PvE to PvP balance nonsense

[Mike]

3 minutes ago, LuisPocho said:

the art contests count as pvp or pve?

Luis please.... they obviously count for PvP

 

 

Edited December 4, 2016 by TheChampionMike
They don't

[LuisPocho]

9 minutes ago, TheChampionMike said:

Luis please.... they obviously count for PvP

Art tier, ban lucario too cool, too op

[Noad]

1 hour ago, LuisPocho said:

the art contests count as pvp or pve?

Forum contests including art events would be PvE for lack of a better category to put them in.

[Moetal]

3 hours ago, TheChampionMike said:

Luis please.... they obviously count for PvP

 

 

PvJ, actually. Judges are the real enemy here.

[Darkshade]

1 hour ago, FuzzyRegirock said:

I'm sick of waiting to be 100% honest with you, and I can guarantee that many other players feel the same way.

It takes way too long for new events and features to be created in this game, and I think this is mainly because we only have like 1 or 2 people working on them. How long has Kyu been working on dungeons anyways? He said that the idea was introduced and tossed around for 3 years, which is ridiculous. If there was more of a Dev team as opposed to just 1 person in charge of satisfying hundreds of players, then I think that would be more efficient. 

I understand your frustration, but that doesn't mean we're not actively working on adding to end game PvE content and we have actually been building certain parts of the game with such things in mind for quite some time.

See berries as an example.

 

Dungeons have been on the backburner for awhile now, as our attention has been needed elsewhere (as is usually the case).

And whilst Kyu has been primarily working on their map design and features, he hasn't been creating dungeons alone.

As with almost all of our game mechanics, the underlying mechanics and concepts are thoroughly amongst the development team before we commit to anything.

Dungeons have been on the table for about 3 years as you say, meaning we've had lots of time for discussion and roughly outline what we'd like from them.

 

As previously publically established, dungeons will be our way of distributing permanently capturable legendaries within the game; it's absolutely vital that we get this right first time - it's not exactly something we can 'take back' once it's out there.

 

We've also got to take into account lore and how we wish to tie these dungeons or the legendaries within them to the mythos of the world.

So in some ways a lengthy amount of time before release is a good thing.

 

Sorry that it's taking so long, but we're working to deliver something long-lasting and not just something you'll run once and never visit again.

[MirandaKun]

1 hour ago, Darkshade said:

As previously publically established, dungeons will be our way of distributing permanently capturable legendaries within the game; it's absolutely vital that we get this right first time - it's not exactly something we can 'take back' once it's out there.

 

Make it like "sudowoodo" and i see no problem? (Only 1 per char)

[OrangeManiac]

9 hours ago, Squirtle said:

Thanks for clarifying @OrangeManiac as I understand now that it is the same gripe you have had in the past that you believe we host too few PVP events. Let's go look through a little history of the past month to see what numbers we are talking about.

 

Week of October 31st - 4 PVP , 2 PVE , 3 Community PVP

Week of November 7th - 4 PVP , 3 PVE , 3 Community PVP

Week of November 14th - 4 PVP , 2 PVE , 3 Community PVP

Week of November 21st - 3 PVP , 1 PVE , 3 Community PVP

Week of November 28th - 5 PVP , 3 PVE , 3 Community PVP

 

If this is what you call too few PVP events per week you are going to continue to be dissapointed as I will not allow it to get much higher in amount than this per my point in my previous reply.

 

@Eggehard - I will not disassociate PVP and PVE events.

 

The thing is to your average competitive player this number is closer to 2 for the fact that every PvP player cannot participate in all of those events due to different tiers. And no I am not vouching for all OU tournaments so that everyone would play, because diversity is good and the number of dedicated UU and NU players is very large. The key is that it's competitive play and lots of people want to become good at one tier more than being consistently shit at multiple tiers (like me for the longest time). It takes hundreds to thousands of hours to breed goods in one tier and there is only a limited amount of people who enjoy playing all the tiers. You could counterargue what I just by pointing out how easy it is to join PvE events and how that's a good thing. And it is! There is nothing bad about PvE gameplay, there are problems with the current ones.

 

You mentioned that economical effect is not for discussion but I just want to point out one thing I find very important aspect I want to point out about overall economically. The fact you give 3-4 mil prize pools for 64 man officials isn't really economy breaking. If those 64 people did a Hoenn Gym run the overall value given out would be about that 3-4 million as well. I'm aware the good players tend to win more but perhaps balance that even 2nd round onwards gives some money while lessening 1st/2nd place money and consider PvP an alternative and fun way to gain yen instead of farming the Gym trainers for 1000th time who need absolutely no effort to be beaten. And isn't this what you would dream of a Pokemon MMO? That you would actually get value by playing against other players? Now I did acknowledge not everyone likes PvP so it being balanced out against PvE moneymaking is important, just the way it is now.

 

I respect the fact if it's not for discussion, so I'm not gonna talk about it further unless you higher staff want to. I don't want to argue here just for the sake of arguing. The very reason I decided to write everything here is that lots of your higher staff actually do wanna hear us out, especially likes of Noad and Tyrone (rip). The day you higher staff tell us you wanna do things your way without wanting to have any community input is the very day I will stop posting threads like this.

 

[LifeStyle]

@Squirtle We had like a whole month without a NU official, just saying. And don't come telling me it's because of Autumn Series being hosted or something. Also I think I forgot the last time I played an OU, think 2-3 weeks? We need more officials.

 

Edit: Just checked, 18th November - 11th December without a single OU official, lol.

Edited December 5, 2016 by LifeStyle

[elfZ]

I second that, there is missing a REAL PvE endgame content.

 

For ppl who don't want to pvp there is literally nothing else to do aside from breeding, catching shinies (which are VERY grindy) - how long do you think a person can grind same f... patch of grass before he gets bored? Day, two.... week max...running forth and back and forth and back and forth and back and etc and that's a gg for a PvE person - end of PvE content.

 

Second PvE content I would 'call' which is atm MOST exciting is chat and talks about TRUMP and his Mexican walls.

 

That's all there is to it, you can also say well we have Battle Tower/Frintier and e4, whereas e4 rewards are joke (50k gold for 2-3h grind and pay in items ~100k). Even then it gets boring after 30 fights in a row... atm I am doing Battle Frontier 2nd day in a row since I have a goal on making to the top 100 charts, but after I make it there what's next? ;o

 

Literally there is little to none PvE events that are NOT a grindfest, and a person who already grind though entire game sure is not much excited about more grindfest'ing.

 

Now regarding the Legendary Dungeon, I highly doubt that in all this time this concept could not be finished, especially when e4 and Battle Tower all poke combinations were implemented to counter different builds and pokemon along with completed coding for randomization (meaning all you need is to 'borrow" the combinations from these PvE instances) , all that's left is getting NPC and making another reward box (which was done for Halloween event), heck even Halloween had a SUPERBOSS which could of been copy-pased to Legendary Dungeon as a Boss or 1 of couple bosses. THAT'S IT, u have Legendary Dungeon, and don't come here and tell me that DEV was too busy for last 1/2 a year not being able to add those 2 together to make legendary dungeon when all coding IS ALREADY DONE  from previous contents (copy-paste with more copy-paste, and you get any dungeon you want).  

 

So stop BSing and bring the content that was supposed to be done already.

 

Also here is my 2 cents:

 

1. Legendary Dungeon should be both: team and solo mode. Entry fee should be high, either item or items + $ for a chance to get legendary pokes whereas chance to roll legendary from box should be high, IF u finish the dungeon that is (it was promised it will be very difficult dungeon). I would suggest 1 mill + 2 or 10 hard stones or something for entry fee. Every week legendary poke gained from box changes. This way attempts for Legendary dungeon would be seldom and completions even more rare but if you win , legendary dungeon drop box would have a good chance getting Legendary poke. This way it would allow to stop grindfest of battling which can be quite annoying as well and would focus more and 'trying to use up the chance that u have' not just a grindfest battling till you get the wins.

 

2. You can have daily or weekly item hunts whereas you can exchange items for certain prizes from certain NPCS. FOR EXAMPLE: You need to hunt down squirtle with  150 IVs in total to exchange for box that contain squirt hat or something. You can exchange 5 everstones for 1 box of something or for $ (tho I do not recommend $ since ppl will hoard on items and wait).

 

3. PvE content Battler Frontier: 1 week is announced list of pokemon: either 3 specific pokemon or given a list of 5-7 pokemon from which u need to pick 3 pokemon and try to Battle Frontier reach certain level with those pokemon. If u reach u get weekly prize (or prize/event should be done for 3 day duration and change every 3 days or twice a week with 1 day being a break) , if you come in 1st u get extra box that contains event item. This would encourage ppl doing PvE content.

 

4. Ribbon contest is another pve item that noone uses since it's pricy and useless. I bet that given so much staff we have here and if you would take time to brainstorm each for 1h you can think of that event as well, considering that I am not a staff person and I wrote all these ideas down of top of my head even w/out giving much thought. I am confident that with your experience and intelligence and numbers you can DEFINITELY come up solution if you put some effort.

 

Cheers Me, :D

Edited December 5, 2016 by elfZ

[Draekyn]

11 hours ago, OrangeManiac said:

The thing is to your average competitive player this number is closer to 2 for the fact that every PvP player cannot participate in all of those events due to different tiers

To add to that point I'd like to point out that timezones are a thing, e.g. tonight's OU Community Combat is at 1am my time, I have to be up at 6

@Squirtle

5 PvP officials a week doesn't mean all 5 are the tier you play

Doesn't mean all 5 will fit your specific timezone either

[Rendiz]

The main problem I'm seeing is consistency. Typically the number of PvP events starts dipping until people start complaining about it. This then prompts staff to host a bunch all at once usually within a given time-frame and then forget about it again until people start complaining. Using doubles as an example, we were having no tournaments being hosted so we started complaining and then suddenly we had 3 hosted. Somehow I imagine now that we won't get any for a little while since that is the general trend. For some of us we end up having long periods of time where we don't log on the game for long periods of time and forget about the game for a while which kills any and all motivation to play. Another good example is invitationals. While I love invitationals and I think most people do unless it fucks with their timezone, I really don't like how invite tournaments are often considered standard officials. Because of this there are seldom ever any tournaments for that tier hosted at the same time as the tournament which makes it more beneficial to not win an early invite as then you have nothing to do for 8 weeks.

 

Even though the lack of officials does tend to be a problem when you account for different tiers and time-zones and how people aren't able to attend every single one I feel like the bigger problem is the consistency of which they are being posted or more appropriate lack of consistency. We shouldn't have to sometimes wait a month to play a single official, I would personally be fine with lowering the prize money just to have more tournaments.

[DrCraig]

mfw people still are waiting on dungeons

[DoubleJ]

5 minutes ago, DrCraig said:

mfw people still are waiting on dungeons

It's like players from 2012-2013 waiting for Hoenn... and here I am still around for both. 

[RysPicz]

2 hours ago, Rendiz said:

We shouldn't have to sometimes wait a month to play a single official

To visualize this:

Last official I played was Kizhaz's UU where I won Nidoking. During a timespan of a month, there was ONE UU official hosted only. Which didn't really interest me because I already won a Donphan before already and it was a very late hour for me. Another UU official is in 5 days and it's at freaking midnight, but at least it's in Saturday. Has a really shit prize though because Vileplume/ Bello really rely a lot on Hidden Power which is not customizable for us so I prob won't take part in it anyway, don't feel like fucking my sleeping schedule and staying up to 3-4am to get a pretty much worthless prize.

 

Just letting you know how things look like from perspective of a really active competitive UU player who simply does not have opportunities to play, and when he does, either timezone sucks or the prize is raederz-tier.

 

 

@LifeStyle

Now we both got shiny donphans \o/

Edited December 5, 2016 by RysPicz

[XelaKebert]

So the large complaint isn't the balance, but the consistency of ensuring each tier is adequately represented each month from what I can tell. This is something I believe all of us in staff can look at balancing out so that tiers are not under represented, or not at all, in a given month.

 

As for times, there really isn't anything we can do about that. Staff hosted events are held at times when the host, and refs if applicable, can be certain that they will be available, emergencies notwithstanding.

[Eggplant]

34 minutes ago, XelaKebert said:

So the large complaint isn't the balance, but the consistency of ensuring each tier is adequately represented each month from what I can tell. This is something I believe all of us in staff can look at balancing out so that tiers are not under represented, or not at all, in a given month.

 

As for times, there really isn't anything we can do about that. Staff hosted events are held at times when the host, and refs if applicable, can be certain that they will be available, emergencies notwithstanding.

The problem isn't necessarily balance. If you have 1 OU, 1 UU, 1 NU and 1 doubles in a week, it's pretty balanced.

The problem really is that there aren't enough tournaments. Unless you're a highschool student on summer break who's been playing since 2012, there's basically no way you can attend all four tourneys at different times in different tiers (different tiers meaning different prerequisites for entry, unlike PvE which are basically instantly accessible for all).

An average PvP player can prob attend one tourney a week, two at most.

 

For example, in my case, I don't have any UU or NU comps, so i can only play like OU or doubles. ie one or two a week. If one of those tiers isn't hosted that week, or happens to be oceanic, i'm pretty fucked. But there will still be like three PvE events that I can enter.

Your opportunities to enter a tournament that suits your time and skillset are so limited. 

[Tyrone]

I'd like to propose a middle way solution.

Exempt Invitational qualifiers and Team Tournament from the PvP ratio list (As they do not give a shiny prize).

 

[Gunthug]

33 minutes ago, Tyrone said:

I'd like to propose a middle way solution.

Exempt Invitational qualifiers and Team Tournament from the PvP ratio list (As they do not give a shiny prize).

 

The only problem I see with this is that these tourneys still affect the economy because they give cash prizes, and squirtle seems to be primarily concerned with the economic aspect. So I'd anticipate that this is a compromise he wouldn't go for, but I'd love to be wrong  

[Maelstrom]

22 hours ago, Darkshade said:

 

As previously publically established, dungeons will be our way of distributing permanently capturable legendaries...

 

I know nobody cares about what I think, but I completely dislike such idea...

[Gunthug]

Just now, Maelstrom said:

I know nobody cares about what I think, but I completely dislike such idea...

Keep in mind he's likely talking about legends that are more tolerable in competitive play, like the trio of birds and dogs. Dk if this changes your opinion but imo our metagame could really, really use them 

[Munya]

Can't speak for qualifiers but with CC the reason it was able to do that is because it had an entry fee to pay for some of the reward it has, qualifiers have a larger prize pool, an invitation to tournament with a much larger prize, and no entry fee.

[Darkshade]

Just now, Gunthug said:

Keep in mind he's likely talking about legends that are more tolerable in competitive play, like the trio of birds and dogs. Dk if this changes your opinion but imo our metagame could really, really use them 

It's very possible that we'll expand beyond that, with difficulty scaling for each legendary.

[Maelstrom]

5 minutes ago, Gunthug said:

Keep in mind he's likely talking about legends that are more tolerable in competitive play, like the trio of birds and dogs. Dk if this changes your opinion but imo our metagame could really, really use them 

I am not concerned about they being OP or something,

I just find it silly to have ppl running legendaries like they

are normal pokemons...

 

Ubers tier exists for a reason anyway...

Edited December 6, 2016 by Maelstrom

[Squirtle]

23 minutes ago, Gunthug said:

The only problem I see with this is that these tourneys still affect the economy because they give cash prizes, and squirtle seems to be primarily concerned with the economic aspect. So I'd anticipate that this is a compromise he wouldn't go for, but I'd love to be wrong  

You would be correct that I will not be changing it that way due to the prizes given.

[Darkshade]

11 minutes ago, Maelstrom said:

I am not concerned about they being OP or something,

I just find it silly to have ppl running legendaries like they

are normal pokemons...

 

Ubers tier exists for a reason anyway...

Unfortunately I can't go into too much detail, but I hope that our plans for the implementation legendaries satisfy this concern of yours.