Jump to content
  • 4

PLEASE Update Knock Off


LunarEdge

Question

Basically I don't understand why it hasn't been updated to how it is in recent games, at this moment having knock off is practically a total waste of a move slot, it is still a 20 power move even when in the official games its 65 and it multiplies up to 1.5 when the target is holding an item, its just a power tweak. This would make knock off a GOOD move to have in consideration when deciding on your move pool, and I know it's not because it's not on the game files, they added reactive gas and sharpness to the game, so maybe knock off was just overlooked, unlike outrage that was nerfed from 120 to 90, that wasn't ignored I guess.

So I just want to know if there is any reason to why knock off hasn't been updated.

Thank you for your time to whoever reading this post Screenshot_34.png.3f47c796db93b71a87f92fd263444d4f.png

Screenshot_33.png

Link to comment

18 answers to this question

Recommended Posts

  • 0
1 hour ago, LunarEdge said:

Basically I don't understand why it hasn't been updated to how it is in recent games, at this moment having knock off is practically a total waste of a move slot, it is still a 20 power move even when in the official games its 65 and it multiplies up to 1.5 when the target is holding an item, its just a power tweak. This would make knock off a GOOD move to have in consideration when deciding on your move pool, and I know it's not because it's not on the game files, they added reactive gas and sharpness to the game, so maybe knock off was just overlooked, unlike outrage that was nerfed from 120 to 90, that wasn't ignored I guess.

So I just want to know if there is any reason to why knock off hasn't been updated.

One, big main reason. Fairy types

Link to comment
  • 0

Knock Off is one of the most broken moves ever created. It was a gigantic mistake even on its time but we need to remember that Knock Off always existed in an era where reliably at least one Pokemon could hold an item that couldn't be knocked off. In gen 6, it was mega stones. In gen 7, it was teracrystals. Even having a somewhat reliable switch-in to Knock Off made it still stupidly broken and the most splashable move the game has ever had. Also, like Forfi said the buffed Knock Off has never existed without Fairy-type. All things put together, Knock Off is stupidly broken anyways but we're lacking the few things that can even somewhat keep it from becoming the most brainless and spammable move in the game's history. That's why it's reasonable Knock Off was never touched and updated to newer gen mechanics, unlike many other moves.

Link to comment
  • 0
2 hours ago, SakuyaZ said:

Please release fariy type at the same time 🙂

As much as fairy types are cool, I honestly don't see a reason for MMO to implement this unless they ever decide to introduce gen 6 mons & moves alongside adjusting the steel weakness/resistance chart. Right now the main fairy types we would get would be...

  • Clefairy/Clefable
  • Azumarill
  • Gardevoir
  • Togekiss
  • Granbull
  • Wigglytuff
  • Ninetales
  • Mr Mime
  • Mawile
  • Whimsicott
  • (and maybe a few more?)

From a PvP perspective, the main meta influencing Pokemon would be Clefable (will likely see a significant increase in usage for OU to deal with dragons), Togekiss, Azumarill and potentially Whimsicott for doubles. I don't really see many mons that would benefit from a PvE perspective.

 

I feel there aren't really any benefits for adding Fairy types right now, and Orange perfectly explained the issue with Knock Off (e.g. In the newer gens CB Crawdaunt with Knock Off is insane, for example).

Link to comment
  • 0
On 4/7/2024 at 1:47 AM, Imperial said:

As much as fairy types are cool, I honestly don't see a reason for MMO to implement this unless they ever decide to introduce gen 6 mons & moves alongside adjusting the steel weakness/resistance chart. Right now the main fairy types we would get would be...

  • Clefairy/Clefable
  • Azumarill
  • Gardevoir
  • Togekiss
  • Granbull
  • Wigglytuff
  • Ninetales
  • Mr Mime
  • Mawile
  • Whimsicott
  • (and maybe a few more?)

From a PvP perspective, the main meta influencing Pokemon would be Clefable (will likely see a significant increase in usage for OU to deal with dragons), Togekiss, Azumarill and potentially Whimsicott for doubles. I don't really see many mons that would benefit from a PvE perspective.

 

I feel there aren't really any benefits for adding Fairy types right now, and Orange perfectly explained the issue with Knock Off (e.g. In the newer gens CB Crawdaunt with Knock Off is insane, for example).

Ninetales is not Fairy. At least not in MMO (we do not have the Alolan version), so it makes your list a little thinner.

Link to comment
  • 0
On 4/6/2024 at 8:47 PM, Imperial said:

As much as fairy types are cool, I honestly don't see a reason for MMO to implement this unless they ever decide to introduce gen 6 mons & moves alongside adjusting the steel weakness/resistance chart. Right now the main fairy types we would get would be...

  • Clefairy/Clefable
  • Azumarill
  • Gardevoir
  • Togekiss
  • Granbull
  • Wigglytuff
  • Ninetales
  • Mr Mime
  • Mawile
  • Whimsicott
  • (and maybe a few more?)

From a PvP perspective, the main meta influencing Pokemon would be Clefable (will likely see a significant increase in usage for OU to deal with dragons), Togekiss, Azumarill and potentially Whimsicott for doubles. I don't really see many mons that would benefit from a PvE perspective.

 

I feel there aren't really any benefits for adding Fairy types right now, and Orange perfectly explained the issue with Knock Off (e.g. In the newer gens CB Crawdaunt with Knock Off is insane, for example).

What about a Knock Off slighty buff? Like, to 40 BP? I believe it still won't be broken, as at best it became a 60 BP with stab or item removal boost, 90 BP with both, and 90 BP already considering stab is not a huge deal. Sure, removing items is great, but with Knock off also exists Trick and Switcheroo with simmilar functions and the bonus of giving a mon a (usually) bad item. The only mon that can really abuse highly from that is Scizor, because the move will be 90 BP for him, rarely being 60, but if becames too broken we can deal with it by a single ban. It will still be the move balanced we know, and with some offenses with enough power being able to use it.

Edited by caioxlive13
Link to comment
  • 0
On 4/2/2024 at 6:26 PM, OrangeManiac said:

Knock Off is one of the most broken moves ever created. It was a gigantic mistake even on its time but we need to remember that Knock Off always existed in an era where reliably at least one Pokemon could hold an item that couldn't be knocked off. In gen 6, it was mega stones. In gen 7, it was teracrystals. Even having a somewhat reliable switch-in to Knock Off made it still stupidly broken and the most splashable move the game has ever had. Also, like Forfi said the buffed Knock Off has never existed without Fairy-type. All things put together, Knock Off is stupidly broken anyways but we're lacking the few things that can even somewhat keep it from becoming the most brainless and spammable move in the game's history. That's why it's reasonable Knock Off was never touched and updated to newer gen mechanics, unlike many other moves.

That's a fair take, that still doesn't explain why outrage is not 120 power like in the base games and instead it's 90 base power, barely 10 more power than dragon claw and with the drawbacks of using it it's just not worth it, it's not like we have access to Kyurem Black, the most braindead outrage spammer that doesn't care about resists, or swords dance Garchomp on singles etc... the only big damage boi we have on dragons is haxorus, and, well lets say he has little to no place in OU, he is too slow compared to any other dragon, it is too frail for OU meta and too broken for UU, sad situation.

Link to comment
  • 0
52 minutes ago, LunarEdge said:

That's a fair take, that still doesn't explain why outrage is not 120 power like in the base games and instead it's 90 base power, barely 10 more power than dragon claw and with the drawbacks of using it it's just not worth it, it's not like we have access to Kyurem Black, the most braindead outrage spammer that doesn't care about resists, or swords dance Garchomp on singles etc... the only big damage boi we have on dragons is haxorus, and, well lets say he has little to no place in OU, he is too slow compared to any other dragon, it is too frail for OU meta and too broken for UU, sad situation.

Outrage is 90 BP in PokeMMO, because it's buff was idiotic and made dragons powerful to a degree that they had to introduce the fairy type in Gen6. Having 120 base power Outrage in MMO would be horrible for all of the metagames, regardless if it's singles or doubles.

 

While I do not agree with most decisions made by the dev team, like buffing Gallade and fucking around with it's ability or nerfing Wabba, this is a good decision from their side. As long as we will not have Gen6+ mechanics and pokes, we should never have 120bp Outrage.

Link to comment
  • 0
2 hours ago, LunarEdge said:

That's a fair take, that still doesn't explain why outrage is not 120 power like in the base games and instead it's 90 base power, barely 10 more power than dragon claw and with the drawbacks of using it it's just not worth it, it's not like we have access to Kyurem Black, the most braindead outrage spammer that doesn't care about resists, or swords dance Garchomp on singles etc... the only big damage boi we have on dragons is haxorus, and, well lets say he has little to no place in OU, he is too slow compared to any other dragon, it is too frail for OU meta and too broken for UU, sad situation.

Would be cool if we had a 100 BP outrage at least, ou is becoming really defensive with every new update (regenerator neutralizing gas weezing Zapdos suicune, heatran jirachi and celebi in the future), and now most of the high elo players are playing defensive teams. We are not seeing any relevant wallbreaker being add any time soon, so a 10 point damage increase in this move would be a interesting way to test if it can help, way better than gallade I think

Link to comment
  • 0
2 hours ago, SuperBXdanielo said:

Would be cool if we had a 100 BP outrage at least, ou is becoming really defensive with every new update (regenerator neutralizing gas weezing Zapdos suicune, heatran jirachi and celebi in the future), and now most of the high elo players are playing defensive teams..

Or develop an Stockfish to MMO battles, and start using it on ladder because against the high-rated players you has to play perfectly. A slighty innacuracy and he won. At least until now, an IA developed to calculate the best move in a battle is not against any rules since on ladder and on official tours for some reason Coaching is not forbidden. And only official tours, all unofficial ones bans coaching.

Edited by caioxlive13
Link to comment
  • 0
11 hours ago, caioxlive13 said:

Or develop an Stockfish to MMO battles, and start using it on ladder because against the high-rated players you has to play perfectly. A slighty innacuracy and he won. At least until now, an IA developed to calculate the best move in a battle is not against any rules since on ladder and on official tours for some reason Coaching is not forbidden. And only official tours, all unofficial ones bans coaching.

There's just so much wrong with this. You clearly have no clue how chess A.I. works and why it isn't applicable to a game like Pokemon. In chess, A.I. can use raw calculating power to calculate every reasonable line to come up with "the best possible move". In Pokemon, there's way too much variability from RNG damage ranges to secondary effects to actually playing the psychological mindgames against your opponent, which they can more easily beat if they know they are playing against a predictable computer. There is rarely in Pokemon such a thing as "undeniable best play" because you always have to make assumption of EV spreads, movesets, opponent's strategy and so on. I have no clue why you went on such a weird tangent about chess A.I. in Pokemon but please stop going any further with this, as you are not making any sense.

 

Then on the other point of discussion. Assessing random move powers to things that has no resemblance to canon games is an awful idea. It just makes the whole game look like a hissy-fit thrown by 15-year-old because in their subjective mind something in the original game wasn't right so now thousands of players have to suffer through it, while majority of the playerbase wants to play Pokemon games that at least some way resemble the original games they grew up with. That's why keeping a move with older gen mechanic is much better option than randomly coming up with your own customized power and effect that makes the whole other community just scratching their head.

Link to comment
  • 0
1 hour ago, OrangeManiac said:

There's just so much wrong with this. You clearly have no clue how chess A.I. works and why it isn't applicable to a game like Pokemon. In chess, A.I. can use raw calculating power to calculate every reasonable line to come up with "the best possible move". In Pokemon, there's way too much variability from RNG damage ranges to secondary effects to actually playing the psychological mindgames against your opponent, which they can more easily beat if they know they are playing against a predictable computer. There is rarely in Pokemon such a thing as "undeniable best play" because you always have to make assumption of EV spreads, movesets, opponent's strategy and so on. I have no clue why you went on such a weird tangent about chess A.I. in Pokemon but please stop going any further with this, as you are not making any sense.

 

Then on the other point of discussion. Assessing random move powers to things that has no resemblance to canon games is an awful idea. It just makes the whole game look like a hissy-fit thrown by 15-year-old because in their subjective mind something in the original game wasn't right so now thousands of players have to suffer through it, while majority of the playerbase wants to play Pokemon games that at least some way resemble the original games they grew up with. That's why keeping a move with older gen mechanic is much better option than randomly coming up with your own customized power and effect that makes the whole other community just scratching their head.

Hydreigon and garchomp spend years whitout dm and SD, Gallade also spend some months with a custom calculation in his ability. If they want to do something like giving 10 BP to outrage they will whitout worrying with anything you said, Pokemmo is a customized simulation after all. 100 BP outrage isn't even hard to calculate like Gallade 1,4× buff, it would be just a smart way to balance this move whitout adding the fairy type or making it useless

Link to comment
  • 0
3 minutes ago, SuperBXdanielo said:

Hydreigon and garchomp spend years whitout dm and SD, Gallade also spend some months with a custom calculation in his ability. If they want to do something like giving 10 BP to outrage they will whitout worrying with anything you said, Pokemmo is a customized simulation after all. 100 BP outrage isn't even hard to calculate like Gallade 1,4× buff, it would be just a smart way to balance this move whitout adding the fairy type or making it useless

There is a big difference here. Hydreigon/Chomp had their moves removed so they wouldn't have to be pushed to Ubers, because the devs insisted that no Pokemon should be out of competitive play. Assessing a random power to a move isn't done out of similar necessity to prevent a Pokemon from going to Ubers.

 

Gallade was the first time such arbitrary numerical nerf that has been applied and if you think it didn't cause any controversy then go read even a couple of comments about that whole discussion. It opened this exact can of worms we have right now where people are suggesting random numerical adjustments to things which is just a horrible look and this is exactly many people opposed 1,3x/1,4x Gallade in that discussion.

 

Also, I'm not arguing what the devs will or will not do, I have no power over them neither do I want to have. I'm just arguing what I think makes the game look bad and what doesn't. I've always thought the 1,3x/1,4x Gallade nerf made the game's competitive look bad in that regard but in the end it's their game so they can do whatever they want.

Link to comment
  • 0
4 hours ago, OrangeManiac said:

There is a big difference here. Hydreigon/Chomp had their moves removed so they wouldn't have to be pushed to Ubers, because the devs insisted that no Pokemon should be out of competitive play. Assessing a random power to a move isn't done out of similar necessity to prevent a Pokemon from going to Ubers.

 

Gallade was the first time such arbitrary numerical nerf that has been applied and if you think it didn't cause any controversy then go read even a couple of comments about that whole discussion. It opened this exact can of worms we have right now where people are suggesting random numerical adjustments to things which is just a horrible look and this is exactly many people opposed 1,3x/1,4x Gallade in that discussion.

 

Also, I'm not arguing what the devs will or will not do, I have no power over them neither do I want to have. I'm just arguing what I think makes the game look bad and what doesn't. I've always thought the 1,3x/1,4x Gallade nerf made the game's competitive look bad in that regard but in the end it's their game so they can do whatever they want.

The gallade nerf controversy was not really about the nerf itself, but about the fact that it was made without the supervision of the community together with the 1,4× being weird to calculate. If changing a move for balance is possible, then the outrage buff wouldn't be a problem, especially when we are talking about such a important part of the game like outrage is. A stab CC is the main way to deal damage today, but if we someday get latias, latios, celebi, Slowbro, Creselia and other fighting resistance, wallbreaking will be extremely hard. And if they never add those mons, the game will feel incomplete. But if 120 BP outrage would be broken, 100 BP is the way to go, especially in the future with Jirachi and Heatran to balance the buff. But I curious to know how do you think pvp will look like in the future if it stay progressing in the same way, as you may think that outrage is unnecessary 

Link to comment
  • 0
6 hours ago, SuperBXdanielo said:

The gallade nerf controversy was not really about the nerf itself, but about the fact that it was made without the supervision of the community together with the 1,4× being weird to calculate. If changing a move for balance is possible, then the outrage buff wouldn't be a problem, especially when we are talking about such a important part of the game like outrage is. A stab CC is the main way to deal damage today, but if we someday get latias, latios, celebi, Slowbro, Creselia and other fighting resistance, wallbreaking will be extremely hard. And if they never add those mons, the game will feel incomplete. But if 120 BP outrage would be broken, 100 BP is the way to go, especially in the future with Jirachi and Heatran to balance the buff. But I curious to know how do you think pvp will look like in the future if it stay progressing in the same way, as you may think that outrage is unnecessary 

Wallbreaking IS already difficult with the addition of regenerator amoongus, reactive gas weezing and suicune, you just have to take a look a the top players of the ladder to understand how broken rain stall is, safe switch ins with very little risk and just throwing toxic to anything in front of them and hoping the rival surrenders before 1 hour passes staring at each other.

That's also something I don't get, if pokemmo bases the pokemon movesets on new gens then why does every pokemon learn toxic still? at least they lowered the pp of recover moves (THANK GOD) but whatever, stall is a valid playstyle and I'm not totally against 6 walls as long as they ALL don't have toxic, that's just lame.

If any of you have different opinions on toxic I'd like to know your take on this matter, has it been discussed before? I'm barely starting to interact with the community on this forum so Thank you all for your responses!

PD: If you find my English a bit rough it's because it's not my main language, so sorry for any misspells or weird sentences.

Link to comment

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy.