. Moreover, when we see the reaction of the noobs on my first comment when I mention the problem of Gallade in game, and that they are happy that nothing is done, it shows the color regarding the level of stupidity that we can see in the perimeter xd Doctor and Ziiiiio 1 1 Link to comment
Ziiiiio Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 6小时前，caioxlive13 说： And i'm still waiting for @Doctor to show the rolls where Gallade will get a KO on 1,5x Sharpness that it wouldn't on 1,4x Sharpness. He sayed that 6,7% rolls make difference and i want to see the difference. Just a reminder, absolutely 0 people claimed 1,3x Sharpness Gallade or 1,4x Sharpness Gallade was broken. In fact alot, I will just write something I remenber +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpness Gallade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 222-263 (102.3 - 121.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpness Gallade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 207-243 (96.2 - 113%) -- 75% chance to OHKO +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpness Gallade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Metagross: 192-227 (102.6 - 121.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO 252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpness Gallade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 161-191 (90.9 - 107.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO Scarf ssowrd 2 hits kills Starmie 252+ Atk Sharpness Gallade Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Starmie: 69-82 (51.1 - 60.7%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery And ssword + shadow sneak kills Serp and Kingdra, that usually happend on AV gallade. Psycut+shadow sneak kills volcarona as well As you can see it's alot and it's not done yet INeedHelp3000, Doctor and Godhelll 1 1 1 Link to comment
gbwead Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 7 hours ago, caioxlive13 said: And i'm still waiting for @Doctor to show the rolls where Gallade will get a KO on 1,5x Sharpness that it wouldn't on 1,4x Sharpness. He sayed that 6,7% rolls make difference and i want to see the difference. Just a reminder, absolutely 0 people claimed 1,3x Sharpness Gallade or 1,4x Sharpness Gallade was broken. Who the fuck cares? Even if someone bothers to show you thousand of calcs where Sharpness 1.5 gets KOs that 1.4 doesn't get, it would still not matter. If tomorrow Seismic Toss goes from 50 dmg to 100 dmg, it would still not KO anything, but everyone would complain that the move is broken. Doctor, Godhelll and Shadow 2 1 Link to comment
Stokes Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 Swampert to Nu 💀 INeedHelp3000 and Necroze 1 1 Link to comment
INeedHelp3000 Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 28 minutes ago, Ziiiiio said: In fact alot, I will just write something I remenber +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpness Gallade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 222-263 (102.3 - 121.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpness Gallade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 207-243 (96.2 - 113%) -- 75% chance to OHKO +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpness Gallade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Metagross: 192-227 (102.6 - 121.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO 252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpness Gallade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 161-191 (90.9 - 107.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO Scarf ssowrd 2 hits kills Starmie 252+ Atk Sharpness Gallade Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Starmie: 69-82 (51.1 - 60.7%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery And ssword + shadow sneak kills Serp and Kingdra, that usually happend on AV gallade. Psycut+shadow sneak kills volcarona as well As you can see it's alot and it's not done yet Sword dance, kill something, and get killed by something faster right after, not to mention how hard is to setup with a 68 Hp 65 def mon. He's more like a life orb attacker who some times setup against a chansey Doctor and Ziiiiio 2 Link to comment
caioxlive13 Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 (edited) 1 hour ago, INeedHelp3000 said: Sword dance, kill something, and get killed by something faster right after, not to mention how hard is to setup with a 68 Hp 65 def mon. He's more like a life orb attacker who some times setup against a chansey People treat gallade like you should wall it to win. That's not the case. Gallade is a wallbreak, it's meant to break every wall that would be trying to hold you. To win vs it you has to outoffense it and with the poor physical bulk and Psychic/Fighting not providing that many resistances and 0 immunitys(It's a great offensive type but not defensively, one basically cancels the resistances of the other. ) , it's not that hard to actuallt Break it. 80s is not a great speed tier, it's mid, so either you use Scarf which give free turns to opponents, which is deadly when the meta is revolved around Offense, or you won't outspeed a lot. My team for reference, the only thing slower than Gallade without Scarf, is Scizor. And he has prioritys anyways. Basically Gallade cannot enter on my team, everything outspeed it. Not even on the Special Attackers he can, because The special attackers have huge threats to gallade like Serperior that is game over if snowballs, Zapdos has discharge which can para it, and Suicune has a Scald to burn it. So even having a good special bulk is not helping it. Edited February 26 by caioxlive13 Link to comment
Doctor Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 28 minutes ago, caioxlive13 said: People treat gallade like you should wall it to win. That's not the case. Gallade is a wallbreak, it's meant to break every wall that would be trying to hold you. To win vs it you has to outoffense it and with the poor physical bulk and Psychic/Fighting not providing that many resistances and 0 immunitys(It's a great offensive type but not defensively, one basically cancels the resistances of the other. ) , it's not that hard to actuallt Break it. 80s is not a great speed tier, it's mid, so either you use Scarf which give free turns to opponents, which is deadly when the meta is revolved around Offense, or you won't outspeed a lot. My team for reference, the only thing slower than Gallade without Scarf, is Scizor. And he has prioritys anyways. Basically Gallade cannot enter on my team, everything outspeed it. Not even on the Special Attackers he can, because The special attackers have huge threats to gallade like Serperior that is game over if snowballs, Zapdos has discharge which can para it, and Suicune has a Scald to burn it. So even having a good special bulk is not helping it. What is so hard to understand about the fact that if Gallade enters into something it threatens, you're almost guaranteed to lose a Pokémon on the switch, pretty similar to the problem Hydreigon created? It's not that people want to kill it by walling it, it's about the fact that nothing in the OU metagame can switch into it safely or without taking heavy damage that can then guarantee a KO from a teammate. And like gb said, it's not that there aren't a million calcs to prove what I said, it's that it's pointless to show you because you'll go on a tangent and completely miss the point even when confronted when objective truths like when you obsessed about Empoleon not being good because it's a UU mon. Any other mon I'd accept that there's room for discussion, but Gallade has been talked about and agreed upon it being too much for our current metagame with its coverage, its damage output and the availability of different builds. Which is what Godhelll was mentioning. And it's always people who don't understand the meta + don't play enough games at a high enough elo who think that a mon that basically forces you to lose a piece from your team no matter what is somewhat tolerable. Hydreigon had a million checks in the meta, and it had to go for this exact reason: on first encounter, you'd be almost always losing a mon to it due to how hard it hits; no matter if it was because it chipped your pivots enough so that others could take them, or if it was because its set was unknown until it made a move. 1,5x Sharpness has no place in this meta, period. 1,3x was fine since it more or less acted like Hustle in a way, 1,4x was a bit too much to take on some 2HKO scenarios. And this is the last time I'm gonna respond to your schizoposting about it because there's obviously no point in giving you any argument, you'll just derail and start yapping about how whatever niche mon six seasons ago was somewhat similar or something like that. ricochang, gbwead, LiIith and 5 others 6 2 Link to comment
JurassicMick Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 3 hours ago, INeedHelp3000 said: Sword dance, kill something, and get killed by something faster right after, not to mention how hard is to setup with a 68 Hp 65 def mon. He's more like a life orb attacker who some times setup against a chansey Double set-up sets have been working wonders for a lot of players tho. Also you're forgetting its SpD, 115 SpD is more than enough to get a chance to setup Sawwario 1 Link to comment
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