PLEASE Update Knock Off

[LunarEdge]

Basically I don't understand why it hasn't been updated to how it is in recent games, at this moment having knock off is practically a total waste of a move slot, it is still a 20 power move even when in the official games its 65 and it multiplies up to 1.5 when the target is holding an item, its just a power tweak. This would make knock off a GOOD move to have in consideration when deciding on your move pool, and I know it's not because it's not on the game files, they added reactive gas and sharpness to the game, so maybe knock off was just overlooked, unlike outrage that was nerfed from 120 to 90, that wasn't ignored I guess.

So I just want to know if there is any reason to why knock off hasn't been updated.

Thank you for your time to whoever reading this post 

[RysPicz]

1 hour ago, LunarEdge said:

Basically I don't understand why it hasn't been updated to how it is in recent games, at this moment having knock off is practically a total waste of a move slot, it is still a 20 power move even when in the official games its 65 and it multiplies up to 1.5 when the target is holding an item, its just a power tweak. This would make knock off a GOOD move to have in consideration when deciding on your move pool, and I know it's not because it's not on the game files, they added reactive gas and sharpness to the game, so maybe knock off was just overlooked, unlike outrage that was nerfed from 120 to 90, that wasn't ignored I guess.

So I just want to know if there is any reason to why knock off hasn't been updated.

One, big main reason. Fairy types

[OrangeManiac]

Knock Off is one of the most broken moves ever created. It was a gigantic mistake even on its time but we need to remember that Knock Off always existed in an era where reliably at least one Pokemon could hold an item that couldn't be knocked off. In gen 6, it was mega stones. In gen 7, it was teracrystals. Even having a somewhat reliable switch-in to Knock Off made it still stupidly broken and the most splashable move the game has ever had. Also, like Forfi said the buffed Knock Off has never existed without Fairy-type. All things put together, Knock Off is stupidly broken anyways but we're lacking the few things that can even somewhat keep it from becoming the most brainless and spammable move in the game's history. That's why it's reasonable Knock Off was never touched and updated to newer gen mechanics, unlike many other moves.

[NoEsTuPeo]

Maybe a balance option would be to increase the power to 65 and remove the item, but it won't be increased to 1.5

[SakuyaZ]

Please release fariy type at the same time 🙂

[Imperial]

2 hours ago, SakuyaZ said:

Please release fariy type at the same time 🙂

As much as fairy types are cool, I honestly don't see a reason for MMO to implement this unless they ever decide to introduce gen 6 mons & moves alongside adjusting the steel weakness/resistance chart. Right now the main fairy types we would get would be...

• Clefairy/Clefable
• Azumarill
• Gardevoir
• Togekiss
• Granbull
• Wigglytuff
• Ninetales
• Mr Mime
• Mawile
• Whimsicott
• (and maybe a few more?)

From a PvP perspective, the main meta influencing Pokemon would be Clefable (will likely see a significant increase in usage for OU to deal with dragons), Togekiss, Azumarill and potentially Whimsicott for doubles. I don't really see many mons that would benefit from a PvE perspective.

 

I feel there aren't really any benefits for adding Fairy types right now, and Orange perfectly explained the issue with Knock Off (e.g. In the newer gens CB Crawdaunt with Knock Off is insane, for example).

[RysPicz]

On 4/7/2024 at 1:47 AM, Imperial said:

As much as fairy types are cool, I honestly don't see a reason for MMO to implement this unless they ever decide to introduce gen 6 mons & moves alongside adjusting the steel weakness/resistance chart. Right now the main fairy types we would get would be...

• Clefairy/Clefable
• Azumarill
• Gardevoir
• Togekiss
• Granbull
• Wigglytuff
• Ninetales
• Mr Mime
• Mawile
• Whimsicott
• (and maybe a few more?)

From a PvP perspective, the main meta influencing Pokemon would be Clefable (will likely see a significant increase in usage for OU to deal with dragons), Togekiss, Azumarill and potentially Whimsicott for doubles. I don't really see many mons that would benefit from a PvE perspective.

 

I feel there aren't really any benefits for adding Fairy types right now, and Orange perfectly explained the issue with Knock Off (e.g. In the newer gens CB Crawdaunt with Knock Off is insane, for example).

Ninetales is not Fairy. At least not in MMO (we do not have the Alolan version), so it makes your list a little thinner.

[caioxlive13]

On 4/6/2024 at 8:47 PM, Imperial said:

As much as fairy types are cool, I honestly don't see a reason for MMO to implement this unless they ever decide to introduce gen 6 mons & moves alongside adjusting the steel weakness/resistance chart. Right now the main fairy types we would get would be...

• Clefairy/Clefable
• Azumarill
• Gardevoir
• Togekiss
• Granbull
• Wigglytuff
• Ninetales
• Mr Mime
• Mawile
• Whimsicott
• (and maybe a few more?)

From a PvP perspective, the main meta influencing Pokemon would be Clefable (will likely see a significant increase in usage for OU to deal with dragons), Togekiss, Azumarill and potentially Whimsicott for doubles. I don't really see many mons that would benefit from a PvE perspective.

 

I feel there aren't really any benefits for adding Fairy types right now, and Orange perfectly explained the issue with Knock Off (e.g. In the newer gens CB Crawdaunt with Knock Off is insane, for example).

What about a Knock Off slighty buff? Like, to 40 BP? I believe it still won't be broken, as at best it became a 60 BP with stab or item removal boost, 90 BP with both, and 90 BP already considering stab is not a huge deal. Sure, removing items is great, but with Knock off also exists Trick and Switcheroo with simmilar functions and the bonus of giving a mon a (usually) bad item. The only mon that can really abuse highly from that is Scizor, because the move will be 90 BP for him, rarely being 60, but if becames too broken we can deal with it by a single ban. It will still be the move balanced we know, and with some offenses with enough power being able to use it.

Edited April 9 by caioxlive13

[LunarEdge]

On 4/2/2024 at 6:26 PM, OrangeManiac said:

Knock Off is one of the most broken moves ever created. It was a gigantic mistake even on its time but we need to remember that Knock Off always existed in an era where reliably at least one Pokemon could hold an item that couldn't be knocked off. In gen 6, it was mega stones. In gen 7, it was teracrystals. Even having a somewhat reliable switch-in to Knock Off made it still stupidly broken and the most splashable move the game has ever had. Also, like Forfi said the buffed Knock Off has never existed without Fairy-type. All things put together, Knock Off is stupidly broken anyways but we're lacking the few things that can even somewhat keep it from becoming the most brainless and spammable move in the game's history. That's why it's reasonable Knock Off was never touched and updated to newer gen mechanics, unlike many other moves.

That's a fair take, that still doesn't explain why outrage is not 120 power like in the base games and instead it's 90 base power, barely 10 more power than dragon claw and with the drawbacks of using it it's just not worth it, it's not like we have access to Kyurem Black, the most braindead outrage spammer that doesn't care about resists, or swords dance Garchomp on singles etc... the only big damage boi we have on dragons is haxorus, and, well lets say he has little to no place in OU, he is too slow compared to any other dragon, it is too frail for OU meta and too broken for UU, sad situation.

[RysPicz]

52 minutes ago, LunarEdge said:

That's a fair take, that still doesn't explain why outrage is not 120 power like in the base games and instead it's 90 base power, barely 10 more power than dragon claw and with the drawbacks of using it it's just not worth it, it's not like we have access to Kyurem Black, the most braindead outrage spammer that doesn't care about resists, or swords dance Garchomp on singles etc... the only big damage boi we have on dragons is haxorus, and, well lets say he has little to no place in OU, he is too slow compared to any other dragon, it is too frail for OU meta and too broken for UU, sad situation.

Outrage is 90 BP in PokeMMO, because it's buff was idiotic and made dragons powerful to a degree that they had to introduce the fairy type in Gen6. Having 120 base power Outrage in MMO would be horrible for all of the metagames, regardless if it's singles or doubles.

 

While I do not agree with most decisions made by the dev team, like buffing Gallade and fucking around with it's ability or nerfing Wabba, this is a good decision from their side. As long as we will not have Gen6+ mechanics and pokes, we should never have 120bp Outrage.

[SuperBXdanielo]

2 hours ago, LunarEdge said:

That's a fair take, that still doesn't explain why outrage is not 120 power like in the base games and instead it's 90 base power, barely 10 more power than dragon claw and with the drawbacks of using it it's just not worth it, it's not like we have access to Kyurem Black, the most braindead outrage spammer that doesn't care about resists, or swords dance Garchomp on singles etc... the only big damage boi we have on dragons is haxorus, and, well lets say he has little to no place in OU, he is too slow compared to any other dragon, it is too frail for OU meta and too broken for UU, sad situation.

Would be cool if we had a 100 BP outrage at least, ou is becoming really defensive with every new update (regenerator neutralizing gas weezing Zapdos suicune, heatran jirachi and celebi in the future), and now most of the high elo players are playing defensive teams. We are not seeing any relevant wallbreaker being add any time soon, so a 10 point damage increase in this move would be a interesting way to test if it can help, way better than gallade I think

[caioxlive13]

2 hours ago, SuperBXdanielo said:

Would be cool if we had a 100 BP outrage at least, ou is becoming really defensive with every new update (regenerator neutralizing gas weezing Zapdos suicune, heatran jirachi and celebi in the future), and now most of the high elo players are playing defensive teams..

Or develop an Stockfish to MMO battles, and start using it on ladder because against the high-rated players you has to play perfectly. A slighty innacuracy and he won. At least until now, an IA developed to calculate the best move in a battle is not against any rules since on ladder and on official tours for some reason Coaching is not forbidden. And only official tours, all unofficial ones bans coaching.

Edited April 10 by caioxlive13

[OrangeManiac]

11 hours ago, caioxlive13 said:

Or develop an Stockfish to MMO battles, and start using it on ladder because against the high-rated players you has to play perfectly. A slighty innacuracy and he won. At least until now, an IA developed to calculate the best move in a battle is not against any rules since on ladder and on official tours for some reason Coaching is not forbidden. And only official tours, all unofficial ones bans coaching.

There's just so much wrong with this. You clearly have no clue how chess A.I. works and why it isn't applicable to a game like Pokemon. In chess, A.I. can use raw calculating power to calculate every reasonable line to come up with "the best possible move". In Pokemon, there's way too much variability from RNG damage ranges to secondary effects to actually playing the psychological mindgames against your opponent, which they can more easily beat if they know they are playing against a predictable computer. There is rarely in Pokemon such a thing as "undeniable best play" because you always have to make assumption of EV spreads, movesets, opponent's strategy and so on. I have no clue why you went on such a weird tangent about chess A.I. in Pokemon but please stop going any further with this, as you are not making any sense.

 

Then on the other point of discussion. Assessing random move powers to things that has no resemblance to canon games is an awful idea. It just makes the whole game look like a hissy-fit thrown by 15-year-old because in their subjective mind something in the original game wasn't right so now thousands of players have to suffer through it, while majority of the playerbase wants to play Pokemon games that at least some way resemble the original games they grew up with. That's why keeping a move with older gen mechanic is much better option than randomly coming up with your own customized power and effect that makes the whole other community just scratching their head.

[SuperBXdanielo]

1 hour ago, OrangeManiac said:

There's just so much wrong with this. You clearly have no clue how chess A.I. works and why it isn't applicable to a game like Pokemon. In chess, A.I. can use raw calculating power to calculate every reasonable line to come up with "the best possible move". In Pokemon, there's way too much variability from RNG damage ranges to secondary effects to actually playing the psychological mindgames against your opponent, which they can more easily beat if they know they are playing against a predictable computer. There is rarely in Pokemon such a thing as "undeniable best play" because you always have to make assumption of EV spreads, movesets, opponent's strategy and so on. I have no clue why you went on such a weird tangent about chess A.I. in Pokemon but please stop going any further with this, as you are not making any sense.

 

Then on the other point of discussion. Assessing random move powers to things that has no resemblance to canon games is an awful idea. It just makes the whole game look like a hissy-fit thrown by 15-year-old because in their subjective mind something in the original game wasn't right so now thousands of players have to suffer through it, while majority of the playerbase wants to play Pokemon games that at least some way resemble the original games they grew up with. That's why keeping a move with older gen mechanic is much better option than randomly coming up with your own customized power and effect that makes the whole other community just scratching their head.

Hydreigon and garchomp spend years whitout dm and SD, Gallade also spend some months with a custom calculation in his ability. If they want to do something like giving 10 BP to outrage they will whitout worrying with anything you said, Pokemmo is a customized simulation after all. 100 BP outrage isn't even hard to calculate like Gallade 1,4× buff, it would be just a smart way to balance this move whitout adding the fairy type or making it useless

[OrangeManiac]

3 minutes ago, SuperBXdanielo said:

Hydreigon and garchomp spend years whitout dm and SD, Gallade also spend some months with a custom calculation in his ability. If they want to do something like giving 10 BP to outrage they will whitout worrying with anything you said, Pokemmo is a customized simulation after all. 100 BP outrage isn't even hard to calculate like Gallade 1,4× buff, it would be just a smart way to balance this move whitout adding the fairy type or making it useless

There is a big difference here. Hydreigon/Chomp had their moves removed so they wouldn't have to be pushed to Ubers, because the devs insisted that no Pokemon should be out of competitive play. Assessing a random power to a move isn't done out of similar necessity to prevent a Pokemon from going to Ubers.

 

Gallade was the first time such arbitrary numerical nerf that has been applied and if you think it didn't cause any controversy then go read even a couple of comments about that whole discussion. It opened this exact can of worms we have right now where people are suggesting random numerical adjustments to things which is just a horrible look and this is exactly many people opposed 1,3x/1,4x Gallade in that discussion.

 

Also, I'm not arguing what the devs will or will not do, I have no power over them neither do I want to have. I'm just arguing what I think makes the game look bad and what doesn't. I've always thought the 1,3x/1,4x Gallade nerf made the game's competitive look bad in that regard but in the end it's their game so they can do whatever they want.

[SuperBXdanielo]

4 hours ago, OrangeManiac said:

There is a big difference here. Hydreigon/Chomp had their moves removed so they wouldn't have to be pushed to Ubers, because the devs insisted that no Pokemon should be out of competitive play. Assessing a random power to a move isn't done out of similar necessity to prevent a Pokemon from going to Ubers.

 

Gallade was the first time such arbitrary numerical nerf that has been applied and if you think it didn't cause any controversy then go read even a couple of comments about that whole discussion. It opened this exact can of worms we have right now where people are suggesting random numerical adjustments to things which is just a horrible look and this is exactly many people opposed 1,3x/1,4x Gallade in that discussion.

 

Also, I'm not arguing what the devs will or will not do, I have no power over them neither do I want to have. I'm just arguing what I think makes the game look bad and what doesn't. I've always thought the 1,3x/1,4x Gallade nerf made the game's competitive look bad in that regard but in the end it's their game so they can do whatever they want.

The gallade nerf controversy was not really about the nerf itself, but about the fact that it was made without the supervision of the community together with the 1,4× being weird to calculate. If changing a move for balance is possible, then the outrage buff wouldn't be a problem, especially when we are talking about such a important part of the game like outrage is. A stab CC is the main way to deal damage today, but if we someday get latias, latios, celebi, Slowbro, Creselia and other fighting resistance, wallbreaking will be extremely hard. And if they never add those mons, the game will feel incomplete. But if 120 BP outrage would be broken, 100 BP is the way to go, especially in the future with Jirachi and Heatran to balance the buff. But I curious to know how do you think pvp will look like in the future if it stay progressing in the same way, as you may think that outrage is unnecessary 

[RysPicz]

21 minutes ago, SuperBXdanielo said:

if we someday get latias, latios, celebi, Slowbro, Creselia and other fighting resistance, wallbreaking will be extremely hard.

and that's why we need Terrakion

[JurassicMick]

2 hours ago, SuperBXdanielo said:

And if they never add those mons, the game will feel incomplete

All the Regenerators Hate Club are staring closely at you

[LunarEdge]

6 hours ago, SuperBXdanielo said:

The gallade nerf controversy was not really about the nerf itself, but about the fact that it was made without the supervision of the community together with the 1,4× being weird to calculate. If changing a move for balance is possible, then the outrage buff wouldn't be a problem, especially when we are talking about such a important part of the game like outrage is. A stab CC is the main way to deal damage today, but if we someday get latias, latios, celebi, Slowbro, Creselia and other fighting resistance, wallbreaking will be extremely hard. And if they never add those mons, the game will feel incomplete. But if 120 BP outrage would be broken, 100 BP is the way to go, especially in the future with Jirachi and Heatran to balance the buff. But I curious to know how do you think pvp will look like in the future if it stay progressing in the same way, as you may think that outrage is unnecessary 

Wallbreaking IS already difficult with the addition of regenerator amoongus, reactive gas weezing and suicune, you just have to take a look a the top players of the ladder to understand how broken rain stall is, safe switch ins with very little risk and just throwing toxic to anything in front of them and hoping the rival surrenders before 1 hour passes staring at each other.

That's also something I don't get, if pokemmo bases the pokemon movesets on new gens then why does every pokemon learn toxic still? at least they lowered the pp of recover moves (THANK GOD) but whatever, stall is a valid playstyle and I'm not totally against 6 walls as long as they ALL don't have toxic, that's just lame.

If any of you have different opinions on toxic I'd like to know your take on this matter, has it been discussed before? I'm barely starting to interact with the community on this forum so Thank you all for your responses!

PD: If you find my English a bit rough it's because it's not my main language, so sorry for any misspells or weird sentences.

[SuperBXdanielo]

21 hours ago, LunarEdge said:

Wallbreaking IS already difficult with the addition of regenerator amoongus, reactive gas weezing and suicune, you just have to take a look a the top players of the ladder to understand how broken rain stall is, safe switch ins with very little risk and just throwing toxic to anything in front of them and hoping the rival surrenders before 1 hour passes staring at each other.

That's also something I don't get, if pokemmo bases the pokemon movesets on new gens then why does every pokemon learn toxic still? at least they lowered the pp of recover moves (THANK GOD) but whatever, stall is a valid playstyle and I'm not totally against 6 walls as long as they ALL don't have toxic, that's just lame.

If any of you have different opinions on toxic I'd like to know your take on this matter, has it been discussed before? I'm barely starting to interact with the community on this forum so Thank you all for your responses!

PD: If you find my English a bit rough it's because it's not my main language, so sorry for any misspells or weird sentences.

They don't remove moves

[LunarEdge]

1 hour ago, SuperBXdanielo said:

They don't remove moves

Uhhh, draco meteor hydreigon? swords dance garchomp? even abilities are banned or nerfed like moody and shadow tag, so yeah, they remove moves and have the capacity to do it. only a few pokemon apart from poison types learn toxic on the main games and if they take the original games moveset into consideration tom modify their game why is toxic on every single pokemon still?

[Rache]

15 minutes ago, LunarEdge said:

Uhhh, draco meteor hydreigon? swords dance garchomp? even abilities are banned or nerfed like moody and shadow tag, so yeah, they remove moves and have the capacity to do it. only a few pokemon apart from poison types learn toxic on the main games and if they take the original games moveset into consideration tom modify their game why is toxic on every single pokemon still?

We include as many canon moves for each species as we can within a gen 5 environment. This is why gen 1-2 event moves and PoGo-only moves are available despite not being obtainable in the most recent mainline games, as well as moves that were stripped from learnsets or entirely removed over the generations. If it was canon at any point and the move exists in gen 5, the default is inclusion.

 

Sometimes canon moves need to be taken away for balancing reasons however, most notably Fissure Machamp due to its No Guard ability. Previously this also included moves that resulted in a species being sent to ubers, although we've recently changed our approach for these ones to complex ban the moves instead to allow them in PvE and doubles.

 

We can add or remove anything we want to, but we believe that this is the best way to handle learnsets at this time.

[LunarEdge]

27 minutes ago, Rache said:

We include as many canon moves for each species as we can within a gen 5 environment. This is why gen 1-2 event moves and PoGo-only moves are available despite not being obtainable in the most recent mainline games, as well as moves that were stripped from learnsets or entirely removed over the generations. If it was canon at any point, the default is inclusion.

 

Sometimes canon moves need to be taken away for balancing reasons however, most notably Fissure Machamp due to its No Guard ability. Previously this also included moves that resulted in a species being sent to ubers, although we've recently changed our approach for these ones to complex ban the moves instead to allow them in PvE and doubles.

 

We can add or remove anything we want to, but we believe that this is the best way to handle learnsets at this time.

Even when there are obviously broken things running rampant in the game like sand rush, swift swim, arena trap etc... That conditions the way you team build or you get ran over by these things? How often does balancing gets done when there are pokemon with 56%+ winrate and most of them are used in stall teams with toxic spamming, you just have to take a look at the top 10 OU ladder players to see what's the issue right now.

I have hope that heavy-duty boots will get added so you can at least shift pokemon against stall and not get punished for existing. Sorry for the rant Rache and thank you for taking your time to answer.

Edited April 12 by LunarEdge

[caioxlive13]

2 hours ago, Rache said:

We include as many canon moves for each species as we can within a gen 5 environment. This is why gen 1-2 event moves and PoGo-only moves are available despite not being obtainable in the most recent mainline games, as well as moves that were stripped from learnsets or entirely removed over the generations. If it was canon at any point and the move exists in gen 5, the default is inclusion.

 

Sometimes canon moves need to be taken away for balancing reasons however, most notably Fissure Machamp due to its No Guard ability. Previously this also included moves that resulted in a species being sent to ubers, although we've recently changed our approach for these ones to complex ban the moves instead to allow them in PvE and doubles.

 

We can add or remove anything we want to, but we believe that this is the best way to handle learnsets at this time.

And just a question: If a combination on a mon is deemed broken in a meta, but the two or more moves and/or abilities part of the combination are not broken in the same mon individually, then what is the approach that will be done? Like Wish + Tp on Chansey. Both moves splitted are fine. Having both at same time it's not and people already explained why so i'm not bringing this subject here to avoid extreme derailing. If the TC decides to do actions of those, the combination of those moves will be banned or one of them will be banned?

Edited April 13 by caioxlive13

[Rache]

5 hours ago, LunarEdge said:

Even when there are obviously broken things running rampant in the game like sand rush, swift swim, arena trap etc... That conditions the way you team build or you get ran over by these things? How often does balancing gets done when there are pokemon with 56%+ winrate and most of them are used in stall teams with toxic spamming, you just have to take a look at the top 10 OU ladder players to see what's the issue right now.

PvP decisions like this are largely left to the tier council, who are not currently aiming for a ban on any of these. A strategy being powerful doesn't necessarily mean that it's broken, but you're welcome to try to convince them otherwise here.

 

5 hours ago, LunarEdge said:

I have hope that heavy-duty boots will get added so you can at least shift pokemon against stall and not get punished for existing.

When this was previously brought up with them, they believed that it would overall have a negative impact on the metagame. We trust their judgement so won't be implementing it unless they change their minds.

 

3 hours ago, caioxlive13 said:

And just a question: If a combination on a mon is deemed broken in a meta, but the two or more moves and/or abilities part of the combination are not broken in the same mon individually, then what is the approach that will be done? Like Wish + Tp on Chansey. Both moves splitted are fine. Having both at same time it's not and people already explained why so i'm not bringing this subject here to avoid extreme derailing. If the TC decides to do actions of those, the combination of those moves will be banned or one of them will be banned?

If the tier council has voted to banish a species to ubers, a decision is reached between the tier council and myself (if mechanical changes are involved or new HAs etc are requested) regarding how to resolve the issue to re-enable the species for OU. The goal in these cases is to retain as much viability as possible.

 

Hypothetically if Wish + Teleport + Chansey were a broken combination, I'd assume that the outcome would be either Wish or Teleport complex banned on it as it's a much simpler ruling for players to understand than a combination of two moves being disallowed. Chansey hasn't been a serious topic of discussion in quite some time though, as far as I'm aware it's not a concern right now.